#56: Cordelia Gaffar - Experiment with Joy

Why do we choose not to be clear?

Are we flawed or are we human?

How does nurturing ourselves benefit our businesses?

These and other urgent questions are addressed when joyful living guru Cordelia Gaffar joins The Rabbi and the Shrink.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/cordelia-gaffar/

http://cordeliagaffar.com/

2:00  The value of joy-mongering and joy-bonding

Elevate our interactions rather than being transactional

Joy is a function of growth, progress, purpose and connection

Our vocabulary creates our world

How joy addresses the lack of trust in business

The corrosive effect of tracking software

9:00 How nurturing ourselves benefits our businesses

Different kinds of rest, diet, and exercise are essential to a joyful disposition

Emotions and thoughts influence and are influenced by our state of being

We have more control over thoughts than feelings and most control over our actions

14:00 Doubt, frustration, isolation, powerlessness depress our attitude and performance

The complexity of “safe spaces”

Culture flows top-down, modeling trusting behavior promotes a culture of trust

Experimentation is the human condition

19:00 Clear communication leads to productive cooperation and collaboration

Why do we choose not to be clear?

We have to know who we are and who others are

Are we flawed or are we human?

Vulnerability promotes trust

Ally-ship and followership

The value of silence

29:00 The word of the day: sesquipedalian 

polysyllabic; long.

• characterized by long words; long-winded.

We need to communicate in a way that strikes a balance between concise and thorough

Transcript

Margarita Gurri: 0:03

Welcome to the rabbi in the string. This is Dr. Margarita Guri. The shrink Dr. Red Shoe, and my very favorite Rabbi Yonason Goldson. The good Rabbi has introduced me once again to an amazing individual. Her name is Cordelia Gaffar, she we were nicknaming her joy. I know that name has begun to take off because she is joy personified. Welcome, Joy.

Cordelia Gaffar: 0:30

Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

Margarita Gurri: 0:34

And we're excited that today, the day that we're filming is the International Day of the woman. And I think that is no coincidence. And you are known to be a source of empowerment for women all around the globe. And any man who identifies as a human being. So that's pretty good. That's a big, big group you can cater to right?

Yonason Goldson: 0:54

Yeah, it is, also means that I'm allowed to stay on the show in spite of being International Women's Day.

Margarita Gurri: 1:00

Well, Rabbi men are people too. I'm just saying, and, and you're one of my favorite of those. So joy is an award winning individual. She was podcast hosts of 2019 in London for unlearning labels. She was a finalist for the top national influencer in order of the year, ambassador of peace that's impressive, global library of female authors, and a best selling author of a compilation book. Several people contributed America's leading lady she was one of them. And she was well chosen. She's written eight books, four of them by herself or with others. And one of them is about detached love. And another one is, I think your first was workout around my day, correct? Yes, correct. And then the two podcasts so your old podcast, I get the order mixed up. The new one is unlearning labels. Other award one was for the other one, right? Yes. For the free to be sorry, I got that wrong.

Cordelia Gaffar: 2:03

That's okay. I was gonna correct here.

Margarita Gurri: 2:05

Well, thank you very much. So please do tell us tell us about joy. And how did you get here?

Cordelia Gaffar: 2:12

You know, I love that question. Because for a couple of years, actually, when I met the rabbi, I'm gonna call you the rabbi that feels weird for me. But when I met the rabbi, I was known as the emotions opener. And so recently, I went on a deeper if you can believe it, transformative experience, and identify that emotion as joy. And, and so people started calling me joy, because they're like, You are a joy bubble, like being near you is like, feeling joy. And what's even better is like, I have a whole vocabulary surrounding all of it. Right? So now I'm the world's best joy. Mongar. Yeah, that's a word. And I create joy bonding. So

Margarita Gurri: 3:11

So tell us about joy mongers, someone who facilitate something brings it to and tell us about joy bonding. What is that?

Cordelia Gaffar: 3:19

Yeah, Joy. Bonding, actually, is a really serious thing, especially in the business world, you see, because most often people, they want to bond for a specific exchange. And I feel like when we come into conversations, it's about the elevation of what it is that we're bringing to the world. Right. So our mission, and if we, if we come into that conversation from how can I create more joy? How can I use this mission so that it elevates humanity? As opposed to let's see how much money I can make out of this, you'll be a lot more profitable.

Yonason Goldson: 4:06

If we've touched on some of my favorite topics all at once, or Delia, the connecting joy with mission in it's a topic that that I just love to go off on and won't go too long. But in Biblical Hebrew, there are eight words that translate as some form of joy or happiness. And, you know, in certainly in American culture, we are obsessed with happiness because all the way back to the Declaration of Independence and the unalienable right the pursuit of happiness. And I think the problem we make is we don't define what happiness is or where happiness comes from and what you've just encapsulated so simply, is that it comes from a sense of purpose, the 12 step programs of recovery, they start with recognizing something greater than yourself. Because if my life's all about me, then how much am I really able to be by my myself. But when I become part of something greater than myself, now I kept that sense of purpose. All those Hebrew words, if you look at their entomology, they all have some connection with progress or growth or purpose. And that that sense of purpose, that I'm fulfilling a mission that I'm contributing to a, something larger than myself, that's what fills us with this sense of joy that really makes life worth living. And that infused into a business context is going to drive success in the way that really nothing else will.

Cordelia Gaffar: 5:40

100% I mean, that that's the only way to go into business. And and I think what you what I love about what you said, is, it is our vocabulary that creates the world, right? And so, you know, just the fact that how many words was it? You said? 888 words? Right? That's like, a lot. And how many words do? Yeah, okay, I'm looking for that. And there's only like, one in English, you know, Joy. And so I've had to expound on that, obviously, by creating joy, bonding and joy mongering. And so, you know, another part of joy bonding is trust, right? We have to have trust in business. And I feel this is something that really rose to the surface in the past few years, is the the lack of trust that we had in our organizations. You know, we talked about it extensively last year on unlearning labels on that particular podcast, because there's like aI being used. What was the other one called? The software to watch? Employees? It's not coming to me right now. It's not called spyware. It has another name, but we talked about

Yonason Goldson: 7:03

it yourself. Maybe.

Cordelia Gaffar: 7:06

Yeah, it's, it's some, it will come to me as soon as we're done recording, of course. But it's there's a software that companies were using, you know, to see whether or not their employees were being productive. And, you know, sadly, a lot of women, you know, left the workforce, because it was just the accountability was too much. I mean, nevermind, all the things going on at home. And the funny thing about that is, we know that women tend to be a lot more productive, because they are in the habit of juggling a lot more responsibility. And, you know, but they also are conditioned to prove that they're more than their male counterparts. And so, you know, this is one of the places where, if they're, you know, just it sucks the life out of someone when they're not trusted. You know,

Margarita Gurri: 8:05

it's all that tracking software, that can erode a sense of trust and also erode creativity. If we're too worried about having to monitor every moment, whether it's automatic or not, we may not be free to be creative.

Cordelia Gaffar: 8:21

Exactly.

Yonason Goldson: 8:22

You know, they have a procedure for students to have the the online test taking. And, and it's actually it's, I mean, it sounds something like something out of dystopian novel, it attracts your eye movement. So if you look away from the screen for for more than a moment, then you're suspected of cheating. And just the knowledge that I'm being surveilled with such intensity is itself. So soul crushing,

Margarita Gurri: 8:53

it's joyless, it's joy.

Yonason Goldson: 8:56

But it all it also it becomes it depresses the performance on the test. In this bizarre irony of we want to make sure that people are actually being tested, or actually being honest. And so we are sort of influencing them with a sense of distrust, that that depresses their their performance. I mean, it's it's bizarre. And so what is

Margarita Gurri: 9:20

the secret to, to the joy bonding, and to helping custom, different corporations be stronger and better and with happier and more productive employees? What is your secret?

Cordelia Gaffar: 9:33

Yes, so it's at the individual level. So you use the phrase, they're free to be right. So my free to be show really gets into the joy and presence of a person. So one thing that we need to find is what helps you to nurture your joy by understanding nurturing yourself in the first place. So there are Five Tips for self nurturing, right? And it's really basic, you're going to think like, Wait, this is because you're a mom, right? So you have to sleep. That gives you joy. Well, and it also, right, it's the best way to detoxify your system, because it's the number one metabolism stabilizer. Right. So allowing your employees enough rest. And, you know, I mean, there's actual sleep, which is the physical rest, but then there's different forms of press, create creative rest, spiritual rest. And just having time to close your eyes, and center yourself, you know, there's grounding techniques, and different things like that. So when organizations offer spaces, they'll have like mindfulness rooms or mindfulness areas, to allow you to rest. Another thing. So here's where my nutrition background comes in. As you mentioned, my first book was workout around my day, making sure that you're eating high quality foods, because you really are what you eat, like, and your food is your medicine. So when you eat a certain quality of food, that will provide optimal mental function and emotional stability as well. Of course, you have to move right your body because we're actually meant to move, we're not supposed to be sitting still all day, which is kind of strange and odd, right? Because we do sit at computers most of the time. And fun fact, having a standing desk does not solve the problem. You actually have to go outside and sunshine and get some vitamin D. And it's it's good for your your bones. It's good for your mental function. So I like I said these sound like really super basic things. And very necessary things to have high quality employees. Yeah.

Margarita Gurri: 12:10

And what's four and five? We asleep nutrition movement. What are the other two? Just curious?

Cordelia Gaffar: 12:15

Oh, emotions and thoughts. Right? Which emotion which are connected? Because? Yeah. Is it chicken before the egg before the chicken? Right? So some people believe that it's the way you feel that controls your thoughts and other people feel that it's the way you think that controls the way you feel about whatever. Yeah, I go for both, you know why? Because really, what I've noticed is when I think something, it's almost like a magnet bringing it towards me. And then I can't help but to say that thing. So

Yonason Goldson: 12:52

we have much more control over our thoughts than we do over our feelings. And we have even more control over our actions. So yeah, the young person's complaint that if I don't feel like doing something that is somehow insincere or hypocritical, if I if I do that, whereas the way I look at it is is aspirational, I want to be the kind of person who acts in a in a refined way, in a thoughtful way, in a kind way, in a joyful way. And so I, I consciously act that way. And then my thoughts will start being more aligned with my actions, and my feelings will start to develop in a way that's consistent with those thoughts. So recognizing that we have control, and this, I think, is very much cordial, your your, your, your whole approach to recognize how much control we actually have over what we're feeling? By taking responsibility to to reframe and to make a conscious decision to be joyful.

Cordelia Gaffar: 14:01

Yeah, it's like starting with the question, Who do I have to be to? Right, who do I have to be for a certain outcome?

Margarita Gurri: 14:12

So what are the barriers? I'm a psychologist, and one of the things that we always look at is, how do I get in my own way? So what are the barriers that individuals and organizations have to joy?

Cordelia Gaffar: 14:23

Yeah, doubt, frustration, creating isolation. And I would, I would also say, making individuals feel helpless or hopeless, like they take the power away from them. And when you do that, it's just it just takes like 1% of any of those to to diminish the greater qualities of an individual. So I I think it goes back to the trust, you know, if there was if people felt that they were in a psychologically safe environment, and they could authentically show up to be themselves, they'd feel that they're trusted, respected. And whatever responsibility, their position entails, you know, they felt like they have the power to fully be that. I think that that would change a lot.

Margarita Gurri: 15:30

And what you said they felt like they have the power, but they also actually do have the power. Yes, some organizations make you feel like you do, but you don't. Right. And so I think it has to be you feel it, but it's also an accurate feeling that you really do.

Yonason Goldson: 15:45

And I'd actually like you to expand on that a little bit, this term of safe space has become commonly used. And I, I used it in an article recently, where I use it in the term in the sense that it's been used for referring to our college campuses, where I'm safe from anybody saying anything that could possibly be offensive or disturbing to me. And the woman who responded is from Europe, and she was understanding in the context of physical safety, and couldn't understand why I was having a problem with it. Right? goes back to what you said earlier about the vocabulary we use. But if we're if we don't want to create the sort of perpetual, perpetually terrified of making a misstep, attitude that can emerge from this, anything I say, could be misinterpreted or misunderstood, or misconstrued, and instead say, psychologically safe, in that I'm free to express ideas, I'm free to pursue thoughts that may not be fully developed, and for the freedom to ask your questions, because I want to learn more. And yet we all feel safe, because there's an element of trust. And i i Can I trust that my intentions are going to be recognized as good, and I feel safe, that I can express myself without being censured? Because someone misinterprets so what are the elements of creating that kind of psychological safety?

Cordelia Gaffar: 17:23

Well, see, I coached individuals who are our leaders, and I just, it's leaders are like role models, right? So if you're coming to work, and you're censoring yourself, then by your behavior by your actions, your team is going to do the same thing, right? So I just tell leaders just change your vocabulary surrounding it saying, Look, we're gonna experiment with this, and they get to see you experiment, and see you make a mistake, you know, and like, Be human. And then we can all be human together. You know, again, it's just the conditioning I feel in our society. And when I say our society, I mean, I work with people in three continents, and it's, it seems to be a global thing now. Where you can't be human, you have to be perfect. And that's, it doesn't even exist, like what is perfection. Experimenting is really what we're all doing. Anyway, just giving vocabulary to that and identifying and being accurate. Guess what? What you're doing. It's all an experiment. We don't know, until the end of the quarter, you know? So just, yeah, you know, and so, another thing I think about is when we talk about psychological, psychological safety, yes. You said the the European woman, she was thinking about physical safety. Well, here's the here's a fun fact. I did a talk about this in the AMPLIFi de ai Summit, where I was talking about black women in the workplace, right. And there is a physical and emotional lack of safety that they feel, you know, I, I've experienced it myself. Of course, I haven't worked in corporate America for 20 years.

Margarita Gurri: 19:32

Congratulations.

Cordelia Gaffar: 19:34

Thank you. Thank you, and, and how, you know, at the same time, I have clients that are currently in corporate America, and it hasn't changed and it's like, it's been like 20 years, you know, so I'm going into the workplace guard, it is a thing. And I told one woman who's a director, I said, experiment with, you know, just showing up and saying things that you see your male counterpart, say, and just be exactly who you are and feel how you feel in the moment. And she experimented with that. And guess what happened, where her staff wasn't compliant. And, you know, she felt like there was this passive aggressive thing, especially with some of her male employees. All of a sudden, it shifted, and the number one guy that was giving her the most hard time on her team, he, he like, did a 180. And he became, you know, like a constituent for her, you know,

Yonason Goldson: 20:35

you give a couple of specific examples. In a case like that.

Cordelia Gaffar: 20:39

Well, it was her vocabulary, because she was always coming in work, guarded, and not giving clear or, you know, instructions, she would just say, you know, did you do that? You know, and sometimes he would be like, you know, I just didn't get to it. Right. So you can hear already, there's conversation not happening, right? It's like, this needs to be done by this specific deadline, right? That part, she didn't give them that information. I didn't get to it. There are some, there are some other things that are priorities, and I need help with that. So in the end, what he started to tell her the things that he needed help with, you know, I don't have enough assistance with, you know, certain projects. And and so when she found that out, she says, Oh, okay, well, let's go over these things. Let me see if I can get some help from other teams. And it just was a lack of communication, a lack of understanding, lack of compassion. And everyone's, you know, pretending. Something that they don't need to they just need to talk. Does that make sense?

Yonason Goldson: 21:57

Yeah, I think it's, it's worth thinking about why what is it that causes us not to be clear.

Margarita Gurri: 22:09

Some of those seven natural gifts, Rabbi

Yonason Goldson: 22:12

Mobius, and most of them are in office, but

Margarita Gurri: 22:16

or in my chair at home, I don't know why she does. Clarity is hard to come by. And if you looking at diversity, the language we use that works with one group might not work with another. So we have to understand who we are, and who the various people with whom we're communicating, so that we know what might resonate or what might scare them, or belittle them or invite them and excite them is not so easy to be clear. As you can tell by what I just said, Yes.

Cordelia Gaffar: 22:53

And a choice to be clear to you No, because, I mean, I know like the inner workings of her mind, she was telling me things like, well, if I tell them, I don't know how to do something, or if I tell them that I don't know what they're supposed to do. You know, it's easier for me to just say do that, rather than to take the time to let them see where I'm flawed? And I'm like, but are you flawed? Are you just human? You know? Well, you

Margarita Gurri: 23:24

talk about ally ship quite a bit. And that goes along with the idea of followership that the rabbi and I talk about from time to time, that there's leaders, most leaders aren't taught how to lead or taught how to communicate as leaders, no less for the diverse group. And so on top of with Ally ship, we have to have the idea that we're all helping the leader lead, and the leader is helping all of the followers be leaders, right. And allies. Getting that culture down is not so easy, but it is certainly doable. Clarity is a risk, as my father used to say, risk greatness.

Cordelia Gaffar: 24:04

Yeah, it really, it really matters. I mean, I like the way you're bringing in ally ship and aligning it with followership. That's yeah, that's, that's very accurate. Because you really want to empower each person to be their own leader. You know, that self leadership was super important for cohesiveness. And then everyone can be a reflection of each other.

Margarita Gurri: 24:34

And it's not about being competitive, or adversarial. It's about getting the job done. And to have loving civil discussions about where we disagree the rabbi and I love that. We live when groups learn to listen, really listen to each other, and learn.

Yonason Goldson: 24:55

It's also not about position or authority if I if I'm the official leader, and an underling comes up with a really good idea or suggestion, then I become a follower in the sense that I am now supporting the implementation of the person who took the initiative, the person who came up with the, with the idea that we're all members of a team that the roles can be fluid to some degree in practice, even if they are fixed in, in the in the in the structure of the organization, and the willingness to shift and adapt and allow people who take on different roles can really create a vibrant culture that can accomplish extraordinary things.

Cordelia Gaffar: 25:45

Yeah, I agree. You know, I don't have anything clever to say after that. I just agree.

Margarita Gurri: 25:54

He Is he is he often gets me to think into silence. I know that's a conflict.

Yonason Goldson: 26:00

That doesn't work on podcasts so well, but

Margarita Gurri: 26:04

that was a good silence you just had congratulations.

Yonason Goldson: 26:09

Our listenership just went up.

Margarita Gurri: 26:13

Thank you. We like that. It was good for me.

Yonason Goldson: 26:15

Actually, there was a quick story. A student came into a Rabbi's lecture. And, and he had a new tape recorder. Anybody remember tape recorders? You know, sell cell phones that recorded before they had cell phones. And this one was voice activated, which was a new thing at the time. And the rabbi who was not particularly tech savvy. He noticed something different about it. He said, what's what's with this tape recorder was a different. And the students said, well, it, it responds to your voice. And it cuts out the gaps. And the rabbi's shook his head and smiled. He said the gaps are the absolutely most essential part of the lecture. And, you know, that's something that we have lost. You know, we are, first of all, we're uncomfortable with silence Just when we're sitting with people. But in this medium, dead air is considered the kiss of death. As soon as soon as three seconds go by people start tapping their their devices trying to see if something's gone wrong. And we don't allow one another time to actually think about what we're saying. So maybe we could introduce a new format of of podcast. We we do. Cast I'm to think but there is the pause button. So I guess that works.

Cordelia Gaffar: 27:50

That's so funny. And that's true. Like in speaking right on stage. The pause is like everything, like on a podcast. It's just like, Wait, is there something wrong with the connection? You know, even my kids, like, I record my own commercial breaks on my podcast. And they're like, Mom, why so long of a pause? And I was like, was it like, even 10 seconds, you know? And they were like cats forever? I was like, seconds. Wow. So

Margarita Gurri: 28:20

that's nice that they pointed out? It's they're not critical. They want to hear more for you. That's the good part of that.

Cordelia Gaffar: 28:26

Oh, yeah, they're my marketing team. I'm like, this okay to post is good. I use this.

Margarita Gurri: 28:33

Well, we know that there's a good podcast when people do hit the pause, either to write notes or to think I think that's wonderful. So we're gonna start a new movement, pause for peace. And have everyone get excited about it? Well, I think we're getting to the point where it's time for the word of the day. Good rabbi. And when we come back, we'll have some more thoughts from our speaker.

Yonason Goldson: 29:01

I'd like to introduce the word of the day with one of my favorite quotes that just came to me during this discussion. It's by Robert McCloskey. He said, I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

Margarita Gurri: 29:21

Okay, I love that.

Yonason Goldson: 29:24

You can pause to reflect on that. We've been talking about vocabulary and communication and trust and and preconceptions and such and these are all contributors to miscommunication. And on the one hand, we want to be very concise, with our words very accurate, very to the point the other day when we don't want to leave things unsaid, that need to be said. And striking that balance can be bit of a challenge. And so this week's Word of the Day comes to us from our friend, Susan Brooks, the grammar goddess, former guest on our show, and the word if I could pronounce it is sesquipedalian.

Margarita Gurri: 30:12

Well, that's easy for you to say it's not

Yonason Goldson: 30:17

sesquipedalian, which means characterized by long words in a way that is often long winded. It's, it's, it's the reason why everybody should read at least a little bit of Hemingway. Because I think he does more with one and two syllable words than almost any author in history. And so as we think we have to use these long fancy words to sound erudite, to to impress people to sound sophisticated, and we end up muddling the message. So that whatever we thought we were communicating, gets completely lost or even worse, misunderstood. So rather than being Hang on a second, sesquipedalian overly long winded let's, let's try that balancing point where we can speak concisely, clearly, but not leave important information unsaid. Like your example of the of the workplace, Cordelia, where, for whatever reason, we think we think that people will understand what we mean, it's our job to get the message across. And it's both our jobs to make sure that the message has been accurately received.

Cordelia Gaffar: 31:48

Yeah, and in this case, it doesn't matter how it lands, you know? As opposed to a lot of times, we're just like, Oh, it doesn't matter how it lands, it matters how it lands, because that's the team building piece. Communication, so very key.

Yonason Goldson: 32:04

Yeah, people say, you know, clear communication. Well, if it's not clear, it's not communications.

Cordelia Gaffar: 32:13

Yeah. 100%. So, this is where I get to say,

Margarita Gurri: 32:22

you have a final word of wisdom or a call to action done better than,

Cordelia Gaffar: 32:27

which is experiment with bonding from a place of joy, instead of a place of trauma. We experience life for the elevation of our souls. So allow your experiences to elevate your soul to joy.

Yonason Goldson: 32:50

In terms of feeling joy, we talked about having a sense of purpose. But there's also an element of having a kind of spontaneity and sort of step back. So So when when you want to, when you want to have fun, is there something that you turn to that complements the joy of purpose and work?

Cordelia Gaffar: 33:13

I think you know what it is because you use the word Turn to I do cartwheels.

Margarita Gurri: 33:20

Okay, now, I want a video of

Cordelia Gaffar: 33:22

this. There is one on my Instagram,

Margarita Gurri: 33:25

I am going to have missed. I can't believe I missed such a juicy morsel. That's why I think that's wonderful. I also think you communicate your sense of joy, with the movement of the colors behind you in what you're wearing. I was telling the rabbi we need to get him a Keepa that has colors. But he grapples with a gray, so maybe we should get him something wild and crazy. That's great, you know? Yeah, great.

Cordelia Gaffar: 33:53

Maybe it will be like iridescent Gray, you know, like, bordering on

Margarita Gurri: 33:57

glitter. A scandal

Yonason Goldson: 34:03

some of my beard and

Margarita Gurri: 34:05

distinguished beard. Hopefully someday it'll be all white. That'll be fun. Yeah, that was gonna be all white. Gotta love an all white beard. I I think it says really good things about someone. Maybe it shouldn't. But to me it speaks to some sort of wisdom and patience.

Yonason Goldson: 34:22

It's certainly Oh, so what is the last word of wisdom?

Margarita Gurri: 34:28

The last word of course is joy. We have our newly nicknamed Cordelia ghafar Who is joy personified. And I think that her message is something we can all consider. Are you ready to allow yourself to give and receive joy? How are you going to create it? And how are you going to receive it? And some of us are good at creating it. Some of us are good at receiving it. The challenges let's do both. And I think If we learn how to think about ourselves as instruments for the greater good, which I believe we are, with a sense of meaning, how can we miss creating and receiving joy? That's all I have to say about that. Rabbi, enjoy my thought thank you for joining us. It's been a pleasure. Thank you for joining us. You've been awesome and a lot of fun as well. Well, and thank you good rabbi. We're gonna when this airs, it will no longer be International Day of the woman. But every day is certainly international day of joy. And let's make that happen. This is the rabbi in the shrink. Finishing up a very fun podcast. We'll see you next that and if you have questions podcast at the rabbi in the shrink, and for Cordelia, who is not yet How's joy in it, Cordelia ghafar J FF ar.com me? Oh, yeah. What did I say J I'm in G, I'm sorry. What's the FFA on that COMM And you can get more information about her. And we'll have links in our notes so that you can find her, her YouTube and her LinkedIn. Everyone have a joyful day.

Unknown: 36:17

Thank you for listening to the rabbi and the shrink everyday ethics unscripted to book Dr. Red Shoe Dr. Margarita gooery or Rabbi Unison Goldson as speakers or advisors for your organization. Contact them at the rabbi and the shrink.com. This has been a doctor Red Shoe production