#60: Ron Carucci - Lead with Power and Purpose

What are the triggers, patterns, and conditions that set us up for failure?

Why are we voyeurs of depravity rather than students of dignity?

Why are good-hearted leaders not more successful?

These and other critical questions are addressed when transformation guru Ron Carucci joins The Rabbi and the Shrink.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/roncarucci/

https://www.navalent.com/

1:45 The origins of truth, justice, and purpose

Why are good-hearted leaders not more successful?

Truth-telling makes all the difference

Tell the hero stories

Where does knowledge take us?  That is the road to wisdom

8:30 Why are we voyeurs of depravity rather than students of dignity?

Stories of heroes inspire heroism in us

11:00 Four preconditions for success

1. Be true to who you are -- unfulfilled values are destructive
2. Justice and accountability -- measuring intangible contributions with integrity
3. Governance -- make decisions honestly and transparently
4. Cross-functional relationships -- seamless cohesion and conflict resolution

If you’re good at all four, you’re 16 more likely to have a healthy and vibrant work culture

Honesty is not a trait, it’s a muscle

20:00 It’s so obvious, why don’t people get it?

Leaders believe these things will take care of themselves; THEY WON’T!

Good intentions are a good start, but design is what makes them happen

The Jewish triad of truth, justice, and kindness

Our brains are hardwired for these values, if we don’t short-circuit them

28:30 What’s one big first step?

Start with you: be honest about your dishonesty

Keep a journal of where your behavior needs improvement

What are the triggers, patterns, and conditions that set me up for failure?

32:00 The word of the day:  Casuistry (/ˈkæzjuɪstri/ KAZ-ew-iss-tree) 

a process of reasoning that seeks to resolve moral problems by extracting or extending theoretical rules from a particular case, and reapplying those rules to new instances. This method occurs in applied ethics and jurisprudence. 

Commonly used as a pejorative to criticize the use of clever but unsound reasoning, especially in relation to moral questions (as in sophistry)

Fact-driven decisions, not decision-driven facts

Transcript

Margarita Gurri: 0:03

Welcome to The Rabbi and the Shrink. This is Dr. Margarita Gurri, the shrink. And here's everyone's favorite Rabbi

Yonason Goldson: 0:11

Yonason Goldson.

Margarita Gurri: 0:13

And the good rabbi and I are delighted to introduce you today, Ron Carlucci. Hi, Ron.

Ron Carlucci: 0:20

Dr. Hi, Mr. Nice to be with you.

Margarita Gurri: 0:23

We are absolutely thrilled. And everyone who's listening, get ready, hold on to your seat. If you want to learn how to be honest and lead with power, of truth, justice, and purpose, you have tuned into the right episode. One of the things that I love about Ron Krushi says watching his TED talks, and we'll make sure we have links of those. He's one of the most impassioned speakers who's connecting with feeling in an authentic way to help invite everyone to not only be your best sales for themselves, but for the world. I just love how you did that. Thanks for doing that, Ron. That's way. Cool. Thanks, Doctor. All right. So he's a best selling author of nine books, as clearly as not been a slouch. He has an Amazon bestseller number one, rising to power, which is a good name for that. He's a regular contributor to the how the Harvard Business Review, Forbes, Fortune CEO, magazine, business leader, MSNBC, BusinessWeek, smart business, blah, blah, blah, and now to the rabbi in the string. So we're just very honored to have him here. So how did you get started with doing all of this, you know, the whole idea of the power of truth, justice and purpose started for you?

Ron Carlucci: 1:50

Well, we, we began the research probably nine years ago, with a 10 year study, we did for the book rising to power we had, we had 2700 interviews, at that point over 10 years collected. And we use some really cool artificial intelligence, IBM Watson software, they sort of analyzed data to see what it could tell us about why was it that so many leaders rising up in organizations were failing? Why is it that we've been okay, with half of them flaming out within 18 months, and we wanted to know more about why that was. Because we felt like many goodhearted leaders weren't getting the chance to be successful, the way they should have been. And so we spent years studying that and writing the book, and what we really believe was solving the problem, making sure that no leader ever had to elevate their route to broader levels of responsibility and not be successful. Fast forward five years, and now we had 15 years of data with 3200 leaders in our database that we had interviewed. And we thought, I wonder what's in that basket? Now, you know, we had isolated the data for individual behavior for the first project. We thought, what what can you tell us about communities and systems and groups of people, when you put four walls up and put a roof on it and fill it up with people? Something about to happen? Could could could this data tell us something about how to make that experience better? But this time, rather than giving it a hypothesis and saying we're looking for information or correlations and this, we said, what should we be asking you? What places in this data? Are there interesting connections that we should be wondering about? To see just how intelligent the data was? Or the technology was? Well, it turns out, they, they, the software came back with very interesting drill sites of go look here, because there's something really fascinating about the way this data is loading on each other. And one of those places was about truth telling, and honesty, and the places in communities that people that it happens in the places that it doesn't. So we went and, you know, I thought that would be compelling. If if there were a way to predict the conditions under which people would tell the truth and behave fairly in the conditions in which they wouldn't. That would be a compelling thing to learn. At this point, there was no vision for a book on on the horizon, but I just thought, what can we learn? So turns out, it came back to us with four multiplicatively predictive conditions, that can tell us the kinds of places in which people will tell the truth and behave fairly and serve a greater good, and the kinds of conditions under which people will lie, cheat and serve their own interests first. And it was compelling. And of course, the some of the conditions we found were all things that are hiding in plain sight. In organizations that we we just assume are nuisances or, you know, part and parcel of having to work in a big company or a community of people, and that we've written off as annoyances, but turns out they actually are creating great risk. So it was it was compelling enough. I wanted to tell the stories that people who lived the good part of the story When I was a little tired of hearing the villain stories, we heard about the rhinos, to death, we've watched documentaries, we've heard about Wells Fargo toward blue in the face. Volkswagen, I mean, it's only I don't need to tell those stories anymore, and I don't want to dignify them. I had to believe that there were heroes stories that people, leaders and organizations living out lives of great purpose, and living out lives of great integrity, and justice, and impacting the world for greater good. And I wanted to tell those stories. And so I went and found a enormous collection of them, to my great surprise. And it was an incredible privilege to curate their stories and to help them up as exemplars of what we found in research.

Margarita Gurri: 5:41

Amazing somebody conditions Oh, sorry, well, by

Yonason Goldson: 5:44

just there's so much there to unpack when we could go on for hours just cutting off from that. But, you know, there's a story, there's a meta story here is if I, if I understood you correctly, you put the data in to see where the data would lead. And I don't remember who said this, but I think it's brilliant that we're living in an age of decision, guided facts, as opposed to fact guided decisions. And, you know, it was just so refreshing about your story is that you tried to go in without preconceptions. Where does the data take us? Where does the knowledge take us? Because that is the road to wisdom, the moment we decide where we want to go, we're in danger of ending up there, whether we actually belong there or not?

Ron Carlucci: 6:41

Well, I how many? How many, I mean, God bless the academic community, but they go, they have an excellent y hypothesis that they have to prove, and it should come as no surprise in a publisher perish world, that they often prove the hypothesis. And it doesn't mean that it's falsely correlated set of what of data that they learn. But it always makes me wonder, what did they learn what was left on the cutting room floor that might have been worthy of exploration, maybe not worthy of publishing, but worthy of learning?

Margarita Gurri: 7:11

First, and really good researchers would make a whole lot of sense out of something that didn't work out the way they wanted. But you have to have a lot of courage and character to publish that.

Ron Carlucci: 7:23

Well, and we had no skin in the game. Right? We have. I mean, we I was curious, I don't know that I thought much about what was going to come back. And then I wanted to know, I mean, we, you know, I, I've always been fascinated by human endeavor at scale. And what it is groups of humans can do, that individuals can't. And that's my fascination. And so we had already learned what we wanted to learn about individual humans, leaders, and what what makes them optimal in their influence. I wanted to know what makes bigger groups of people more optimal when they come together, because we listen, there's no shortage of stories of dysfunction, and political, you know, toxicity and all the things that can go wrong in your organization when you take four walls and fill it up with people. But what if that didn't have to be the way it was? What if there were other ways to bring together lots of humans together in shared endeavor, and watch their glory thrive? There's nothing more offensive to me than wasted human glory.

Margarita Gurri: 8:28

I love about that.

Yonason Goldson: 8:30

Yeah. And then the The other aspect is that when we hear those stories, we are so inspired by them. And we feel better about ourselves and we feel better about society and we feel optimistic and motivated and hopeful and yet there seems to be this dark side that we are drawn to the media thrives on this by selling it this and we indulge them

Ron Carlucci: 8:56

we do we feel a doctor

Yonason Goldson: 8:58

you can speak to this to your your your your vision, Ron here of trying to help us break that predisposition to voyeurism of the bad by focusing on the good. It's really in our own best interest. We just have to convince ourselves of that, don't we?

Ron Carlucci: 9:16

Yeah. Well, I It's so true. I mean, you probably doctor know more about why why human brains are far more titillated by depravity than by dignity. But I think the media would have us believe because of the headlines that get the most clickbait that organizations are full of nothing but charlatans and crooks and leches and power hungry, you know, narcissists, we have our fair share of those. I don't think that's the norm. I think allowed they're allowed exception, but I think the the quiet majority are the good hearted leaders wanting to do greater good and who care and who are living lives of truth and justice and purpose. Why we don't find their stories every bit as it's I don't know, it's bizarre to me. But I tell you, you, you cannot come away from this book unchanged. Unless you're in a coma. If you read this, it's not because I wrote it, it's because of the stories of men and women who are doing extraordinary things in the world, living out, you know, lives of truth and justice and purpose in ways we could emulate, we'd be proud to call them our boss, we would be provoked to want to say, I want to try that. I want to be known to be that way, I want others to think of me that way. And when you get to the end of the book, I hope people want to run into the, into their offices the next day, and shout as loud as they can, we're going to do it differently.

Margarita Gurri: 10:46

And if they're reading your books, and learning from your stuff, you're gonna give them the mindsets and skills and habits needed to do that. For me, I already think of you that way. And I was teasing you earlier, when we were chit chatting that I think of you as the the Mr. Fred Rogers, for business leaders. And it is, there's something just so decent and kind and calm and reassuring about you. And yet you've got this powerful message based on facts and research and passion. So it's wonderful. So when I started question, so what are those four predictive conditions I've gotten?

Ron Carlucci: 11:25

The first is being true to your identity, be who you say you are. So all of our organizations make promises about their identities, they express those in the form of missions and purpose statements and values. They publish them on walls and coffee mugs and screensavers and shareholder reports. Well, it turns out, those promises have to be kept. When your actions and words align. When there is consistency between who you say you are and what people experience you to be. Turns out, you're three times more likely to have people be honest and tell the truth and behave thoroughly. And by the way, honesty as defined as truth, justice and purpose. What we learned in the neuroscience of our research was that it's no longer enough not to lie, to be labeled honest, you have to say the right thing, do the right thing and say and do the right thing for the right reason, truth, justice and purpose. So when there's a say do gap, in other words, when the words on those walls are for cosmetic purposes only, but what you raise the topic of your values, or your mission statement or your purpose statement, and employees roll their eyes. Now, you've institutionalized duplicity, you've said to people, hey, you know what, around here, it's okay to say one thing and do another. And you've now given people permission to do that anywhere, because that's what you've modeled. Now, you're three times more likely to have people serve their own interests first, because you've told them they can. Second condition is justice and accountability. How my contribution is talked about, so you never hear anybody walk into an office and say, I'm so excited. Today's my performance with you. Nope. In a world of yesteryear, where are our accountability systems were created to to be accounting systems have repetitive work, how many cases did you close? How many files Did you review? How many T shirts Did you print? It was fine to keep score that way and tell people here's what you did, and here's your money for it. But we've long left that world behind, we just haven't left the systems behind to go with it. So today, the world of work is the work of the content contributor and their contribution are much more fused than ever. Today. My remit isn't how many files I close today, my remit is my analysis, my creativity, my ideas, my perspective, my breakthrough thinking, when you talk about my contribution, you are talking about the contributor, you cannot separate those. And if you talk about them without dignity, meaning honoring what I gave, and even honoring where I fell short. And with fairness or justice, meaning I have as much of a chance to be successful as anybody else. When you do that, you are four times more likely that will be honest. But if I think the system is rigged, if I show up looking a certain way with a certain identity or not in a privileged role, and others can be more successful, or if I feel demeaned, or demoralized, as a cog in your wheel. When you talk about my work now you're four times more likely to have me be honest, because when I feel wronged, I feel entitled to take

Yonason Goldson: 14:40

and that's an important point. Just stop and focus on that for a moment that we we want to be around people we trust. We want to be in a culture an environment where we feel people have our backs that people can rely on and if we aren't contributing to a healthy culture, to a culture where there's a sense of fairness, then we're actually creating a more toxic culture that we have to live in. And we are going to suffer from the lack of ethics around us. And we're responsible for that. Because we created the swamp,

Ron Carlucci: 15:19

and the, you know, the painful irony haunts you. And I says, When I feel disempowered, when I feel like I don't have the chance, I sort of succumb to it and become a victim. But I don't see myself as having the agency to change it, which is unfortunate. When I feel demeaned, and demoralized and undignified I, I show up less of a human. And in those environments, your best talent quits, it leaves, but your mediocre talent quits in the States. And, and that's the person who becomes a victim, as you describe I, I become part of the toxicity and think that's what I deserve. And think that's what that's how it's gonna be here. That's what can I do. And it's unfortunate, because the systems that should be the most honoring the most energizing, people should be excited to to sit down and talk about their contributions, and to talk about the ways they can improve. Not just celebrating good stuff, but saying, Hey, this is what you committed to, then you got us this far, but you fell short, let's talk about what we can learn. That's today, sadly, not how most of our people expect people experience those accountability systems. The third was governance and how we make decisions. So I walk into a room in an organization with a bunch of people sitting around a table, often referred to as a meeting. And if I sit down at that table, and I believe that the person in the front of the room who's sitting in front of a bunch of flip charts, or a bunch of PowerPoint slides or a bunch of data, I concluded that the way they're the way they're presenting that information is fair. It's balanced, its objective. And there's two well thought out sides to that story, that there's an even conversation in the room and a decision that has not yet been made or a problem that has not yet been solved. And I'm confident that if I would offer a dissenting view, or a view that contradicts the prevailing view in the room, I'd be welcome to do that. That's transparency. Now, I'm three, three and a half times more likely to have people be honest and tell the truth. But if I walked into that room, and I think it's nothing but orchestrated Theater, where the data being presented has an agenda, it's being spun in a way to get you to conclude a certain thing, the decision that you're wanting me to help make you made yesterday. And now this is the retroactive version of getting me to feel included. And the last thing I think you want to hear is a point of view that contradicts anything else that's being said in the room. That's not now that's a lack of safety. And so the only way for me to get the truth is to go underground. So now you're three and a half times more likely to have me be dishonest. And the last one was cross functional relationships, sort of unity at your organizational seems. We've all seen the classic silo, border wars, sales and marketing, supply chain operations, HR and everybody. And we accept those as simply mere part and parcel of what it means to work in an organization. But it turns out those conflicts have real cost. Because it's the scenes of your organizations that were real value gets created. Nothing that you do competitively that sets you apart is made by any one function. It's it's at the intersection of many functions, where that that breadth comes together. And your ability to to resolve conflicts resolve tensions create value happens. This is one of the surprising things to us and data. When those seams are stitched well, when there's cohesion when there are broader people, communities, that people coming together across boundaries seamlessly, you are six times more likely to have people be honest, wow. Now I feel part of a bigger story. But when those silos prevail, when you fragment the organization, you now fragment the truth. Now, I had nothing but dueling truths. My goal was no longer a single source of truth. My goal was simply very, very directly to make sure you understand that you're wrong, and I'm right. When that happens, now you're six times more likely to have people be dishonest. Because you've torn the fabric of utilization apart. There's there's no longer one story, there are multiple competing stories. The other staggering but sobering aspect of research shows that those, those the the Cisco models are cumulative. So if you're really really good at all four of those things, you are 16 times more likely to have people in your organization, tell you the truth, behave fairly and serve a greater good, but if you suck at all four of those things. Now you're 16 times relative to have to have your organization end up in a headline you never wanted to be in and there are all factors well within our control. But what we learned in the research is that honesty is not a character trait. It's not some mysterious force we sprinkle of ourselves, it's actually a muscle. It's something you actually have to work out to get good at. It always says, and you have to work at it every day. You have to earn it every day. What it takes to earn the reputation of being trustworthy today is truth, justice and purpose brought home every day. And the good news is we can learn all of our models showed us that it's not an all or nothing proposition. If you improve coherence in your identity, you know, reducing your say do gap by even 30%. You got a 12%, hit and honesty. So we can we can move the needle on all four of these things incrementally, we don't have to sort of leap as if it were possible.

Yonason Goldson: 20:53

Let me ask you the question that I get asked from time to time, what you're saying is so obvious. Why don't people get it? Is it just that we think we can take shortcuts and get there faster?

Ron Carlucci: 21:07

And if we can answer that we can actually be very wealthy. I have a theory, I have a theory. And it's this, I think it's so obvious that people presume it to just be so I think leaders are wildly naive. And that is often a presumption as a result of arrogance, that deep narcissistic, but people arrive at certain levels of an organization and presume if I think it will be, I think they intend for their values to be true. I think they intend for people to have great experiences with their managers talking about their contribution, I think they intend for people to walk into meetings and speaker. And I think they intend for that to be healthy collaboration and partnership across the organization. And I think that they think because they intended, it's happening, rather than realizing that your intentions are fairly meaningless at that level of organization, and if unless you design your organization to have those outcomes, you're not gonna get it, I tell my my executive clients all the time, your organization is perfectly designed to get the results you're getting. That is true. So if you're getting, you know, hypocrisy, demeaning accountability systems, lack of transparent governance meetings, and people sort of cutting deals on the table, and border wars. That means that's what you're built for. If you if you don't want those outcomes, declared, you don't want those outcomes as interesting to the last five minutes. Designing the organization to produce different outcomes, which is a deeply transformative body of work, is what you actually have to do to have your attentions become real. And I think that's an I think, mostly just just don't want to do all that work.

Margarita Gurri: 22:53

Well, the rabbi and I have done, you know, keynotes and consultations, advising whatever. And one of the things he and I keep talking about, is that why is it people don't get it. And I think that your book talks to that issues, because they don't have the vision of what it looks like. So I think that many of them have never seen it in action. They've never experienced it themselves. They have good intentions, but they don't know how to roll it out with the day to day. And I think it's wonderful that you're showing people and inspiring people with the stories was one of the things that Rabbi has been working on with his stories as well. How do you get people to see what they're actually doing? And what instead could be? So I know that Rabbi, You have a story for us on this?

Yonason Goldson: 23:39

Well, before the story, what really resonates with me about this triad that you you keep coming back to Ron, the, the truth, justice, and purpose is that in in Judaism, we have a fundamental triad of truth, justice and kindness, although it's in the other direction. But as I thought about it, I think kindness and purpose are very closely aligned. Because kindness is acting in an outward way to benefit others. And I think ultimately, that's, that's what purpose really is. So on the one hand, you have this outward desire to do for others, it's balanced against this sort of internal sense of what's right and what's just so for instance, charity on the one hand, and work ethic on the other personal responsibility other and when you find a way of synthesizing or balancing those two, then you get to truth. And, and it's a very powerful model and then the, the image of three is so fundamental. We know that the three is represents Foundation, in architecture, and engineering, and in philosophy and speaking we always talk about the power of three, there's something in the natural A world that three is really the foundational building block or structure that supports everything else. So I just found find your model extremely compelling,

Ron Carlucci: 25:13

brilliant exegesis. I just love that I bet recording it. It's and I think the one of the great things we found in the neuroscience is that our brains come hardwired for just what you describe, right? It's what we're naturally created to want it to be. The unfortunate thing is that our brains are on like, our cell phones don't come with restore factory settings, buttons. So when we are indulged in environments that don't optimize kindness and care, and truthfulness, we succumb over time, or we have to leave because we just the dissonance becomes too great. And it's unfortunate, because like I said, You're and we just watched, you know, 25 million people quit the sickness 69 People quit million people quit their jobs last year. If you're not getting the message, that people are far less tolerant of environments that are toxic, that are uncaring, that are unimpacted you're really going to be in trouble. And so for me, and I, you know, to your point, Doctor, I left no stone unturned. I didn't want anybody to leave any one of these chapters, thinking, What do I do now. So every chapter ends with a very clear set of here's 10 things you can do right now.

Margarita Gurri: 26:42

You speak that way to you define a problem, you talk about it, the this part of it, that part of it, and you'll always have a solution. I think that clarity helps people feel like they can make it happen.

Ron Carlucci: 26:55

Well, I My goal is to empower the agency people to say we can all do better, and we should all want to do better. But I want to believe no excuses for Gee, I'm not sure what to do. Now, every every section of the book, for every one of the findings is broken into here's what the system of the organization can do. Here's what you as an individual can do. So even if you feel like well, I don't control the culture, or I can't control all performance management. Here's the thing you personally can do to enact this in the environment that you're in right now. So nobody has to walk away thinking, I wish I could change this.

Yonason Goldson: 27:28

But it's so critical. There's this phrase that we hear in the speaking world, to my opinion, way too often. And I won't, I won't name the author, although a person is very well known, much more famous, and I probably ever will be. People will remember what you say. But they'll remember how you made them feel. And that's nice. But then 10 minutes after they walk out what are they left with? A nice feeling when you when you are, what you are offering is here is something that's practical, that I can take a next step that I can implement, that can affect real change. And I can feel good about that too. But that feeling is going to last and go on and on and on and perpetuate and spread in a way that this momentary feeling of inspiration is very unlikely to

Margarita Gurri: 28:21

Fred Rogers, very well done, but we could talk to you forever. I before we go to the word of the day, I was thinking about what is it that if somebody's listening, and they know they're not on the right track, or they know their organization's under the right track? What is one thing that they can do other than read your book was one thing they can do today that might make a big impact?

Ron Carlucci: 28:48

Well, I listen, we often I think as a psychiatrist, you would say always start with you. And the one thing I invite readers to do in the book, and I would invite your listeners to do is, is to be honest, but we first have to be honest about our dishonesty. University, Massachusetts says we all lie on average twice a day. At a minimum, I will ask you in a quiet moment of your life, use a journal when so look back over the last eight or 10 days of your life. And no one ever asked to see this. And think about the moments where you are not true to yourself the moments where you embellished data to your boss, the moments where you were Curt to your spouse, the moment where you treated somebody disrespectfully, the moment where you hid information from a direct report to avoid hurting their feelings. Pick the moments you know what they are? Yeah, where you were, what that brought you to your dishonesty. And what I can guarantee you doctor you can back this up is that they're not random. No, those moments you will see a pattern and you will see a set of choices where you told yourself this is the behavior I'm gonna choose because it makes me feel safer. It makes me feel a certain way. I believe I'm appearing a certain way I'm engineering a certain response from others. And if you want to live a more honest life, you have to rescript the narratives that bring you to your dishonesty, you're making choices, even with good intentions that are less than who you are, that are less than your best self. And the lie you tell yourself that this is okay or that I feel safer, or that I feel XYZ or I think they now think this about me, they're not true. People see right through that stuff eventually. And all you're doing is causing yourself needless suffering. So I would ask you to spend time thinking about what are the patterns or the experiences of the people with the triggers? Or the environments that bring you to your dishonest self? And ask yourself, if that meant, if that narrative were to say something else, would I choose a different behavior. That's where honesty begins. And the minute you can make mean to make different choices in those moments, you'll be able to much more graciously invite others to do the same.

Margarita Gurri: 30:57

I love that. So of course, it starts with me and you a new every every person as that. And that's why it's so scary. That's why people need courage. And that's why they need it. We need each other. We really do we

Ron Carlucci: 31:11

can you know, those those moments of discovery, even if you keep them hidden from other people their best. They're your best transformations in the in the hands of somebody who cares about you, loves you and knows you anyway,

Yonason Goldson: 31:23

to surround ourselves with quality people.

Ron Carlucci: 31:25

Absolutely. who

Margarita Gurri: 31:26

have the courage to tell us if that didn't go so well. When you know, you want to redo that, you know, and I think

Ron Carlucci: 31:36

the hard litmus test is this for if you're a leader, if you don't have somebody coming into your office once or twice a week, telling you something that makes you uncomfortable, can be very confident your leadership sucks. Because they're telling somebody, you are the topic of stories at the dinner table of people you eat every night. If you don't know what story if you don't know what stories they're telling, you should want to find out.

Margarita Gurri: 31:58

Oh, that's fun. All right. Well, Rabbi, I think it's time for the word of the day.

Yonason Goldson: 32:05

It actually is. And Ron, you teed this up for me perfectly. I've been saving this word. For weeks, I've been waiting for just the right opportunity. And that moment has arrived. It's a word that I heard from the British satirist Andrew Doyle. And it's always impressive to me when people use words like this in conversation was I've never heard of before, but the word is kazoo history. Never heard of kazoo history. Now when I heard it, I thought it was a manufactured word from kazoo noise coming with that sort of resembles music but isn't as it really. But I looked it up. And I found no, it's actually a an authentic word. And it means a process of reasoning that seeks to resolve moral problems by extracting or extending theoretical rules from a particular case, and reapplying those rules to new instances. So you know, sort of like Kantian philosophy, I take the personal and I extend it to the universal however, it's commonly used as a pejorative to criticize the use of clever but unsound reasoning, especially in relation to moral questions. And I think that that's exactly what we've been talking about here. If we've already made up our minds, what we believe and what we think is right and what we want to do, and then we go searching for the facts, and the logic and the arguments that are going to support that predetermined conclusion. We are descending into the nether worlds. And we're really setting ourselves up for tremendous failure, but to have the, the intellectual integrity, the intellectually humility, to say, I don't know what the truth is where the truth lies, but I want to find it. And now I use my data collection, collecting resources, and I use my my human logic to guide me in an authentic search for truth. I believe we will get there, especially when we surround ourselves with people who are similarly committed. And if we do that, we're going to create environments and societies and communities that are healthy that produced the kinds of heroes that inspire us, and not the kinds of villains that we hear way too much about.

Margarita Gurri: 34:39

And Well, speaking of heroes, see what you inspired Ron, that's a good word.

Ron Carlucci: 34:46

That's a good word.

Margarita Gurri: 34:47

So do you have some final words of wisdom? For our audience? I have to say that I'm beginning to see you as Fred Rogers with the sweater but maybe also a cape. A superhero came to help everybody with truth, justice and the American way or perhaps purpose. So what do you say, sir? Final words of wisdom?

Ron Carlucci: 35:13

Gosh, it's the rabbi's a tough act to follow there. I think I would build on what he said and start every interaction you have with. All I see is it all there is to know. All I know isn't all there is to know. We all have cognitive biases, we all have templates to which we interpret the world that was, we're certain of our brains are miserly. They're lazy organs. They don't they don't want to work hard. And when you feel a moment of pitch of defense of something, somebody says, Does this fit your tempo to the world? Step back and you should kazoo history. And ask yourself, is there another way to see this? Must I respond and universal universe there universalize their truth as my life? Could it be that there's more to know? And let yourself be curious enough to suspend disbelief in that moment and let someone else's truth prevail alongside yours? If even if you'd never agree, find out who who was the person in your organization that when you hit her name, you sneer that when you you see them on your caller ID you think or whatever they want? Who's your day? And what would it take for your day, to become part of your week. Pick up the phone and go have coffee, and just decide that there's something about them till they're because remember, you're somebody's day too. But make the decision that somebody that's your day is causing you to miss out on part of the world and go and make one of your days part of your week.

Yonason Goldson: 37:04

I love that. I mean reaching out to people that are difficult for us to connect with is really the best possible prescription for creating harmony bringing us together and creating a more cohesive community remind me that the Nobel Prize winning economist Daniel Kahneman, he says Our brains are wired for what you see is all there is right. And if we're aware of that, and we make a conscious effort to look further look deeper, look beyond, there's so much that we can discover that will create a whole new VISTA envision for us. So thank you so much for your time. Thanks for being with us. And thank you for your work. And we hope you come back and join us again, because this has been an absolutely delightful discussion.

Ron Carlucci: 37:52

It's been a pleasure. Thanks so much for having me. And thanks for both of your work in the world. To make it more Justin Trudeau please. Doctor,

Yonason Goldson: 38:00

what's the last word?

Margarita Gurri: 38:02

I never shorted word.

Yonason Goldson: 38:04

Are you the last word?

Margarita Gurri: 38:07

Well, I'm gonna go back to something that Ron crude, she said on one of his talks that I think if we want to have truth, justice and purpose for ourselves, and help others with their truth, justice and purpose, I believe that what it takes is to cultivate curiosity, this these are from your four patterns of success, curiosity, ability to build bridges, courage, and empathy. So ask yourself, from whom can you make the difference today? And I think that we will be flying high and making the world a better place. Well, that's all I had to say. Thank you, gentlemen, for being a big part of this amazingly positive discussion. And not only ethics matter, but they can change the world. Thank you, the rabbi in the strength that we will see you at the next episode, and I can't wait to hear your comments and questions for Ron Colucci. Please do read his book. It's going to be it's already available on Amazon along with his others to be honest with power of truth, justice, and purpose. Until then, we'll see you next week.

Unknown: 39:22

Thank you for listening to the rabbi and the shrink every day ethics unscripted. Two book Dr. redshield, Dr. Margarita Gregory or Rabbi Jonas and Goldson as speakers or advisors for your organization, contact them at the rabbi and the shrink.com. This has been a doctor Red Shoe production