The Rabbi and The Shrink

#63: Eliz Greene - Low Stress for Great Success

May 26, 2022 Rabbi Yonason Goldson and Dr. Margarita Gurri, CSP Episode 63
The Rabbi and The Shrink
#63: Eliz Greene - Low Stress for Great Success
Show Notes Transcript

What causes stress and what will relieve it?

If work-life balance isn't the cause of our stress, what is?

Can you reorder your stress environment


These and other urgent questions for our personal well-being when anti-stress guru Eliz Greene joins The Rabbi and the Shrink.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/elizgreene/

https://elizgreene.com/


1:00 Lessons from cardiac arrest while carrying twins

A bubble of contentment protects us from tragedy and trauma

Where we want to be vs. where we need to be

It’s harder to watch someone you love going through uncertainty

Denying our pain can be fatal

Subtle pain can be just as deadly as intense pain


9:00 Gauging early warning signs against the fear of hypochondria

Job stress can have consequences at home

What causes stress and what will relieve it?

Overwhelm and uncertainty

NOT work-life balance

95% of our efforts are trying to solve the wrong problem


15:00 Stress is good in crisis, but dangerous when chronic

We’re stressed about being stressed

First responders are most at risk for stress

Pay attention to what you’re experiencing


20:00 What we can do to release stress

Changing focus relieves our cortisol level

The power celebrating little victories

The time and place for stoicism

Problem-solvers are vulnerable to difficult-to-solve problems

Wonderful is not always relaxing

Unreasonable expectations are the source of anxiety


27:00  We don’t live in joy all the time

Joy vs. contentment

How to keep stress outside my bubble

The sticky note solution

Can you reorder your stress environment

Ethics requires us to balance our responsibilities to others and to ourselves

We can’t mortgage ours health for the benefit of the team


32:00  We don’t do what we should because we know we should

Visualize what-ifs and what-if-nots

“I will because…”

Meet the goal, know why it’s important, do it your own way

Rebuke = validation, if it’s done the right way for the right reasons

The power of reward systems


47:00 The Word of the Day:  Averted vision

We perceive brightness and color through the cones that are concentrated in the fovea, the central part of the eye.  Fainter objects are more easily detected by the rods, which occupy the outer regions of the eye and perceive dim, monochromatic light.

First alluded to by Aristotle, the phenomenon called averted vision allows us to process information by looking away from an object of interest, just as a filter makes it possible to study the nuances of the sun’s surface by eliminating the intense light that makes direct observation impossible.  Since the cones that make up the fovea register brighter light, we have to rely on the peripheral rods to capture subtleties of shading.  But that only works when we look away.

We can overlook what’s right in front of us no matter how important it is

Consequences live at the periphery of our vision

Looking away can help us see more clearly



Margarita Gurri:

This is the Rabbi and the sShrink. This is Dr Margarita Gurri, the shrink, and everyone's favorite Rabbi

Yonason Goldson:

Yonason Goldson.

Margarita Gurri:

And the rabbi and I are delighted to have with us Eliz Greene welcome.

Eliz Greene:

So excited to be here.

Margarita Gurri:

We are delighted. You had an interesting conversation with the rabbi recently, and you got on our radar, we just had to have you on ILAs green is an odd combination of skills. She's funny, as all get out, she's a serious stress researcher. She is an MC, whether it's in person hybrid, or through remote means. Clearly a facilitator, she's an author of four books, stress proof, your life, stress proof, your heart, busy Woman's Guide to a healthy heart and embrace your heart. She has won the Heart Hero Award for 2010. While most of us were wearing your pajamas and hanging out in the early parts of COVID, the Liz was getting an award. So I think, you know, hopefully you didn't have to get too dressed up for that. And join the rest of us in our PJs at home. I think that the thing that strikes me the most as a psychologist, is you're using a life story. And I'll let you tell your own story. To make the world better, not only for yourself, but for everyone else. And you're working on helping people have low stress with in great success and creating cultural culture, corporate culture, say that three times that are immune to overwhelm, and uncertainty. Well, welcome. Tell us please your story. Let's start with that it's very compelling.

Eliz Greene:

Oh, I am so delighted to be here. And the story. The short version is back in 2000. If we get back in the Wayback Machine and go all the way back to 2000. I was 35 years old and delighted to discover that I was pregnant. We had five years of infertility. And these, you know, it was just miraculous that finally something works. And we were so delighted. And then very quickly, we discovered, not only was I pregnant, I was pregnant with twins. I had about three good weeks, and then wild, wild amounts of morning sickness for the first full trimester. I then again I had two pretty good weeks, and then started preterm labor and was on bedrest for the rest of my pregnancy, including a full month in the hospital on bedrest, which, I have to say, was not within my birth plan. No, it was not, that was not part of the plan. But it was exactly where I needed to be there in the hospital on a Sunday morning where I was taking my shower, that was my reward if all if the labor stayed at bay. So I couldn't have seven contractions in our six word problem. So as long as I had seven or less, or is that the wrong way? No, that was the wrong way. I could have five contractions in our six was a problem. So as long as it was five or less, we were good. I can have a shower of sitting down shower, when I started to have what I thought was heartburn. And because I was enormously pregnant, I had heartburn all the time. But this was different. And I originally rang for the nurse and asked for an Anna acid, which was pretty much common practice. But in a very short period of time that pain changed. I started to throw up and I met my own eyes in the mirror and realize that something was really wrong. And I needed help. Fortunately, in the hospital, got help right away. There was a flurry of activity. So most of what was necessary, was in the room when my heart stopped. And, again, great care right away. They were able to use a defibrillator, restart my heart. They took me to the cath lab figured out what was wrong. And then I had an emergency cesarean to deliver the girls and open heart surgery to fix my heart. So I ended up having a C section, triple bypass, oh and a period of a very short time. I however, had really good drugs. My husband had the worst day of his life. Oh, yeah. So it was a changing day having twins would have been a no off. But that overwhelming uncertainty of all of that put together was a lot. But I think I was the only person who came out of that experience knowing that it was all going to be okay. I had, I knew I was going to be okay. And I was able to stay calm and just go through. And that was something that I knew was very special, that as long as I had those two beautiful little baby girls, and my husband, I could withstand anything else, just needed that little bubble of contentment. And that knowledge, I knew was unique. I had somewhat of a vision of sharing that in a group of people. And I knew that that was the mission that I was on that I needed to share this story to help other people. And that's what I've been doing. My girls are 21 years old, and they're healthy. I'm healthy. And that's the journey with tonight. Well,

Yonason Goldson:

it is a remarkable story. And there are a couple of points in there that perhaps we can we can get to the course of our conversation. One is you said that it wasn't where you wanted to be, but it was where you needed to be. Yeah. And that's a mindset that we can all use. When we get into those types of situations, certainly as a theological idea, but from a psychological point of view, it can it can really change our whole perception. And then the other thing is that is it was your husband's worth today? Oh, you know, often the people who appear to be the ones having the worst time. It's not always the case. No, just the people close to them.

Unknown:

I honestly, in that situation, I think it is always harder to be the caregiver. Yes to. It's always I, you know, if I get to choose, I want to be the one that has the illness or the injury or whatever. No, I want to be the caregiver. But but it's, it's really hard to watch somebody love go so through something that there's no way that you can control it. But you have nothing, that uncertainty that overwhelm. That's the kind of stress that and yet we don't get to.

Margarita Gurri:

Oh, absolutely, no, he couldn't do anything. He was absolutely of love and certainty that got you through, you said something else that I think is one of the keys to survival, especially maybe for women sorry, Rabbi to exclude you on this. I want you to feel your inner woman, all right, the whole idea of women denying their pain. And you said you looked in your eyes and you knew something was different. And you saved your life with the help of a team that you've initiated by noticing something was seriously different than just discount that?

Unknown:

Well, in particularly when it comes to heart issues for yes, our symptoms are very different. Yes, they are. It that doesn't mean that men can have a heart attack and have very subtle symptoms, too, they can. But generally, men will have that sort of television, grab their arm crushing chest pain sort of symptoms. For women, it may be that heartburn feeling or just a stomach upset that you can't really explain. Or like weird pain that goes up into your jaw up your neck, that sort of thing. Where it is just so subtle, and it doesn't clue you in necessarily that this is Oh, this is my heart. But really anything from your hips to your you know, the bottom of your chin that is just off and you don't know why it's there. It's not I raked leaves. And now my shoulder hurts. It's my shoulder hurts. And I don't know why. And it's not allowing me to do what I normally do. That's a big clue. And you should get help.

Yonason Goldson:

It is somewhat bewildering, sometimes this you know, we all especially as we get older, we all get these little aches and pains and things. This isn't quite right. And you know, and we don't want to be hypochondriacs, and there's probably nothing. And on the other hand, if we ignore it, and it turns out to be something now we've got serious problems that could have been avoided. So I mean, that itself, I think produce a tremendous amount of stress. That I just don't know, is this something I should act on or should I just give it some time? and expected to go away.

Unknown:

Listen, I have been in the emergency room three times, knowing pretty significantly that what I was experienced experiencing wasn't another heart issue. Good. But I still go, because it's better to be told it's GERD then end up having something real damage to your heart, which now you have to deal with, instead of being able to catch it early and have an intervention that prevents

Yonason Goldson:

the damage. You No,

Margarita Gurri:

absolutely. One of the things that you have been so good at turning this experience into a life saving experience for lots of individuals and huge groups of people is your stress proof testing tool. I love the name of that I find it hard to say stress testing tool.

Unknown:

It's very chewy. Yes,

Margarita Gurri:

I love it. But tell me about that. I'm intrigued.

Unknown:

Part of what I did in the research to write my book stress proof your life is look at what was causing job stress for people across a wide variety of industries, internationally, men, women, all kinds of different types of jobs and job positions. And honestly, what I was looking for, was to be able to quantify what work life balance looked like for professional women. That's what I was looking for. But in order to get that you have to test a larger dataset, right? So I developed with a PhD researcher, a five minute survey basically that asked people questions about how stressed they are, what are the what are the factors that are causing that stress? What would be useful to relieve that stress. And then of course, some demographics so we can slice it, and dice that all kinds of different ways. What was surprising, when all of the data came back, the first set about 4000 people, when we sliced and diced it, or we looked at the big dataset, only about 5% of people said something related to work life balance was their biggest cause of stress. What most people said was overwhelm, and uncertainty, and overwhelm are things like the pace of work, the amount of things you need to get done in the time allowed. Short staffing, those sorts of things are overwhelmed. Those are things outside of our control. Work life balance, we defined as things like my job is negatively impacting my health. That or my job is impacting my relationships, or my relationships or impacting my ability to do my job. Little tiny wedge of people said that that was their top stressor. And then when we just looked at women, because I thought, Oh, well, this will be different, right? Still, only about 5% of women said work life balance issues were their top stressor. And then when we looked even closer to women who have children living at home under the age of 17, it was still that little wedge just about 5% of people. But for those people, instead of my job is negative Lee impacted my health. They said caring for children was their top stressor, which for some people, caring for children, is very stressful. And I wish we would have asked the age of the children because I'm pretty sure those children are either aged zero to three, or juniors in high school. Some stressful years. Very stressful years. But so often, organizations focus their stress management tools on that work life balance piece. Yes, which leaves out 95% of the people, which is trying to solve the wrong problem, really. And if overwhelming uncertainty, things that we absolutely cannot control over the top stressors. We need tools in order to live and work well under the stress we can't avoid. Which is how I put together the book.

Margarita Gurri:

I think it's brilliant. I can't wait to read it. I'm always reminded of Dante's Inferno with the lowest level what had to do with Limbo which is uncertainty right right. Right and I think that in the rabbi wrote his his book on the Andre grappling with the great uncertainty. So one of the issues is, I think uncertainty is that portal for a bunch of stress, and a bunch of interestingly, yucky experiences. And by interesting, I don't know,

Unknown:

interestingly, yucky. I've liked that turn of phrase.

Margarita Gurri:

It's very sophisticated, because you know, almost it goes,

Yonason Goldson:

it's pretty hard as well. Yeah, I

Unknown:

think she should definitely trademark that. Well, you know, I talk about stress in lots of different ways. And, you know, Dr. Mark, Mark, really, I'm sure you talk about this, too, is that there's a natural reaction in our body. When our brains notice a stressor in our environment, cortisol or stress hormone goes up, it does all kinds of things, makes our heartbeat faster, raises our blood pressure, it makes our blood stickier. So if, for example, the stressor is I'm going to get in a car accident right now. Maybe you don't bleed to death. All of those things are great. If you're about to get in a car accident. It's not great. If uncertainty is constantly triggering that reaction. Yes, because the car accident, if you're able to avoid it, you get that sort of weird tingly feeling after that, because that's all that cortisol leaving your body. If uncertainty or overwhelm, is constantly there, that cortisol level never has a chance to calm down. And none of us need a higher heart rate, higher blood pressure or stick your blood. That's why stress is a major risk factor for heart disease. That's how those things are related.

Yonason Goldson:

There's a there's a TED Talk by Kelly McGonigal. I love that one. Yeah. And the biggest takeaway for me from that was that the thing that we're most dangerously stressed about is stress. It's not stress, it's bad. For us, it's the stress of being stressed.

Unknown:

It's very easy for us to get acclimated to a level of stress. And think that that's an okay level for us to be at. And then our bodies, our bodies are super smart, that stress will eke out in ways that that may surprise us. And I've been working with a group in the hospitality industry. Those people have been through the trenches, and a lot of them are still in the trenches right now. Yes, they are. And I've had a number of people tell me that they just don't know what's going on with them, that they're easy to cry, they're easy to be angry, they're laughing at situations we're laughing seems on appropriate, inappropriate. And my reaction to that is, yeah, that's how your body's getting rid of the cortisol. It is, it is going to come out in some way. When something physically changes for us, it is an indication that something has changed. And maybe it's time to let go of that cortisol. And, and so if you're crying, your body is helping you out. It's not something to be ashamed of, or question your sanity about. It is a reaction. And once you recognize that, this is a completely natural and acceptable reaction to the crazy environment that you're in, you're dealing with things that people shouldn't have to deal with over the long term. And there can be a wide variety of symptoms of those things that we may not recognize as stress, you know, that anger the crying the sadness, the guilt? Oh, I am sorry. Um, your knee that sort of thing. Um, I Well, that is my husband who will bring through when I have Do Not Disturb on because that is our

Margarita Gurri:

rule that that is nice that he had that privilege. That's good. Yes. He doesn't do tell him hi for us and things

Unknown:

when I call him back. So anyway, the the idea of paying attention to what you're experiencing is recognizing that that anger, that side sadness, the anxiety, sort of on edge feeling. All of that is an indication that stress has been building up and maybe you didn't notice, and it's time to take some time and really practice some skills to get that cortisol level back down to normal so you can recover from the stress you can't

Margarita Gurri:

avoid. So what I've been seeing in a lot of the groups with whom I've consulted or so Okay. All three of us are consultants and speakers. And especially in the hospitality industry, or very front facing businesses. I've seen a lot of people, especially the women feel very ashamed that they're not managing the stress. Well, yeah. And instead of then, you know, they feel guilty and ashamed. And they might be blaming, instead of looking at awareness, they're just piling it up. And so I think you have a delicious solution. You came up with a series of funny things to help release cortisol. So please enlighten us.

Unknown:

I think you're talking about the whoo, whoo, is it right? Yeah. So one of the things that we can do to signal our body that it's time to let that cortisol go is to change our focus. We are naturally designed to look for problems to solve, and especially highly capable people are constantly on the out, look for problems, like, wow, there's a problem, I'm gonna go fix that oops. And it's constant, right? Every time we noticed a problem, though, that's a stressor aren't cortisol goes up, which makes us focused, which allows us to solve that problem. So stress isn't the enemy here, it's not good or bad. It's just a natural reaction. If we can just for a little while, take a break from looking for those problems, and focus on what's possible and what's positive. It changes that focus, it signals that something's different, allows that cortisol to come down a bit. And I love the woohoo, as a key to this and the woohoo, all it is, is a sharing something positive with somebody else. And I'm firm believer in celebrating all victories, no matter how small they are. Back in the day, when my girls were little, and it was hard to get girls, little girls out of the house and to school on time. And we were not making it even though I'm embarrassed to say we live three houses down from you know, you would think that we could be on time more often. But the line between on time and late when you live three houses down from the school is pretty thin. So we were not making it until we got a little phone call from the principal. And said we would like you to be on time more often. And so we had Woo's every day when I managed to get my girls to school on time. You know, just celebrating those little things, no matter how small they are, just allows you to celebrate that little victory. And when you share it with somebody else, it allows them to share something positive with you to and celebrate. And it changes that focus from looking from for the problems to something very positive.

Margarita Gurri:

And focusing on the positive.

Yonason Goldson:

Yeah, well, it's, you know, something, just the way you said that made me think that, you know, I think we have a predisposition to turn little problems into big problems. And, and to ignore little victories altogether. And I think it'd be a lot healthier if we did the opposite. You know, when you when you're talking about this sense of being out of control, again, certainly from a spiritual religious point of view. I know for myself, that the most difficult times for me is when I imagine I'm in control, or think I should be in control, when in fact, I'm not. Because when I recognize that I'm not in control, that can actually be quite, it can really be a source of peace. I have nothing. There's nothing I can do about this. So why should I let myself get upset about it? Wait for something where I can actually deal with it. And then I can you know that I can use that that stress response to actually find solutions.

Margarita Gurri:

Back to stoicism, you know, yeah. About my mother used to tease about men. My you know, I come from a Cuban background. And there's a lot of teasing about men and women. And he said, I don't tell men the truth, because, you know, they think they're in charge. We don't want them to get upset. And I just think that's very funny. I mean, she had a great relationship with my dad, and it was strictly fund teasing, but it's the truth that we all have this fantasy that we're in charge. And absolutely, and we're really not in so many ways. We're in charge of our response or what we do about it.

Unknown:

No, when they think that I'm sorry, go ahead. No, that's

Margarita Gurri:

okay. Which reminds me you have your sticky note solution, which I love. Right, right. I,

Unknown:

I want to touch on two things, though, before we move there. One is for men in particular, but highly capable people, when they're used to being able to solve problems, like that's their job and a lot of their relationships, solving those problems, when you come up against one you can't solve. It is so vulnerable. And a lot of us when we're highly capable people don't like feeling vulnerable. And that is part of that stress of like, I don't like this, I don't feel like I'm doing a good job, I don't feel like I'm living up to the expectation of how I am in the world. And that is very uncomfortable, and stressful for people. Recognizing, as the rabbi said that this is outside of my control is helpful. But I also think finding things, even small things to control, when you're going through a period of that uncertainty is very helpful. I think it's why we all cleaned out our basements in our attics when COVID started, because when things feel out of control, if you can put something in order, it feels good, it feels better. And the act is something that can reduce that stress.

Margarita Gurri:

And why Rabbi has headset on because he can control noise with happy big family and his house is beautiful.

Yonason Goldson:

It's a perfect example that, you know, we've my entire family this year, and my four kids to my son and my daughter line or two grandchildren. And and it's wonderful, but it's definitely not relaxing. And so there is that tension. And in some ways, it's I have to be conscious not to feel a little bit guilty, that I'm not just exuding joy, and and happiness. Because I'm used to having my house to myself, nesters, and we love it that way, right? We love it when they come out. We love it when they leave. And that's fine. But sort of these unreasonable expectations that I should be responding differently from the way I am, that itself gets us into a distracted sight.

Unknown:

Yeah, we can shoot ourselves into a crisis pretty pretty quickly. And I, I want to touch on something you said in terms of being exuding with the joy. And I think we do a disservice to people when we spend a lot of time talking about joy and happiness. Because those are fleeting, right? We don't live in joy, all of the time, we have joy, periodically, I really like to focus on contentment. And if I can be content, and this is now we're getting to the posted exercise, if at the center of my environment of my stress environment, because we're all stewing in a in a soup of stress out there. If I know who, who needs to be in my bubble of contentment. My husband, my two daughters, me, that's it. As long as everybody is okay, I can put my head down on my pillow at night, take a deep breath and go to sleep in contentment, that this is okay. If I know who's important, if I know who's in my bubble, I can push all of those things that I can't control to the outside and not let those things impact that bubble was contaminated. And that is the process that I've used for myself because I have a super surgically repaired heart. I do not need extra stress to put on my heart. Like I do everything I can to make sure that I get to be here for my family. So I try to keep all those I'm not perfect at it. But I try to keep all of those things I can't control that stress of those things outside and not let them impact the people who are most important to me that bubbles contentment. And so when I work with groups, on overwhelm, we do a cataloging exercise with sticky notes where you write down all the things that you are investing your time, energy and attention to and look at them and discover in rate them on. Is this thing, enhancing that bubble of contentment, enhancing your quality of life or is it detracted? In Can you reorder your stress environment intentionally in a way If that allows you to spend your time energy and attention on the things that enhance your life, and push those things that detract to the outside.

Yonason Goldson:

You know, this is, I think a good opportunity we always start with this is a program about ethics, tie this subject back into ethics, and I think you've just teed it up so nicely, Oh, good. Well, you know, we have responsibilities to other people, we have to be there for our families, we're in our careers and our communities. And if, if I don't take care of myself, then I'm not going to be performing optimally, to discharge my responsibilities. And if I really put myself in danger, then I may not be there at all, for the people who are counting on me. So while we tend to think of ethics, I like to say ethics is the discipline of recognizing and taking responsibility for the impact we have on others. But that's not just what we do publicly, our private inner behavior is going to be projected outwards. And so these forms of self care we've spoken about in other programs, but what you're really describing is finding the weight exerting the discipline, becoming aware of how I can manage those elements of life that are going to impair my ability to be responsible to those who need me, that is very much an ethical mindset.

Unknown:

I would completely agree with you. And one of the things in the interviews with leaders for the book I discovered is so often leaders are mortgaging their own health, for the good of the team or assuming for the good of the team. But that doesn't work. You know, as you said, if you're not taking care of yourself, eventually that comes home to roost. And also, you're setting a horrible example for your people. If you're not taking your vacation, if you're not actually taking care of yourself. Other people don't feel that they can do the same.

Margarita Gurri:

That's absolutely true. You tell a charming story about being sent home with marching orders from the hospital that you need. And you found a delightful way of doing that. Please share that story. Because I think we find excuses not to do things the perfect way. But you found a way to do it your fun way.

Unknown:

Yeah. So there's there's kind of two prongs to that. The first one is we very rarely do anything, because we've been told to do it, or we have the information on it. We don't. And you would think having a heart attack at age 35 would have turned me into the biggest workout queen in the world. I mean, I told you, I have a damaged heart. And I was sent home from cardiac rehab, with the instructions that I needed to do 30 minutes of cardiovascular exercise every day to make everything heal. So you would have thought that would be enough. But it wasn't because, well, I was about to say I had babies, I was recovering. I was tired, really, I just plain didn't want to. And I had a bike on a stand in the family room that I was supposed to get on for 30 minutes a day. And I absolutely wildly hated that. But I just I didn't want to do it. And I didn't do it. And in fact, it didn't do it until my husband sat me down one day. And he said, I see what you're doing. And more importantly, I see what you're not doing. You're not doing the work to get better. And I had all the excuses. But he said that doesn't matter. None of those things matter. If you don't do the work, you're not going to be here. And if you're not here, our family doesn't exist. And in that moment, I saw all the things that I didn't want to mess with my children. I want to see those little girls grow up and go off to school want to be their Girl Scout leader. It was amazing to watch them graduate from high school. I did not cry when we dropped them off at their individual dorm rooms at their individual universities in front of them. But, you know, they're amazing young woman and I can't wait to see what they do next. But I know for sure. If I don't do the work. I'm not going to get there. I'm not going to see them get married. I'm not going to see our our grandchildren come into our family. So I have to do the work. It's those moments that make it possible for me to get on the stupid bike. for not eating fried chicken at every meal, even though I really love it. It's the reason to do the work. It's those moments that you don't want to miss that makes it possible. So I often tell people I work with that you need an I will because statement, I will get on the stupid bike, because I would really like to meet my grandchildren in the future sometime after they get married and all that. But that combination makes a difference. And then you're right. It isn't always about getting on the stupid bike. Sometimes it's about spending 30 minutes dancing around your kitchen. Or actually dancing while you're brushing your teeth. I can't tell you how many people tell me after they've seen me, oh, now I brush my teeth by you know, wiggling my hips and just being active for that two minutes. Every minute counts. If you can get, you know, 10 minutes here in 10 minutes there and 10 minutes another time that counts. If you can get 10,000 steps in a day that counts is just about meeting the goal. And knowing

Margarita Gurri:

why it's important. And doing it your own

Unknown:

way. It absolutely doing it your own way that

Margarita Gurri:

was very powerful of your husband to step up in a non blaming way, telling you, you know, hey, you know, I think that the rabbi talks a lot about everyone's responsibility in an ethical dilemma. And then I talk about communication, how do you bring it up? Without making it worse? How do you bring it up in such a way that is inspiring, or gets the person to notice something differently? It's a hard thing to do. What do you think about that the the witnesses responsibility to help us whole?

Yonason Goldson:

I think you're free to perfectly doctor and I know it's it's something that I I'm challenged, have been challenged by for a very long time. You know, it's easy to recognize when things are wrong. We're all very good at that. And it's easy to point out to someone why they're wrong. If I if I what what should I be wanting to do. And I mentioned this a number of times, and I'm sure I will again, because I find it so powerful that in Hebrew, there's a as a biblical commandment to rebuke our fellow human beings. But the word for rebuke in Hebrew shares its root with the word that means to validate. Because when I am rebuking you, what I'm really saying is, I believe in your capacity to do better. And if I can, if I can frame it that way, you know, the timing, the pick the right moment, do it in private. Let it be clear that this is not coming from my place of power, or criticism. But from my genuine concern, and my genuine desire that we should all do better for the sake of ourselves and for each other. And what I'm really doing is I'm validating you, I'm sick, I believe in you, and your capacity to improve. And if I can, if I can communicate that, with my timing and my words and my tone of voice, and as Jenna genuinely sincere, because people will see through it. If it's fake, then it really there's nothing that is confrontational. There's nothing that's demeaning. Just the opposite.

Unknown:

Right. Interesting that you're talking about validation. One of my daughters is a psychology major looking to apply to grad school to become a psychologist, Dr. Margarita, well, good.

Margarita Gurri:

If she needs any input, I'm always a never shorted opinion.

Unknown:

We may need to talk offline about that. But on her driving her back for spring break, we spent that entire trip talking about validation. Oh, I know it was it's, it's amazing when your kids get smarter than you. Right? Like, it's it's real

Margarita Gurri:

hope it gets there. And we're so proud. But at the same time we go, we get we do look what happened.

Unknown:

Right? So just talking about I spend a lot of my time when I'm working with a client and talking to leaders, validating now I have the name for what I do, validating that what they're experiencing is a completely reasonable reaction to the situation. And there is value to that. That just being told what you're doing how your reaction reacting isn't wrong. Not when you validate somebody and say, like, I understand what's happening here. And I would like to help you see a different way. That's the right combination. So my husband did absolutely validate that he understood, my struggle helped me see a different way. And the magic that I don't always share, put in a reward system.

Margarita Gurri:

You're allowed to know the reward.

Unknown:

Yes. So he said, If I could, because you know, he was helping me develop a habit. If I could get on the stupid bike 100 days in a row, he would buy me anything I wanted. Oh. And it really was something that shifted my ability, because now I know I can do it. It's not a question about whether I can get on the stupid bike or do whatever I need to do my Pilates in the basement or daily walk, whatever it is, I know I can. Now it's whether I choose. And it's an entirely different thing, and having your reward for making the choice.

Yonason Goldson:

That's Hold on, it's so powerful, because even when we want to do things, I heard a Rabbi say something from his rabbi that I think is absolute genius. He said, You will never have any shortage of legitimate excuses for not doing what you ought to be doing. And that word legitimate, you know, it's so it's so important. Because we think of excuses. As you know, we're making stuff up, we're making up reasons. Now, they might be real, legitimate, honest to goodness, reasons why this is difficult. But that doesn't have to be an impediment. And sometimes just the counterweight, we need something on the other side of the scale to give us a little more of, to exercise our free will. And when my father, you know, my parents, you know, they were born a long time ago. And you know, during the age when everybody was smoking, and, and my father decided he wanted this to quit. And so he made a deal with a friend. That which they would stop smoking, whichever one smoked first would have to pay the other one, I think it was $100, which, which is the 50, which in the 50s was, you know, not an insubstantial amount of money. And he said he used to have dreams that he was smoking, he'd wake up, he wasn't sure he actually lost the battle. And then when he married my mother, who was still smoking, she was a secretary. And that's really all it did. And he said, I'll pay you and I forget what he paid her. And he actually gave her the money. And he said, I'm paying you this, use this to stop smoking. If you smoke, you have to give it back. And, you know, we want to do things. Sometimes we just needed a little bit help. And if we look for wisdom helping each other. That's absolutely effective. Really powerful.

Margarita Gurri:

Yeah. Not so much about the money or the thing you buy. It's, it's kind of about winning about the other person being proud of us meeting a goal. It's very exciting to have it that way.

Unknown:

Yeah, well, it's that victory, right? Is it we so often in our busy, stress lives? Don't stop to actually celebrate the victory?

Margarita Gurri:

Well be it's about time for the word of the day from the rabbi. But I'm going to do something out of order rabbi, if you don't mind, is it seems I know how unusual for me to break a rule.

Yonason Goldson:

Order the podcast order the podcast

Margarita Gurri:

ILAs. Here's my question. What's the next adventure for you?

Unknown:

Hmm. That's a really interesting question.

Margarita Gurri:

Well, thank you, the rabbi and I came up with that next adventure.

Unknown:

Yes, ma'am. Is I have been privileged to work with organizations who really value their people, but who are also under a remarkable amount of pressure they can't influence outside of their country. And I, every time I go into a new organization, it's an adventure because they never quite know what we're going to uncover. And that's a that's a pretty new adventure to me since the book has been out now as we're the world is opening more. And I am enjoying this adventure so much. I love learning about what people do at work and how organizations are functioning or not functioning. And that adventure has been a delight.

Margarita Gurri:

We're gonna push you about an adventure. That's personal.

Unknown:

A personal adventure,

Margarita Gurri:

I dare to ask.

Unknown:

Wow, you know, what's interesting is that I think being having a second chance at life at age 35, I don't have a bucket list, because we just tend to do those things.

Margarita Gurri:

That's living.

Unknown:

Yeah, I'm living the adventure every day.

Margarita Gurri:

such elegance, I'm sorry,

Yonason Goldson:

those nice to be here. Because you know what, what is so common is that when we do have these sort of life changing events, and we do have that momentary feeling of, I'm going to make the most of what I have left. And then a few weeks go by, and we end up right back in the same rut. And with that, you were able to take that and really use it to transport your transform your worldview and your mindset. It's, it's impressive, and it's an inspiration to all of us,

Unknown:

I think, it was definitely a gift. I often say that I was given the gift of a heart attack at age 35. And it's a gift that I feel compelled to share.

Margarita Gurri:

And that's the stoic attitude that we keep bumping into Rabbi that things aren't good or bad. It's, it's, you know, a more fatty love of fate, and facing it graciously.

Yonason Goldson:

Somebody pointed out to me recently that the word responsibility is built on the word response, which I never thought of before. It's the way we respond, determines whether we are responsible people.

Margarita Gurri:

And good rabbi is there a word of the day,

Yonason Goldson:

there is and I was debating between a couple of that your bicycle story is made me think that I choose the phrase of the day, which is Averted Vision, Averted Vision, it's a term that was coined by Aristotle. Because the way our eyes are designed, we have cones in the center of the eye, that make out sharp, clear shapes in front of us. And then we have rods, that that are responsible for our peripheral vision. And it's very common, that we can look right at something and not see it. Because it's in competition with sharper images that your cones are designed to, to pick out. But just because it's not clear and well defined, doesn't mean it's not important. And so sometimes you have to look away a little bit, in order to see something clearly, we have those out of the corner of our eye experiences moments. And it's not just a psychological thing. It's actually a physical, physiological phenomenon. And so when you were looking straight at that bicycle, all you good see was the visor. And it was up against the bicycle. But on the periphery, there were the future events, the daughter's graduation, down the line somewhere, the family events, the good health and everything that brings with us with it. We, we have to train ourselves, not to be overly focused on what's right in front of us, but to use that Averted Vision to see out of the corner of our eyes literally and figuratively, so that we can keep track of those elements that are easy to miss. If we don't train ourselves and discipline ourselves to pay attention to

Margarita Gurri:

let's see what you inspired the choice.

Unknown:

That that was good. I'm glad this is recorded.

Margarita Gurri:

I like that. Yeah, he's pithy. So how about then some final words, the wisdom from you is we've got people wanting to do better. You have all sorts of secrets, what do you say to them?

Unknown:

Be kind to yourself. Oh, and one of the things that I say to myself every day, sometimes several times a day is Life is not about perfection. It's about moving in the right direction. And there are days all of us take a little step off the path. It's getting back on the path that

Yonason Goldson:

matters. And that of course, is so fundamental to ethics that it's okay if we make mistakes because we're human beings and that's what we do. That's that's our condition. It's what we do after we make those mistakes. Do we take responsibility for ourselves? Do we to own up to whatever damage we might have caused. And until we make a plan for the future, that we won't keep repeating them, again and again and again. And your message is one that's particularly powerful for helping us develop that sense of vision and self responsibility. So thank you very much for joining us.

Unknown:

Oh, my gosh, my pleasure.

Margarita Gurri:

It was truly wonderful. And I think that you're helping lots of people, including us today. Thank you. My pleasure. Doctor, what's

Yonason Goldson:

the last word?

Margarita Gurri:

Last word of the day is I can't, I don't think I can be be kind to yourself. I like that he lives be kind to yourselves. A lot of the stress that we face has to do with expectations of who we're supposed to be, not who we really are, what life we should be having, rather than what life is in front of us or what life makes sense for us. And I think having the courage and this is where ethics come in, right, right rabbi, that courage to really look at our lives. And what is it that is our main value and our main goal, and focus on that, and making sure that we count the victories and include people in our journey because we're never alone. least we don't have to be. That's all I have to say about. So this has been the rabbi in the shrink. And we've had the pleasure of having with us, Liz Greene, and of course, our favorite rabbi. Thank you all, and we'll see you at the next episode. In the meantime, be kind to yourself.

Unknown:

Thank you for listening to the rabbi and the shrink every day ethics unscripted, two book, Dr. Red Shoe, Dr. Margarita, Drewery, or Rabbi Jonas and Goldson as speakers or advisors for your organization, contact them at the rabbi and the shrink.com. This has been a doctor Red Shoe production