#51: Michael Alcee - The Unconscious and All That Jazz

Why do people become lemmings?

What is self-awareness like being a jazz musician?

How can we reframe whistleblowing as leadership!

These and other compelling questions are addressed when therapeutic improvisationalist Dr. Michael Alcee joins The Rabbi and the Shrink.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-alcee-14417755/

https://michaelalcee.com/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkkGPyc3ZmA

2:30 Embrace dissonance to create new forms

Bliss comes often from embracing difficulties and dilemmas

Before we can deal with diversity and multitudes without we have to address them within

We need to confront our inner diversity and contention

We become exiled from ourselves

The lessons of Joseph and his brothers

We have to anticipate how our messages will be deceived

We have to recognize where we’ve gone wrong before we can move forward

12:00  Take inventory

No shortcuts to self-knowledge or knowledge of others

The difference between hurt and hate, between guilt and grievance

Anger is easier than vulnerability but often counterproductive

Why am I feeling anger?  Why are you?

Trauma can’t be talked about, it has to be acted out

Instead of being adversaries, we can heal each other

Seeking the I-thou moment

Mirror neurons -- we’re designed to connect and respond

20:00 How introverts can thrive in groups

We have to know others before we can accurate interpret their behavior

Nurture, nature, or both?

The rule of three is programmed into nature, refuting binary perception

Not good for Man to be alone

28:30  In exile we can discover our own divinity

Being human is like improvising a jazz performance

If we don’t face the changes, we miss the opportunity to create

The wisdom of “yes, and…”

We are a compilation of stories

If you’re listening, you can make something beautiful out of anything

34:00 Why do people become lemmings?

Our two favorite things are stability and change

To question, we have to allow ourselves to not know

Reframe a whistleblower as a leader

It’s easier to vilify than to accept rebuke

44:00  The amputee and the red boot

We want to celebrate what makes it unique

“Who made a bigger mistake today

47:00  The word of the day:  Tmesis 

When the prefix is separated from the simple verb) was an original feature of the Ancient Greek language, also common in Latin, Dutch and German.

A whole nother...(story / kettle of fish / ball game) is an example of tmesis in English.
Colloquial examples include the common "un-[bloody]-believable"
Ned Flanders, a character in The Simpsons: "Wel-diddly-elcome!" 

Interrupting the natural flow brings attention to the content.  Introverts have a natural tendency to look and think deeper, to notice subtlety and nuance; they have less fear of silence, and are often more attuned to new ways of thinking and seeing because they don’t get caught up in the relentless rhythm of life.

Transcript

Margarita Gurri: 0:03

Welcome to the rabbi in the shrink. This is Dr. Margarita Guri, the shrink Dr. Red Shoe, and everyone's favorite rabbi, Yonason Goldson And as usual, the good Rabbi has made a connection with an amazing speaker. His name is Dr. Michael Alcee. And they met during a TED Talk. Welcome, sir. Nice to see you guys. Well, nice to see you. Dr. Alcee has won an award that I've never met anyone who's won, it's the American Psychological Association's 2019 schellenger Memorial Prize. And it had and his title is the unconscious and all that jazz. Improvisation is the essence of psychoanalysis. And we'll make sure to, to ask him about that. The cool part about this is here's a guy who's having fun doing what he does. And, and Rabbi, isn't that what ethics is all about? Really, just being true to who we are.

Yonason Goldson: 2:24

I think that it does have to do with our relationships, ultimately. And if our relationships are not bringing joy to us, then there's something wrong. So I'm I'm eager to hear what you can have what you have to tell us. Dr. Alcee?

Michael Alcee: 2:42

Yeah, I think ethical dilemmas are the stuff of creative life, right? We certainly need to embrace and lean into the distance dissonances in order to create new forms. And that is exactly what gives us the joy and fulfillment. Because we're the most joyful, I think when we're creating, you look at it spiritually, it's like we become like gods when we create. And that gives us a sort of abundance, which Joseph Campbell said about talking about following our bliss. But ironically, our bliss often comes from dealing with the difficult stuff, embracing the difficult the ethical dilemmas. And by having that consciousness, we can embrace the multitudes.

Margarita Gurri: 3:26

So containing the multitude, what is that title all about? Help us understand.

Michael Alcee: 3:33

So poet, Walt Whitman said in Song of Myself, do I contradict myself very well, then, I am large, I contain multitudes. And the ironic part is, we so often get hung up on dealing with diversity outside of ourselves, when we are extraordinarily diverse inside, we have multitudes inside that we're fighting with all the time. And that's usually why we also get into problems with others, because they're bringing up all that stuff inside. Like I like to think about it. Wellness is and and ethical. Creativity is an inside job. Right.

Yonason Goldson: 4:11

You know, it's really interesting that we phrase that because you're, you're echoing an idea that I've talked about at length, but you're you're articulated in a way that I really never thought of it before. I like to talk about the inherent paradox or contradiction of the human condition that we have to live short term, short term focus to reach long term goals were individuals living in a society where we needed that people were spiritual beings trapped in the physical world that you you articulated in terms of diversity. We are internally diverse, and in the same way that we want to celebrate our cultural diversity, because our differences make us stronger. Our internal diversity is something we should celebrate. So I really, I really liked the way that you framed that it's really intriguing.

Michael Alcee: 4:59

Thank you. interesting I like about a shoe is it you know, we all talk about how we want to promote inclusivity and diversity, that sometimes we don't even look at ourselves and how we can other aspects of ourselves. And as we know, Dr. Rabbi, the most challenging part that people have this for Xiling from themselves, right, I can't feel my sadness, I can't feel my anger, I can't feel my pride, or this conflicts with some other side of me. And really learning about how to embrace diversity outside comes from learning to embrace diversity inside.

Margarita Gurri: 5:37

So well put, and so many people are so busy trying to change who they are, rather than really learning to love what they're stuck with, and making it an asset.

Michael Alcee: 5:48

Yeah, well, it's funny because it's funny because, you know, in in the Judeo Christian, you know, we sort of can become exiled from ourselves. And in a way we talk about marginalizing others, we can, one of the things that we know Dr. From people coming into our offices is that most people marginalized parts of themselves. Yep. And one of the things I love about some of your work both of you is that you talked about how this can be really fun getting to work on these dilemmas like I love your title wrapped by ethics ninja, it's like so cool. It's like you can use this to have fun with it and get your strength and power from it. And it makes me think of one of my favorite biblical stories that I want to share with the rabbi here is the story of Joseph and the, you know, multicolored coat. He starts with that as a gift from his father, and he shows it to his brothers. And he tells them about his dream where they're bowing down to him, and they miss perceive it as him being boastful. What actually, he's sharing that he's connected to this wonderful gift and this light that he can embrace. And then of course, they get jealous and throw him in a pit because they can't stay with their own lack their own desire to have more of what he has. And, you know, in this, this dilemma that goes on between them, you see this back and forth between how do we deal with these difficult sides of ourselves? And I love your stuff. Dr. Gray, I love when you talk about misbehavior. misbehavior is misplaced desire. Yes, misbehavior is displaced, hurt, and displaced. Fear. And of course, when anything is missed, or dis it's not creative. Creativity involves the symbol, which from the Greek means to throw together rather than what's diabolical, which is to throw a park. So one of the reasons I love the story of Joseph by the way, of course, Doctor, you know what's really cool about it for us as therapists, Joseph, even Freud, rescue this in the interpretation of dreams. Joseph was essentially the first therapist in modern history, he analyzes dreams, he ministers to somebody that he meets in prison, his eyes is the Pharaoh. And he is has a vision that helps people do their soul work. So I've always had a strong connection to Joseph. And one of the lovely pieces of the story, as you might know is that when his brothers come to him later, because there's a famine, instead of taking, you know, revenge or retaliation, he embraces them. And I think what we learn from that is that we all have these ethical dilemmas, but we have to work together to transcend them.

Margarita Gurri: 8:40

There is a cartoon that was made of this story, Joseph and his coat that's very accessible for children of all ages. And when I was a child, the story was told with a lot of guilt and shame being Catholic. We're good at this. And we'll be here. Yeah, well, yeah, you too. I mean, really. But what I like about this cartoon is it talks about with compassion, both sides of the story, all sides of the story. And it introduces this idea of that. It's how we look at something that makes a difference, right by what do you think? I think you're one of the most fun minds I've met.

Yonason Goldson: 9:17

Well, I could spend the rest of the episode talking about the story of Joseph and entity because it came up in our last, our last interview in a different context. But you honed in on one point, Michael, that what Joseph does is he goes to the brothers, and then the Scripture he calls him a lab or a youth because he was immature, and his inability to understand it's not just what you say it's how you say it. Yeah. You have to anticipate the way a message will be received. And he lacked the sophistication to do that. And clearly he learns his lesson. Yeah, because he's an interpreter of dreams as a council. And when the when the brothers do show up, he doesn't make nice with them right away, he puts them through a tremendous amount of angst, yeah. communicates to them. By allowing them and thinking of as a therapist, I think it's a road, brilliant way of looking at, he puts them in a situation where they will come to the realization of what they did wrong. And eventually, that's what happens, his brother Judas steps forth, and he says, I will take the place of a Benjamin. And then Joseph can't hold himself back. He has to step forward, he has to reveal himself because he sees that amends have been made, and that it's time to move forward. And there's this tremendously, emotional reconciliation. That only is possible. If we're willing to recognize where we've gone wrong, and be guided to understand how to address the mistakes we've made, how to correct them, and how to move forward.

Margarita Gurri: 11:16

And gentlemen, we have with us, hidden in secret in the world of the internet. Julie, your sister, your older sister, who says nice things about you, which is always nice. When a sibling says nice things about

Michael Alcee: 11:30

me in a pit, I suppose. Yeah. I think

Margarita Gurri: 11:33

it's better than that. Yes, for sure. So important rabbi, she says how the message is delivered. And I think who better than a woman whose baby Brother's here with us today?

Michael Alcee: 11:44

Yeah, and I love that, that analysis of a rabbi to about that different way of the testing. And I think what's beautiful about it, two of what you guys have been talking about as well is that to do this work, you have to really go in inward. Yeah, and you can't take shortcuts with it. You know, both sides do interesting things to really look at take inventory. And the other thing is like we come in with gifts, we come in with gifts, but we also come in with things that need to be honed and developed. Yes. And that's also part of our creative work. It's not just to say, to rest on our laurels of what we're good at, or what comes naturally to us. And I think that's also what helps us get through these ethical dilemmas. Also, I think another point that you made Rabbi too, is to, to, to stay with the hurt a little bit more, we live in a culture that gets too quick to go to the hate, or the outrage or the grievance but doesn't get into the hurt. And and I think if we follow the follow the hurt, not the hate, that helps us to open up into something deeper.

Yonason Goldson: 12:50

Can you develop that a little bit? I'd like to hear more about that.

Michael Alcee: 12:53

Yeah, I mean, so it's easy for us to get outraged on Twitter, or Facebook or, you know, in conversations about what we're angry about, or what we feel really emotional about. And usually that's a place of power, because we can feel powerful and in control with anger, it's a lot harder to go into the vulnerability. And it's not that we shouldn't feel the anger. But we should use it as information to say there's something else here. Because anger covers over shame. Anger covers over fear. And to the extent that we can get past shame and fear, we can start to get creative again. And then we can start to get creative with each other again. And oftentimes we push each other's buttons in hitting those places of pain, fear and shame. But because we don't understand who I'm dealing with, because remember, I'm dealing with your multitudes, and you're dealing with mine, and you don't know which character you're speaking to, you don't know which character you're hurting, you don't know which character you're shaming. So it takes a lot of inner work to be able to notice that but also takes a lot of inner work rabbits to what you said to which was Josef's issue. And this is a brilliant point. Joseph didn't know how to speak to when he was speaking to the right audience and which audience and how to pitch it to one audience versus the other. He didn't realize that his brother was misperceive him as trying to make them feel smaller. And saying, Look at me, I'm the big guy, I'm the God that you're going to bow down to. So anticipating where someone might be hurt, or might be missing something is really important.

Yonason Goldson: 14:32

In terms of practical response. What I hear you saying is that if I feel the sense of anger, I should ask myself, why am I reacting to this? This way? What does it say about me? Where's it coming from? And when I see that you're getting angry. I should ask myself, why are you responding that way? Yeah. As opposed to simply matching anger with anger. Yeah. Or, or indulging the feelings of Anger and outrage and injustice, to try to go deeper to get to the root, Where's this coming from? Because then we can diffuse it. Is that doctor would you say that say? Yeah,

Michael Alcee: 15:11

exactly. Exactly. And the other thing too is what happens is we also have to see, usually the reason that issues are so combustible these days, or radioactive, is because they hit on a place of individual or collective trauma. And instead of us being able to talk about it, we act it out. Right. And sometimes it's usually about something that's important to my identity, no matter what side of the aisle, whether it's Republican or Democrat, whether it's Black Lives Matter, or, or some other group on any side of the spectrum, it's going to hit a place to trauma and trauma can't be talked about. Trauma has to be acted out until we can find a form for it. And what you're saying there rabbi is really important that we need each other to put this into words. That's why therapy works. Because we can't do this alone. That's why going to the rabbi helps. That's why going to clergy helps, because we need someone to help us put forward to this through a relationship. That's how we're built as human beings. And you're right, that it's important. Once we follow the herd, then it's almost like we have two pieces of this treasure map. And we each need to put it together to find the treasure together. And the beautiful part is then instead of being adversaries, instead of being people who are re traumatizing each other, we are helping repair sort of tikkun olam, which is like healing the world, we are healing each other. And then we have these wonderful surprises where we discover something new about ourselves or each other. And all of a sudden we feel it. And that's what you know. So the rabbi knows this, and, and Dr. Gnosis, it's an eye Val moment. It's a moment of deep communion, which is one of the most beautiful moments in therapy or either moments where all of a sudden, we feel individual but connected at the same time. And something almost like there's a third thing in the room that links us. It's like that beautiful picture of God with Adam. Yeah, interesting part is not the fingers. It's the space between. Yes, and that's the creative space. And when we can transform polarization into creativity, we are not only healing it, we are creating new force. And it takes a capacity to learn how to improvise, and also know who you're playing with. Like a musician has to know we what genre Am I playing? And what am I playing within the band? And am I listening, as well as playing?

Margarita Gurri: 17:41

Seeing that's why I'm a misbehavior expert. Because I learned a long time ago, where there was conflict, or some sort of tension, there is a possibility, because so I've worked with the military for years. And one thing I learned in dealing with them for them, anger is often a default, because you have pride and shame, rather than think about all the feelings you're feeling just because they anger. And so sometimes I'm angry, and you're angry, and as BoomBoom give it the same. And it takes a lot of leadership and a lot of self reflection and discipline, to be able to look at somebody and say they're angry, I wonder why how have I contributed to this or not. And then to be able to get to that next level where you can open up not only the connection to creativity within each of us, but you know that that non touching is like a synapse, there's no touching. Exactly. So to get to that point,

Michael Alcee: 18:43

yeah. And that's the space where it happens. And Rabbi like, I think the other thing too, that you, you know, they say there's the strongest person in a way, there's a Jewish phrase of the strongest man or strongest person and really is somebody who can master their emotions. And that doesn't mean pushing them down. It means learning how to work with them. And and this is sort of how we're built. And the other thing that I just want to give compassion for all of us is we have these things called mirror neurons, which makes which make us feel exactly what the other person is feeling. So we're built to feel this very quickly. But we also have to work with our neurobiology to remember Hey, wait, okay, this is bringing me into like the undertow. But I got to swim parallel to get back to shore. Don't let the undertow take you.

Margarita Gurri: 19:27

Yeah. And you got to know what's them and what's us. So, I thou, but to know what's the difference? So is the anger yours that I'm picking up or is it mine?

Michael Alcee: 19:37

Yeah. Well, which which multitude? Is it? Is it yours? Is it mine? Is it this overlap? Yeah.

Margarita Gurri: 19:43

It's interesting. Wow. It's fascinating. So tell us about the introverts. I think you're doing something in a space that I think will make a lot of people sit up and notice because a lot of people in ethics are very introverted. Not all of them, but many art. And I think you came up with a way of looking at introverts in a way that can facilitate anyone not only to feel good about themselves, but to move forward in a strong and creative way. So tell us about your journey with introverts.

Michael Alcee: 20:16

It was sort of an accident, like Bob rock paintings, you know, it's like, oh, look, there's a happy tree. And I was trying to form a new group in the college that I was working at. And I was like, I want to do something different. So I was like, you know, there's a lot of introverts in that I was seeing individually. And I'm like, Wouldn't it be great if they got to talk to each other and see how wonderful they are, and how a lot of their anxiety and depression has nothing to do with really having a problem, just not knowing how their work or how the culture works against them. And I put up these posters that said, like introverts unite, in small groups for a limited period of time. And my colleagues laughed at me thinking that nobody would show but it was I was delightfully surprised that it was the most popular group I've ever run. It was consistent. They were engaged, and they really thrived. And I saw that in individual therapy, they did so much better. And I thought, Wow, it's so funny that a psychologist we forget, we have this sort of one size fits all approach. And we never ask somebody like, how do you get your energy? Do you get it by going in? Or do you get it with people, you get it by a combination. And you think that would be something like sort of like taking a blood test for a doctor that you would do. And yet a lot of the folks coming in had this kind of shadow anxiety and depression that had nothing to do with typical anxiety or depression. And that's what I thought we, even though Susan Cain wrote this wonderful book quiet, it hasn't, it hasn't found its way into therapy circles. And I thought, well, this is interesting. And then I have reflected on myself being an introverted extrovert. Well, we call it ambivert. And realize, oh, my gosh, it makes so much sense. And so many of us therapists are introverted extroverts, because we love going inward. We like that one on one. But we also like the social connection. And so I thought, Wow, we got it. We got to talk about this as a culture. I heard your

Margarita Gurri: 22:11

TED Talk talks about that brilliantly. Sorry, Rabbi, then that's where you two met on the TED Talk stage rabbi?

Yonason Goldson: 22:18

Yeah, I heard a study where they they played music in a in the nursery in the hospital room, infants, they were still just born their words. And the the babies that seemed to be more agitated by the, by the music, they tracked them and, and they typically developed into introverts. Yeah, and the and the ones that were more comfortable with the music typically developed into extroverts and and it was very interesting to me, because I, I am in a mixed marriage. My wife's an extrovert.

Michael Alcee: 23:01

I'm going to mix marriage to wow, yeah.

Yonason Goldson: 23:04

But you know, it's, it's, it does present some challenges, because my wife will have the radio cranked up and I'm on the other side of the house, thinking, Can you please turn that or we're sitting together, and I'm very comfortable with silence, and she feels like I'm ignoring her. And so we have to work. And this is after almost 34 years of marriage, we have to work at remembering who the other person is, and not interpreting someone else's behavior or going back to our previous conversation based on my perceptions or my feelings, but rather understanding this person is coming from a different place. And when we do have that awareness, then we can start recognizing that the different styles we can start trying to accommodate I can be a little more outcome, a outgoing forthcoming, she can be a little more accepting of my, my need for space and quiet, and then the relationship will thrive. Whereas if we are imposing our expectations on the other, that we're going to be bumping into each other quite a bit.

Michael Alcee: 24:19

And again, looking at the multitudes, right, we we forget, and I love what you said too, and you don't want to hear the funny problem that we have every piece of progress is also makes us lose something. And us therapists did a wonderful thing. We taught people to look at their environment and say, Wow, your environment really shapes you from Freud, beyond boy look at nurture. Look at nurture, it's so important. And what happened is we forgot about nature. And, you know, used to be in the old days that we talked about nature a lot more maybe to the exclusion of looking at nurture and we need to bring them together. We are we are a combination of who we are as individuals within the And we are working with a nurturer to figure out how we match. And again, that's how we make music.

Yonason Goldson: 25:06

Right, that cuts to the heart of ethics. I mean, ethics is about not looking at the world in a binary way. Yeah. Oh, is it nature? Or is it nurture? Well, to use a common expression, da? Obviously, it's both. Well, that's where the, you know, we try to limit it to one or the other. Because it's just the mix. It's anything simpler than dealing with the complexities of

Margarita Gurri: 25:33

diversity is very inconvenient, it makes you think. It's tough. And people don't always want to think

Michael Alcee: 25:39

carefully. You know, in music, what's interesting, too, I love what you're saying, See, we like to think about biners. But really interesting happens happens in threes, whether it's the Holy Trinity and the Catholic side, right, or whether it's like what I was talking about with fingers, or if you look at music, it's the third of the chord that determines whether it's major or minor or anything else. This third is what gives it its color. Without that, it really can be pretty bland.

Yonason Goldson: 26:09

Colors. Yeah.

Michael Alcee: 26:11

So we really, we really want to court it. But it also it brings up tension and stress. And it's not easy, because we do like to go to the default of resolving things simplistically. And, you know, from, you know, Daniel Kahneman, like talking, we like to resolve things with shortcuts. And it's understandable. That's why I think being ethical, I think that's what's so important about all religious paths is they say, Listen, this has to be cultivated in practice, there's some part of this, that is the default, you're born empathic, hopefully, but it has to be nurtured and cultivated, and you can't do it alone, you have to do it. The wonderful thing about Judaism too, is that you have to do it in a community. That's also why you need a minion of 10 men, because, you know, 10 men is what are needed, or 10 people are needed in order to if if the world had to start from fresh, you need 10 people to start the world fresh again. You know, or in other words, like, from from one of the stories, I'm probably miss remembering it. But but but there's some idea too, that we can't be ethical without working together and figuring it out together. We can't do this alone. And yet, we also have to be very able to look at ourselves, honestly, yeah, with who we really are, what we really feel what we really think, and then use others to not only bounce off to understand ourselves, because that's the other paradox of being human. As we know, in our sessions, Doctor is like, in order to become fully human, you actually have to have others reflecting back. Yes. And we become ourselves through others,

Yonason Goldson: 27:47

and get theological for just a moment, please, you know, when it when God created Adam, there's some ambiguity in the in the verse there. It says he created them before he actually created woman. And the mystics tell us that originally, Adam and Eve existed in one body. Hmm. There was a male and a female face, that's meant literally spiritually, and why was it not good, that man should be alone. Because there has to be interplay, like, we have to see each other and the male and the female side, which represent the two different aspects of the human being. They have to exist separately, so that they can deal with the tension in order to come together and create a new unity. And that's what harmony is. And that's why we're greater than the sum of our parts. And that's why you need a society. And we need other people. Because as you say, we can't do it alone.

Michael Alcee: 28:53

I love that. I love that that's so beautiful. I you know, it's also beautiful about it, too, when Adam and Eve are thrown out of the garden, so to speak, right? It's the most terrible thing in some ways, because they're no longer immediately connected to God in nature. But the beautiful thing is that then they can have a child. And then Adam can name the world. And so we see language, you know, as something of a creative act, but also the birth of a child as being a creative act. And so part of the tension of being human is that we can't be Gods per se, but we can emulate and we can get close.

Yonason Goldson: 29:34

And we can strive

Michael Alcee: 29:37

and we can make something in that space that's beautiful. Even amidst the tension, even a mix being exiled, even amidst sometimes feeling disconnected.

Margarita Gurri: 29:48

So one of the things I like that you're doing in your work doctor, that's very practical, is you look at those aspects of self that makes someone introverted are different in other ways, and We look at how not to exile them within themselves or from the outside, but to ask, what is it about this person? What do they need? What do I need? What do you need? What do they need, and move forward knowing that these inconvenient differences are the the richness, they are the blessing, they are the opportunity, and to not look at things as that's a problem that's healthy. That's not obviously in some jobs, you want introverts and in some extroverts, some embers, some jobs, you want a little bit of everything. So looking at it that way, I think you've helped people go beyond being stuck with the prejudices of diversity. And think of it as one more aspect. This is Secrets of Success.

Michael Alcee: 30:48

Yeah, I'm so you mean? Yeah. So it's interesting. I was thinking, as you were talking, like, one of the interesting things about being fully human is to be like a jazz improviser. And notice that life brings all these changes at us. So I love you know, Mr. Rogers, young Mr. Rogers, in the documentary about him, he's playing at the piano. And he says, You know, I think the hardest thing what I'm trying to do is help kids deal with the modulations of life. Because it's really hard to go from like, see, it's easy to go from C to F, but F to F sharp. Now, that's a little bit more difficult. And it seems to me that you need someone to help you weed through these things. Yes. And I think, you know, in this global pandemic, we've seen it even more keenly, like, what is it like to deal with major changes? And how do we approach these changes in a creative way, and also recognize the strain of it, it's sort of like that David Bowie, like turn and face the strange, like, changes are not easy. But if we don't turn and face, we miss out on the opportunity to do something interesting. And interestingly enough, like that's a skill that I think sometimes we don't teach enough, right, in school or in the family like that, this kind of emotional improvisation is crucial. Like an actor who learns improv, the key rule of the cardinal rule of improv, you probably know, right, is yes. And so if you tell me that you're talking about a phone, I don't say that's not a phone, that's a hammer, I say, yes, it's a phone and I go along with it. And we make something together. And the thing that helps us come through difficult changes, instead of trying to deny it or push it away, what can I do with this? How is this an invitation to deepen something in myself or with another? And it's the same with like, getting to know whether you're introverted or extroverted or all the different sides of you, and all the different stories in you. Because I think one of the things we forget is that we are a conglomeration of all these different stories. And these, you know, we think of ourselves as one self. So, the great poet Pablo Neruda said, Of the many men I am whom we are, I cannot settle on a single one. Because, in fact, we are all many. And once one when we when he talks about when I want to be the hero, I am, in fact, the coward. When I want to be the firefighter, it turns out, I'm the arsonist. And so we're all wrestling with these diverse sides of ourselves that are tricky and difficult. But once we understand how to listen to the music, we're like, Hmm, which changes are coming up. And there's this great jazz vibraphonist named Stefan Harris, and he did this great TED talk and he said, there are no mistakes on the bandstand. And the reason there are no mistakes is because if you're listening, you can make something interesting out of anything.

Margarita Gurri: 33:48

Wow. That's, that is absolutely beautiful. And that cool? It is, it is and I'm also wondering, in terms of ethical missteps, is missing this what are your thoughts on why so many people I don't know a nicer way of saying it become Lemmings and just follow along something that seems popular but is truly not an ethical pretty thing. You know, it's unethical. What happens to those lemmings when we all can be lemmings at times, but what happens what why does that happen?

Michael Alcee: 34:28

Yeah, that's a really interesting point. I think again, have compassion with yourself. So the two things I once heard Tony Robbins speak at a psychotherapy conference. It was a high octane performance like usual and but one of the things that he said that I thought was brilliant was we human beings love two things the most stability and change. So the stability often wins out in I'd rather go with something or rather go with some authority or something else that I can immediately understand, rather than stay through the ambiguity and uncertainty, we don't like uncertainty we don't like not knowing.

Margarita Gurri: 35:07

We don't. And we're afraid of getting in trouble. So I see it in organizations when I'm consulting with them. People have done it. Oh, there's an ethical or legal Oh, and they call me or call someone like the rabbi, or you. And one of the questions is, is the one person that speaks up is called a whistleblower, rather than a leader? Yeah. And how is it that we can change cultures? So that we can flow with the modulations of ethical wisdom or owes? And what is it? So how can we facilitate people having that beautiful harmony of improvisation and discord? from jazz to everyday like the ethical, the ethical jazz position? What can we do? Let's say we're individuals, or we're an organization, what can we do?

Michael Alcee: 35:59

I think the rabbi said it really, most brilliantly, we're talking about Joseph, which is we have to learn how to kind of think outside the box, like you said, and make adjustments, but we also have to know what audience we're working with, and where they're at. And we need to pitch are in other words, when you're playing with with other players musically, you want to introduce new ideas, but you also want to bring out what you've heard from them. And and and weave it in so that you can come together and start working. You know,

Margarita Gurri: 36:28

that, in fact, is one of the things we have to teach organizations that are that are having trouble with whistleblowers, we have to change the culture so that we value someone say, hey, let's push back on that. No, that's let's look at this in another way. Everyone's saying this. Is there another way of looking at it? Have you missed the point?

Michael Alcee: 36:49

Right, yeah. And the other thing, too, is remember, it's attention with the whistleblower and the vested interest of where things are at the status quo. And

Margarita Gurri: 36:58

Mr. asks, Why do the lemmings scapegoat the whistleblower,

Michael Alcee: 37:02

because, remember, the whistleblower is doing something creative, which is dangerous, and makes us uncomfortable. And people prefer the comfort of stability, even if it means complacency, to the discomfort of, of creativity. So Salman Rushdie, the great novelist, said that creativity is sort of at the boundary between what's safe and the cliff like the precipice, right. And in order to be a creative person, in order to even be creative employee, you're questioning things. And in order to question that means that you have to allow yourself to not know, and lots of times individuals organizations would prefer to know or be in control, we have this strong, it's interesting, as human beings, we have this strong propensity to want to be super in control, which is wonderful. And it's actually for our survival. But the downside is, it doesn't allow us to be more open, that we're just temporarily not going to know. So this law was simple Barska, the great Polish poet when she won the Nobel, the Nobel for her work. So the job of the poet is to say, I don't know and to keep on going. Now, most people don't keep on going. And it's easy to then say, Oh, I don't like you the whistleblower, because you're making me think about something that I'd rather not. That's why the best whistleblowers are the best people who create new innovations do so in a way that can also be digested. Right, you can, um, I want to play you a little clip here of

Margarita Gurri: 38:38

a museum shoe that I wanted to comment. Yeah, go for it. Rabbi had said that, and Julie had said, it just depends on we have to learn how to speak to particular audiences. So I have to measure what I'm saying and whistleblower, even if they say things very well, and in a measured way, a lot of times everyone's so glad, then they can attack the whistleblower, because it's me, not me. Not me. I didn't know it was them. And so that they don't want to support the whistleblower. They hope the whistleblower does it on their own. So one of the key elements in any organization, if you can reframe the whole story of a whistleblower to a new leader, or an emerging thread in improvisation, and I love that language, and Rabbi You and I can work on other ways to give people practical ways to get that. All right back to you.

Michael Alcee: 39:31

You want to hear something and blow your mind. Dr. Red Shoe,

Margarita Gurri: 39:33

you already blew my mind. I want to hear more. Yes,

Michael Alcee: 39:36

that's a good Catholic. I hope this doesn't offend you. But Jesus was the best whistleblower there was. Yes. Right. If you think about it, one of the reasons that that what he did was revolutionary was called to account what the Pharisees were doing and what was going on in the society. And in fact, what's interesting too, is that he looked at the marginalized completely and he said, Let the one who was free from sin cast the first stone to say None of us are impervious, none of us are immune from doing wrong. That's what makes us human. But instead of saying you are now exiled, it says, now we can make a space for you because there's a path back. That's the creative path. And so it's hard because the whistleblower is like the prophet in the Jewish, Abraham, Joshua Heschel wrote this beautiful book on the prophets. And he talks about the being a prophet is seeing some in the society that's not seen yet. And you're calling account. But you're largely alone, because you're not in the majority view. And the

Margarita Gurri: 40:37

the goal is to give people the skills to see and behave in such a way, so they don't sacrifice the whistleblower,

Michael Alcee: 40:45

of course, because it's easier to again, scapegoat, something that is too different and difficult to assimilate.

Margarita Gurri: 40:52

It's scary. But it's also just lack of skill.

Yonason Goldson: 40:56

Now, when you go back to the issue of change, you know, it makes a great campaign slogan. But as my wife likes to say, the only thing that really likes changes a baby's diaper. Now this is this is why you have the loving effects. Yes, we can all talk about how much we want change. But really, we want things to stay the same. And we mentioned before that in Hebrew, the word for rebuke has the same root as the word for validation. Hmm, that's what I rebuke. You. What I'm saying is I trust in you that you have the ability to do better. And the sages say, Love rebuke. Well, how much of us love rebuke. It's our egos are on the line. It's uncomfortable. And we have to reevaluate. We're gonna have to admit we were wrong. But that's the only way progress happens. And I often like to say, what would I rather have happened when I rather recognize that I'm wrong, so I can correct What's wrong, or persist in being wrong. When that says one as long term consequences,

Margarita Gurri: 42:07

we had Dr. Helen turn valon who address that issue. She said that we hire for diversity, but then train and lead for the same. So yeah, we've hired people with diverse backgrounds, diverse knowledge, diverse ways of thinking. And then somehow we don't continue to reward that. So we default back to somehow that person's the problem. We don't want to hear what they say. We vilify them, we crucify him and the story, it's fascinating, how not,

Michael Alcee: 42:37

that's where the Inside Job helps, because the more that we're connected to understanding the the part of ourselves that can't be a whistleblower inside, the more we get comfortable with being curious about it. And the more we can be curious and compassionate. Rumi has this great poem called guesthouse. And he says, you know, this being human is a guest house and let let the guests come in, even if it messes up your house, because it could be a guide from beyond. And what we don't know yet might be something that gives us something really interesting.

Margarita Gurri: 43:10

The organizations I've seen that are the most innovative, are the ones that get excited about change, and then the implementation, and then the park, people forget the measurement of the impact of that implementation. And then the next group of what can we do even better, so they don't see it as an end? They see it as the beginning of the next Coltrane riff, right?

Michael Alcee: 43:30

It's like a writer or writers thing and revising. Yeah. And they know that the revision process makes makes more interesting things happen. And then new things emerge that add to it, and sometimes not subtract from it.

Margarita Gurri: 43:43

And not to see it as failure, but to see as part of the process. That's, that's brilliant. I love your Coltrane thing. Thank you.

Michael Alcee: 43:49

Yeah. And I have a special surprise for you. It's actually piggery. So I know the story about the red shoes. And I wanted to share with you a story of another special woman who also appreciated red shoots. So there's this wonderful story of a young woman who had polio when she was a child. And then when she was a teenager, she was in a terrible bus accident and all her life she struggled with pain. And unfortunately, later in life, she she had, like I said she had polio, she had this accident. And when she was I think her mid 30s She had to have her leg amputated. Oh, because of gangrene and but ever the person to kind of keep connected to her creativity and her spunk and her spirit. She decided that when she was going to have a prosthetic made that it was going to have a red blue tie gating,

Margarita Gurri: 44:45

though.

Michael Alcee: 44:46

And you know who this woman was No. Painter Frida Kahlo. Really? Yeah. And I think what it says to us and I think what we're talking We're here today to is that we don't want to lose a connection to our brilliance, whether it's the coat of many colors, or our red shoe or red boots. Right, but that we want to celebrate what is individually unique about us. And despite the fact I love that story of leaving Cuba, despite the fact that we're leaving something, we are not losing our dignity, our value and our purpose. Can I get an amen?

Margarita Gurri: 45:31

Amen. I give you a Catholic and nondenominational. Amen. Amen. I think I think that's wonderful. What a what a lovely gift. Thank you so much. Well, I didn't know she had that red shoe.

Michael Alcee: 45:45

And if you look at her paintings, George Banano is a Columbia researcher on trauma. And he writes this beautiful story about her that you see in her work her incorporating her challenges into our work. She's this beautiful image of her with a column. And it's really the brace that holds her body together that she's made into part. So how we can take suffering and turn it into beauty. And art is also part of the way that we don't lose connection to the good stuff.

Margarita Gurri: 46:15

I think that's good advice for anyone and your sister has something to offer. She says true Dr. Red Shoe important to keep the momentum throughout the change from implementation through the measurement of the change. And you can't be afraid of failure. Because that is one of the juicy secrets for creativity is my father would say, Me he thought that was a spectacular failure. Congratulations. What can you do now? What did you learn? And we would often start by, you know, my father, being the Freud, an analyst was just also really funny, funny guy, he would say, who made a bigger mistake today, anyone makes do anything better? You know, like, the only me you know, it's the attitude that you take. So that was that was very brilliant. Thank you. Well, Rabbi, do you have a brilliant word of the day for us? Because I think we could talk forever and ever with this guy.

Yonason Goldson: 47:09

Well, I happen to pop the word of the day. This morning. I don't know whether I should be admit or not that I found it on tick tock.

Michael Alcee: 47:19

Knitting through it. Yeah.

Yonason Goldson: 47:22

You can find all sorts of things and all sorts of strange places. But the word that I never heard of which I actually had wondered about is the word is spaces, spaces. And that is when you insert a word into the middle of another word. Now, this is not so common in English, apparently, it was quite common in in Greek, in, in Latin, and it works well in the structure of Dutch and German. So for instance, the most common places here in English people will say, Well, that's a whole nother story, which always struck me it's sort of a distortion of language, but it's actually a linguistic device, you're splitting up the word another, and you're putting a hole in the middle. Sometimes you'll hear people do it with phrases like that's unbloody believable, even though they may use a different word for bloody and apparently not that I've never I've never seen an episode of The Simpsons, but apparently there's a character there named Ned Flanders who says it says things like, well diddly welcome. The idea is that when we interrupt the natural flow of our ideas, that brings extra attention to the content. And in our discussion about looking deeply looking inside the value, and the advantage of introverts is that introverts have a natural tendency to look and think deeper to notice subtlety and nuance. They have less fear of silence. And they're often more attuned to new ways of thinking, staying because they don't get caught up in the relentless rhythm of life, we we can easily become Lemmings, just following the crowd following the course we're on, because we're not to think about it so much. But to slow down, to read between the lines to look beneath the surface, to think more deeply to contemplate to reevaluate, you know, these are the behaviors that can really enrich our lives and can really deepen our connection with other people.

Margarita Gurri: 49:46

Wow, Rabbi, as usual, nailed it. Fired. Oh, go ahead.

Yonason Goldson: 49:54

Thank you. It's been a pleasure and you're the you're the wealth of your wisdom and and your insights has been truly inspiring to you. Do you have a final thought you'd like to leave us with?

Michael Alcee: 50:04

Well, I'm just delighted because now I know what happens when you bring a rabbit and shrink together. What it would be like and now I know. I think you know, the beautiful part is how we can court creativity and joy, the mystery. And as Rocha said, to embrace the questions, knowing that if we delve into them, we will find the answers and they will be arcs.

Yonason Goldson: 50:34

Beautiful. Thank you. Dr. Watts, what's the last word?

Margarita Gurri: 50:39

The last word is two things. First is choose the people you hang with wisely. And I think Rabbi we have done very well today. I think that one of the secrets of the universe is to love ourselves enough to have lovely human beings all around us. And if there's someone that's less than lovely, find a way to honor them from a distance or let others honor them. You can take a pass and not worry about saying bad things to people, I think because of the canceled culture, whatever the Robin and I were talking about in another episode. So one of the things I'm going to leave everyone with is ethics. They're all around you. The next time you stumble, or you see someone else stumble, when you get angry, or scared or whatever is the feeling. Have the faith that Dr. Michael, Elsie was talking about. Love yourself, know yourself. Ask yourself, why am I angry? What's going on? What's the right thing to do? And I think that love those stumbles, and you know, we're stumbling a lot these days, with all of the the changes in policy and in our lives because of COVID and the next variants going on and on. So get excited the next time you're annoyed, frustrated, scared or irritated? Because that is the secret source of maybe enough courage and curiosity to let yourself shine. Those are my thoughts. Well, thank you, gentlemen, for being here on the rabbi in the shrink for questions, send it to podcast at the rabbi in the shrink. And if you go to Michael al C's website.com. And he's all over the internet. We'll make sure to have all the links everywhere. We'll put links to his TED Talk. And you can I try to order his book. It's it's on pre order. You can order it on Amazon. Everyone take care. We'll see you on another episode of The rabbi and the stream be well