Should we be more afraid of pit bulls or chihuahuas?
How do the rules of the war room apply to the rules of the boardroom?
What are the six phases of crisis response?
These and other compelling questions are addressed when retired Naval Commander Mary Kelly joins The Rabbi and the Shrink.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/drmarykelly/
https://productiveleaders.com/
How can we transform our daily professional lives in five minutes a day?
Every morning ask yourself: “What does my leadership need to look like today?”
Leadership skills prepare us to default to the right decision amidst chaos and confusion.
Proximity to greatness makes us great.
What are the ethics of self-sacrifice vs. scapegoating?
Use the Socratic method to correct bad behavior.
Influencing through facts vs. emotions.
Civility allows us to disagree while remaining friends.
Leaders have to create commonality and channel emotions in a healthy way.
Establish your reputation as a person of honor and integrity.
Value individuals for who they are, not for assumptions we make based on their identity labels.
The job of a team is to support decisions once they’re made even if we don’t like them.
Choosing character over ideology is key to success.
Earn trust and loyalty by admitting mistakes and take responsibility for them.
How do we balance hierarchical structure against individual initiative?
Word of the Day: Martinet
Successful leaders demand high standards and respect while showing respect and earning trust.
Kīnāʻole: Do the right thing, in the right way, at the right time, in the right place, to the right person, for the right reason, and with the right feeling, the first time! In other words, “Just do the next right thing!”
Should we be more afraid of pit bulls or chihuahuas?
How do the rules of the war room apply to the rules of the boardroom?
What are the six phases of crisis response?
These and other compelling questions are addressed when retired Naval Commander Mary Kelly joins The Rabbi and the Shrink.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/drmarykelly/
https://productiveleaders.com/
How can we transform our daily professional lives in five minutes a day?
Every morning ask yourself: “What does my leadership need to look like today?”
Leadership skills prepare us to default to the right decision amidst chaos and confusion.
Proximity to greatness makes us great.
What are the ethics of self-sacrifice vs. scapegoating?
Use the Socratic method to correct bad behavior.
Influencing through facts vs. emotions.
Civility allows us to disagree while remaining friends.
Leaders have to create commonality and channel emotions in a healthy way.
Establish your reputation as a person of honor and integrity.
Value individuals for who they are, not for assumptions we make based on their identity labels.
The job of a team is to support decisions once they’re made even if we don’t like them.
Choosing character over ideology is key to success.
Earn trust and loyalty by admitting mistakes and take responsibility for them.
How do we balance hierarchical structure against individual initiative?
Word of the Day: Martinet
Successful leaders demand high standards and respect while showing respect and earning trust.
Kīnāʻole: Do the right thing, in the right way, at the right time, in the right place, to the right person, for the right reason, and with the right feeling, the first time! In other words, “Just do the next right thing!”
Welcome to the Rabbi and the Shrink. This is Dr. Margarita Gurri, the shrink, and this is everyone's favorite Rabbi,
Yonason Goldson:Yonason Goldson
Margarita Gurri:and today we are delighted because we have with us, Mary Kelly, who is a retired commander in the Navy, a PhD in economics, a CSP and a CPE. And one of the most interesting brains I've ever had a chance to work and play with welcome Mary Kelly.
Mary Kelly:so delighted to be on your show today. Thank you so much for having me.
Margarita Gurri:Well, we're really excited and
Yonason Goldson:honored. He means that is a Hall of Fame speaker.
Margarita Gurri:That means a bunch of great speakers think she's great. Well, I could have told them that. So there we go. Mary Kelly. So I want to brag on you a little bit. In Spanish we have a saying Bodis. Eternity in Atlanta, we say poor thing doesn't have a grandmother because it's a grandmother's job to brag. Well, we know that Mary Kelly has plenty of grandmothers because she never has to brag. She's written 15 books that are published 40 workbooks, at least last count maybe more at tip sheets. And if you want to get a taste of how practical, funny and useful these bits of wisdom are. Go to productive leaders.com backslash free you see my dog, I love your dog, my dog agree with you. Yes, there's a we've got her train. She's, she's in charge of the podcast, Mary Kelly's latest books have to do with who comes next talking about you. So you have a business, then we're going to do that. And with your business, all sorts of succession models and ideas. One of my favorites, though, is that you have these five minute bits of wisdom your tip sheets. And so I just looked this morning at your five minute leadership Guide, which I know is more than five minutes. And I'd love for you to talk about that. So welcome, Mary Kelly, we wanted to talk to you about leadership and ethics.
Mary Kelly:I think it's such an important topic because I many leaders, I think get themselves into trouble with ethics, out of a place of scarcity out of a place of fear out of a place of pure selfishness, and sometimes just out of a space where they don't know what to do next, and they make the wrong call.
Margarita Gurri:So what do they do about that?
Unknown:So for many of my military leaders, and you have to remember I was taught by the best military leaders we have in our country and a few other countries as well. And I watched were really good people would sometimes misstep because of a maybe it wasn't a huge ethical issue. But it was well what do we do this do we do that we in the military subscribe to and we are governed by laws of war, there actually is a law of war. And that does tie into ethical considerations. So it's interesting that in the Navy, the laws of the sea, kind of preempt laws of war. So for example, you could, you know, if a ship goes down anywhere, it does not matter what's going on with you in that country, politically, your job on the high seas is to go rescue those people. Like that is an ethical thing. And all sailors are supposed to subscribe to this. It's been it's been, you know, it's 1000s and 1000s of years old, this idea of ethics on the high seas. And sometimes it's hard to do that, because it means it will take your resources, it will take your time, it will take manpower. And this in business is where I sometimes see leaders stumble where they want, they're good people, they're trying to do the right thing. But sometimes they get so caught up in what's going on, out of like I said, Fear scarcity, or selfishness, you know, self preservation, they make the wrong call.
Yonason Goldson:Would you say that it's a case of, you know, losing sight of the big picture.
Unknown:I think I think part of that is Rabbi losing sight of the big picture. But it's also sometimes you're worried about the unintended consequences that you can influence. And sometimes they're ones that you can't. So one of the solutions I came up with for this data because it's day to day stuff. I think most people are good. I realized if you watch the news, that is not what you say. But I think most people are good. I think most people try to do the right thing. But our right thing is not the same thing as your right thing. So for example, if you've ever gone to dinner, a nice dinner with your with your partner or spouse or friends, and the waitstaff takes your order, the food comes out the food is correct. But what if they just dropped the plate in front of you kind of like very haphazard, well, you're at a fancy dinner, maybe there's candles, maybe there's fancy drinks, maybe there's appetizers, maybe there's beautiful rolls that come out piping hot with both are shaped in the form of little farm animals, you know all these beautiful things, but then they just drop the plate in front of you and the mood is ruined, see the food got there. And for them, it may have been the right thing because the food got in front of you. But it's not the right thing in terms of what you're looking for, for that dinner experience. So sometimes people wanting to do the right thing means helping them clarify what that right thing is. And we cannot assume that other people's right thing is the same as our right thing. For example, if you work in fast food, and then you go to work at a five star hotel, food service is a little bit different. It just in terms of the delivery mechanism. So you know, instead of here's a paper bag, it has to be presented in a certain way on a certain side of the table and done a certain way. So I think part of our job as leaders is to articulate and very clearly define our expectation of what the right thing is. And then we have to leave it to
Margarita Gurri:I see that you've addressed the COVID and post COVID business environments. And how many people had a hard time not only articulating, but defining even for themselves. What do we do now. So if you wouldn't mind addressing the, the hopefully post COVID world that we're facing, hopefully.
Unknown:So I think in any crisis challenge or change, and I saw this during the first Gulf War, the second Gulf War, during 911. Certainly, during any crisis challenge or change, I've observed, and this has absolutely no bearing based on anything, I came over on a cocktail napkin. After a conversation where leader said, Look, I'm just so frustrated with my people, because they can't seem to get out of their own way. And I said, Well, let me help if I can. So I drew these circles on a cocktail napkin, I said, and when people are first faced with something, the first four stages of any crisis challenge of change is very myopic. It's very circle, the wagons protect what I can protect, watch out for me and my dog and my business and my job and my community and my kids and my kids, homeschooling and my partner and whatever's going on in my life. It's very myopic people tend to look at a crisis situation and say, Oh, no, like, that's the rejection phase. And then they recognize they, they realize that this is gonna go on a little bit longer, they recognize it as a problem. And then they get resolute they go, okay, we can do this. And in those first four stages, it's, think about it if you've ever had somebody in maybe a car accident, and your first thing is, Oh, no. And then right away, you say, okay, you know, is there at a hospital? What do I need to do? Where do we where can I jump into action, very quickly, you drop your life and put a bandaid fix, or whatever that means, you when you call work, you say, Hey, I gotta get to the hospital, my friends, you know, been in this car accident. So you take a very short term approach to protect what you can protect and help where you can. And then in that realization phase, which is a bit longer, all of a sudden, you realize, okay, this is gonna go on for a while, and I need to make more permanent changes. Now, you can't quit your job to go help your friend at the hospital. So what do you do, and all of a sudden, that becomes a scary place. And then you rally people around and you say, okay, we can do this, you reassure other people. And then you get people coalesced again, around this one problem. But what if everybody is facing this crisis? And that's where leaders move very quickly into stage five, which is the which is the reality stage. Got it, we understand that this is not going to go away quickly. And then in the, in the realignment part of that. It's, it's externally focused, it's how do I support others? How do I address big issues? Where do they need my resources? What can I do to help? How do I help my clients, my customers, the people around me, my community, instead of being myopic, and circle the wagons protect me, myself, my friends, my community, you're focusing on protecting and helping others. And that's where leaders, if you can get to stage six quickly, you don't have a problem with ethics, because they're externally focused. They're not internally focused. But when people are scared, when people are in a crisis situation, what I've seen is they tend to operate in a very scarcity placed mindset. So the solution for that, of course, is because you know, we have to come up with solutions. We got to help them do that. And so I wrote the five minute leadership guide, it's a book with the intent of helping especially my younger leaders who really felt like they were struggling in the past few years to figure out, what does my leadership need to look like today? And it's something you do every single morning when you wake up with your coffee or your tea. And you look at what challenges you're going to have that day. And what that is going to look like for that day, and what leadership skills you need to exercise that day, so that you can be serving others. For example, if you know you've got to have a conversation with somebody about some feedback and you're not excited about it, because nobody is what leadership skills do you need that day? I need to be empathetic. I need to practice my listening skills. I I need to be very organized before I go into this meeting, things like that. So just a daily reminder is the idea of what we need to do to make sure that we are acting as the best possible leader in an ethical way.
Margarita Gurri:I think better than any one rabbi, I think that Mary Kelly, helps people take a moment to the five minutes to really think about what they bring to the table. And what is the job? I think you do that better than anyone I know. Mary
Unknown:Coleman. Well, you're super kind to say that. And I'm also super smart to say that, well, you know, you're well, in the military, again, you got to remember that if we do something more than once, the idea is okay, that was really smart. Let's capture that somehow, and figure out how we're going to do that, again, if we do it right, one time, let's not reinvent the wheel 60 times. And I think that's been helpful for me. So when I find something, or if I see a problem, and I said, Wait, I might have an approach on that. That's where these five minute forms came from there one page. And it's, it's a five minute solution to your issue today. So maybe that issue today is focus or productivity, or, gosh, my meetings are not going very well, or my business plan is not where I want it to be, or my vision for my business has had to shift. And by sit calling it five minutes, if you're crystal clear, takes five minutes. But if you're not, it's gonna take a little longer,
Yonason Goldson:I think makes you such a remarkable resource Veritas that your military training, I mean, warfare is an allegory for so many elements of life, competition in business, often relationships. And we have our long term goals, and we have our short term objectives, and then you have the facts on the ground. And those don't always mesh nicely. And the ability to prepare ourselves so that we can respond in the moment based upon the preparation. That's something I think you are in many ways uniquely positioned to help leaders develop in themselves.
Unknown:Well, you're so kind to say that my analysis of people has not come from the, the experience you both have, you know, you've you've read the books, and you've got the degrees and you studied all the things and how people interact and all of that. Our My experience has been more watching what my leaders did, and figuring out what worked and then mapping out. Okay, so this happened, and then we have to map this out. Now what, and we, when we train leaders, you know, it's not anybody's job description, when you say you're the CEO, what does that mean? It means you run a company implied in that is you're going to lead the company. That's, that's kind of the idea. But that's not usually where people's skill set is. And for us, we try to imbue people with leadership skills, because we know, we can't plan for everything. We've got to develop leadership skills, so that you default to the right thing. And that I think is really hard, is that changing that default in our brain to defaulting to the right action, especially in times of stress. So that's why we train, you train so that your body responds in the right way. So that you can still focus when there's all kinds of confusion and chaos. And like lots of loud noises that happen when you're involved in stressful situations in the military. And the idea is with because you've trained in that environment, you can respond without succumbing to that sense of fear and scarcity. Because what we don't want on the battlefield is people who freeze. And that's what I saw in the last few years were a lot of leaders who simply froze like deer in the headlights, they weren't sure what we were facing, they weren't sure what to do next. They'd never seen it before. And they had never been given or had never fully developed, the leadership skills they needed in order to respond quickly. And in the right way.
Yonason Goldson:You've said something a couple of times that that I think I really want to focus on, that you have you absorbed from great teachers, which is different from being taught by great teachers. One of the one of the great figures in Jewish history is Joshua, who was the successor of Moses and other people into the land. And the sages are rather blunt, in telling us that Joshua was not the greatest sage or scholar of his generation. So what did they say qualified him to be leader? Well, it says that he never left the left the entrance of Moses tent. Why? Because Moses was the greatest person he knew. And he wants to be the greatest person he could be. So he said, I'm going to spend as much time as I can, in proximity to the greatest person I know and it's not because he was training to be a leader. He was just trying to be a successful human being. And in the process of that he became the leader of his generation. The
Unknown:poor Joshua. I mean, that's a really tough baton to pick up. Okay, there was Moses, and now Tag you're it, like, come on. Really, really tough role to play.
Margarita Gurri:Talk about a succession plan. Seriously. I mean, wow. And you don't have a team of Mary Kelly's to help. It'll be all right. Let's look at a five minute leadership plan. All right, Joshua, what are you gonna do now?
Unknown:Well, just for ticket, but he did. He was able and I loved. I loved how you phrase that Rabbi, You know, he sat at the outside of the tent, because you hear things you see things. A lot of times I talked to parents, and they say, I just don't know if my kids listening. I said, they may never, they may not show that. But they hear it and they see it. So sometimes as leaders, we don't know the impact, we have both good and bad. We don't know, the long reaching effect. There was there was a one of my my best naval leaders, I never worked directly for him. But there was a situation where it was an unfortunate set of circumstances and somebody needs to be the fall guy. The inspector general came out and they were looking to, you know, a figuratively hang somebody. And this guy said, Look I'm in. I'm at the end of my career. There was a conversation, they put him in that job on Monday, knowing that the Inspector General was coming out on Tuesday, and he was fired on Wednesday. And, and he took the fall like he fell on the sword because the organization itself was solid. And they just needed to show that there was action being taken, that the problem was being addressed. But somebody was going to get fired. And it was one of the most honorable things I've ever seen. You know, it was that sacrificing yourself for other people. And it was amazing to watch and go. And that's what leaders do you sacrifice yourself for the other people around you and for the organization when it's in the best interest of the organization. And we look
Yonason Goldson:at that from the other direction. Oh, I love that. They were looking at it. They were looking at as per scapegoat, essentially. Yes. Is that ethical?
Unknown:So I don't think so I think that people need to be held accountable for their actions, but sometimes in business and in large bureaucracies, that the mechanism is not always right. I know, shocking. It's not. And good. People get very, very frustrated when that mechanism is poorly orchestrated, poorly run, and it makes bad decisions. And there are many, many, many people in power who make bad decisions.
Margarita Gurri:That's true. And one of the things that Rabbi and I bumped into a lot is we've been looking at how we have the cancel culture. So many times, leaders, instead of leading or setting expectations, will find a scapegoat and say, Well, this is the solution. We're done. And I see people in the webinar we're talking about the other day, even with, even in organizations where a part of her speakers, people blaming each other and bad talking each other behind the back. And as if that's a solution. What do you do if you know somebody is just blaming someone else? And they're not taking responsibility? What do you do as a human being not as the consultant or advisor that you are? What do you suggest the everyday soul knows?
Unknown:So I'm a big fan of correcting bad behavior. When you see it, this does not always make me popular. And there's times when you have to let go, because it's nothing you can influence or impact. But I'm also the analogy I also use is, I think a lot of people right now just want to be angry. And they are very quick to blame others because they don't want to take responsibility. Is it not me? It's not me? Yep. No, I mean, I mean, putting somebody else and I, I will address that. And I use the the Socratic method, I ask questions on like, so you seem, you know, really angry, what do you actually angry about and then it really distill down to what the issue is. Now again, if this is not somebody I am working for, or working with, say it's a friend or a colleague, I will still pull people up and say, you know, I, you have every right to have an opinion. But I would like to ask you for some clarifications on the facts that got you to that opinion. And this is where most people's argument falls short because many people have feelings and opinions, but they're not based on anything other than other people's feelings and opinions. And while your feelings and opinions are yours, and they are valid. To me if you're going to try to persuade people to your point of view, then please do it based on actual facts, you know, that comes from that PhD in economics. And from teaching school for 30 years, I tell my students all the time, if you're going to write a persuasive argument, then base it on facts, not the I think I feel, I don't know. Because that for most people is not persuasive. Now, what we all know in politics is if you say things with enough emotion, enough people will follow you. And they will believe what you say even if it's 100% Wrong 100% of the time, especially if it's a negative emotion. Oh, negative emotions. Anger is a very popular emotion. People love to be angry because it gives them that sense of superiority and, and enhances their self worth. I don't have a whole lot of space in my brain to to play with anger issues. I think it's I think it's a hard place to stay long term and be happy with yourself. But when we get back to the scapegoat, ideal I'll share with you my analogy. I say it sounds to me like you're looking for a pitbull. You know, in every 10 years or so we demonize a different dog. And right now it's pitbulls. In certain cities. You can't have a pitbull within city limits. Well wait a second 10 years ago, it was Dobermans before that it was German shepherds, and I'm here to tell your entire listening audience I am never afraid of the Pitbull, the German shepherd or the Doberman, or any of those breeds, I'm afraid of the chihuahuas because, because people don't tend to correct bad behavior when it's so little and cute. And we instead we pick them up when they're barking, growling and shaking these Did you say they're their little Terminator, Hercules, Princess Buttercup, you know, it's okay. And we reward the bad behavior. So this is why I'm far more afraid of a chihuahua than a pitbull. And this is where I think as a society, we are struggling because we continue to reward the bad behavior. And as a result, we're getting more of it.
Yonason Goldson:I mean, look at the everybody says they hate negative advertising. There's that eight word, right. And yet, the studies show it's effective. So if we all hate it, why is it effective?
Unknown:You all have a better psychological insight to that.
Yonason Goldson:Your department director? Yeah.
Margarita Gurri:Well, I think Mary Kelly already said it, I think that hate with hate comes power and blame. And we have the not me. So as long as they're mad at my sister or brother, then I didn't do it. You know, plus, there's that philosophy from childhood, the first one who smelt it dealt it. So you're pointing it out. Everyone says it's your fault. You made it happen. And then you get blamed. And I think all that negative advertising is all about the not me and I didn't do this. It's it's disappointing. Part of why I created the cut of the podcast was I was very disappointed a year and a half ago, with some social media stuff. And people were being nasty and doing horrible things. talking to each other, in a way is very disrespectful and unproductive. And then I thought I'm gonna make a podcast. And then my second thought was, I need the rabbi. I met the rabbi in an ethics panel, the de burka put on two years ago, right, right, two years ago. And I liked his brain. He's male, I'm female. He's a rabbi. He's White, I'm Hispanic. I thought, Bada bing, bada boom. And it's fun. And he and I disagree often. And I like arguing. No, no, no, yes, we do. Who said that? And I liked the way we disagree and argue. And so we thought we together then we forged this podcast of teaching people how to think ethically, how to argue and debate concepts and issues and solutions in a civil manner. And how to choose right action, which is, I think, what you've been teaching people all of your life, how to do all three things. Which is why we said we got to have Mary Kelly on. Well, you're so
Unknown:very nice. And I do think we've sort of lost. I think social media has taken away some of the Civility with discussing important topics. Yes. And on my Facebook page, you know, I have friends, and a lot of them are military. Now keep in mind, we've known each other for almost 40 years. I know crazy, crazy, crazy. I don't feel that it'll be there. But what's amazing is some of my friends will get into it on my Facebook page, and I let it happen. Because I know at the end of the day, we're all still going to value each other. But I've had other people who have watched this dialogue and they're horrified because they're like, you know, this is terrible. And they're just being so unlike. They were roommates, like they know each other well, they get along, they go on vacations together. It's okay. You can have crazy disagreements and still like each other you can still appreciate other people's perspective, even though you disagree with whatever they're thinking and in the military, you know, we say it. I may 100% disagree with your thinking but I will to my death defend right to say it, and that is where I think we've lost a lot of the civility, I love a good discussion. And some, and I would encourage my classes to do the same thing. And I would divide them and say, Okay, you're going to argue pro this, and you're going to argue against this, and it would whatever the topic would be at the time I taught economics, so whether we do more monetary policy, whether we do more fiscal policy, you know, taking out of the political realm, and they're like, but I don't believe that I go. And that's what, that's why you need to learn both sides. And then once they start to get into it, and they understand the other side a little bit better, all of a sudden, we create more understanding. And as leaders, I think this is where we sometimes struggle is creating the commonality, creating the understanding, getting past the emotional response, which most emotional responses is not that great. I was I was working with a group of manufacturing CEOs just a short time ago, and they were angry at a government policy, so they were going to retaliate. And I said, Okay, so is this a good business decision? And they said, No, but we're angry. And I said, Okay, have you ever made a bad decision at home, because you were angry? How did that work out for you, but sometimes the emotional component gets really high. And people don't want to deal with those levels of emotion. And this is where I say, please go see the rabbi, please go see the shrink. Because on an emotional level, I need you to be dealing with that in a healthy way. And as a leader, people are going to follow your cue. So if you react emotionally, then they will too. In the in the Special Operators world, you know, that my our Delta Force in our force recon folks and all the really cool people of which I am not, but we teach that because you are no, no, no. But we teach them calm is contagious. And that's absolutely true. You have to be calm in the most difficult circumstances. And that's where our business leaders need to be doing the same thing. And this is hard, especially when you feel again, feelings Oh, so hard, as though you or your business is being personally attacked. Or somebody says, you know, there's, there's all kinds of ways to twist something when somebody says something, and when you feel unjustly attacked, you know, if you did it, you're like, okay, but if you feel unjustly attacked, I think the smarter you are, the more you are. So I read a study on this, the smarter you are, the more injustice bothers you at your core level other people or maybe are able to brush it off. And I'm this is not to insult anybody's intelligence. But, but this is hard for a lot of people when they say, but I didn't do that my company didn't do this, we're being unjustly attacked. And they always say, you know, innocent people react very differently than guilty people. And I think that's a lot true. So as leaders, we got to keep people out of those areas where we're going to be targets. We have to keep people in that area where people default to the good couple years ago, just because I know I'm talking way too much. But a couple of years ago, there was a fairly well known professional sports team. And some of their players were accused of attacking and assaulting women in a pretty bad way. What was amazing to me, is nobody stood up and said, There's no way those guys couldn't have done it. Like, one of my one of my classmates is David Robinson. And he graduated from the Naval Academy, he went on to play for the San Antonio Spurs. And, and it was one of the things that really bothered me, because if anybody had ever accused him of something like that, he every single person who met him would have said there's that's absolutely untrue. I know, David, I know, Tim to his core, that is absolutely never something he could have done. He is an honorable person. That's it. That is the default. But nobody came to the defense like that of these other people. And, and I think sometimes that we have to live that life, to where people would defend us at our core and say, There's no way the rabbi could do that. There's no way that Trump could do that. That's not who they are. And this, this, I think, is something that we as leaders have to cultivate, and we have to work hard to do that. But it also means doing the basics, keeping your word doing what you say you're going to do, honoring your people, giving people credit words do being that great leader in difficult circumstances, because you know what anybody can lead when times are easy. It's when things are tough that we need people. That was a very long answer to not even a question
Margarita Gurri:you thought was great.
Yonason Goldson:You reminded me a number of years ago, the local Jewish newspaper, published an article in my name that I hadn't written. That was not his mistake. It was an honest mistake. But it presented a point of view quite different from what I would have said. And you know, there were I was teaching high school and there were there were parents that were calling for me to be fired. Based on this and And and I met a neighbor, not even somebody I knew particularly well, with said to me, I know you didn't write it.
Margarita Gurri:That's nice. And yeah,
Yonason Goldson:I mean, I, that's one of the nicest things I've ever said to me is I know who you are. And I know this is not something you would have said. But, you know, recently, just I mean, we're recording this on July 5. And, and I read an article or online post yesterday, January 4, July 4, Independence Day, someone's saying I cannot celebrate independence day when the country has reached a point where we don't have our liberties, and we don't have our rights, because they didn't like a recent decision by the Supreme Court. And the inability to say, Okay, I don't like this decision. But there may be another side. And even if it's wrong, it doesn't invalidate the entire system and the entire institution. And that's exactly to your point, there is an unwillingness or an incapacity to acknowledge the legitimacy in any position other than our own. And how can we possibly succeed? How can any organization community or institution succeed?
Unknown:I think that is perfectly said, Rabbi, because it's, people want right now to be told that they're right. And they want to be validated. And I do think it comes from a place of fear and scarcity, and uncertainty. So as leaders, if we look at organizations where people kind of roll with things, not because they're blind to what's going on, but and you know, there's a reason we have, we have different parts of the government, different branches, there's three branches for a reason, and that is to, you know, help us all move forward in a good way. And you're not gonna like every decision they make for sure. But I think you're absolutely right, that we've got to be moving forward in a way that works. And leaders have there our job is to unify people, even when they have disparate opinions, even when they don't like what somebody else is saying. I have friends on all sides of the spectrum. And it was, it's always very interesting to me, when people say, Well, you are military, therefore you voted this way. You're a woman. So you voted this way. Or, you know, you were raised Irish Catholic, therefore, you voted this way. And by and large, they're all wrong. So people make assumptions about other people that I think we need to stop doing that. And we need to be looking at individuals and valuing them as individuals and stop making assumptions based on the stuff that's in our own head.
Margarita Gurri:Right. So I'm going to say something that's one of my pet peeves. I came to this country from communist Castro's version of whatever that was. And so I'm very pro American, and I love you know, I'm American, when I don't understand that is people say, Well, I don't like this decision. So I'm not going to vote anymore. When I think that people forget that part of leadership or part of freedom, is that everyone gets to inform themselves, so they can contribute to good decisions, good dialogues, good philosophies, good cultures. And I think instead, a lot of people resign, well, I don't like it. So I'm not voting. I don't like it's their fault that forget that everyone's a leader. If you have a democratic society or a republic, everyone then must contribute. And so I think that, that whether it's a corporation or not, I think people forget it part of leadership is to be a productive follower. And part of being a good follower is to be productive leader. I think it goes back and forth. So could you speak to that issue of who is the leader? And what do all of us owe to support the leadership of anyone?
Unknown:So first off, nobody's going to be 100% Happy with every decision everybody makes? Look at the relationship in your own lives. You know, everybody, the people you are closest to your family members. You disagree with them all the time? Of course you do. It's what makes us different. And I think partly we have not embraced the different I love the different the reason. Doctor what vehicle you driving right now.
Margarita Gurri:I am GMC Terrain. Love it. Great for camping.
Unknown:Perfect. Robert, what are you driving right now?
Yonason Goldson:I'm driving a Mazda CX five.
Unknown:Perfect. And I drive sort of a truck. And the reason we and let's face it, all cars are virtually the same, just like people. There's a drink cup holder, there's a steering wheel and right now there's still an engine we're all exactly the same. As humans. We're all exactly the same. Just like a car, except where we're different. And the differences are why you're driving the GMC, why you're driving the Mazda and I'm driving a truck. The differences are what we are attracted to. And that is where I think as people, we sometimes gravitate toward people who are most like us, because it's easy. And we're comfortable. The truck that I'm driving right now, guess what, I have another one just like it in Texas, because you know why? It's easy. I'm used to it. I don't have to think when I drive the vehicle. And sometimes I think people view their jobs that way, which causes them to be stagnant. They sometimes view their relationships that way, which causes them to be stagnant. Is it easy? Yes. But it's the differences where we need to embrace each other as well as ideas. I'm constantly telling business people look, if every single person in this organization thinks just like you, then you're not going to have innovation, you're not going to have strides forward. And even though you might not like their ideas, they still probably need some kind of voice, and they need to be heard. But those people saying that also need to know, hey, not every idea I have is going to get acted on just because I think it's a good idea. I had a situation in the military, when you're discussing the scenario, where I had one of my, my young enlisted leaders come into me and say, I don't like the decision the commanding officer makes on this particular thing. And I said, Okay, noted. And she just stand there looking at me and she goes, Why aren't you going to do something about it? I said, Yes, I'm going to tell you go carry out the decision. She says, but I don't like the decision. I said, it's nice to want. Because here's the thing, if the boss says today, we're going to go paint the sidewalks purple, then we are going to salute smartly and go do the best job we possibly can. Even if we think it's dumb, because sometimes I know it's a horrifying idea. But sometimes our leaders know more than us. And sometimes they've got a reason. And sometimes their decision is just not the same decision we would have made. But you know what part of our job as a good follower and as a good leader, is, once a decision has been made you salute spark smartly, it's like good parenting. We've all seen kids who tried to play mommy against daddy. But as parents, the best parents act as a united front, not your because you're against the children, just because we've made the decision, your bedtime is at 10 o'clock, that is all. And then both parents uphold that. It's the same in business, we've got to help people once the decision is made. And we flesh out all the ideas and all that we all decide on a course forward, where you may not love every bit of it. But we've decided, and so our job is to support the best for the organization based on what's going on. And some things you're not gonna like some things you're not going to agree with. It's nice to want. Well,
Yonason Goldson:I think you've perfectly summed up something that I think is largely forgotten in this country, that we're not a democracy. We're a democratic republic. And what does that mean? It means, in principle theory, that we vote for individuals that we trust, their qualifications, to do the best job possible to make the decisions that need to be made. But the concept of democracy is one in which we want to vote for people who say they'll do what we want them to do. And that means that they often misrepresent themselves, they often run into realities. So they can't do what they said they were going to do whether they intended to or not. And then so we don't trust them. We don't trust the system, we get mad because we don't get what we want. And, and the the National Trust, and one of the most it's really early instructional episodes in early American history, when Alexander Hamilton was a Federalist withdrew his support from John Adams, because he felt he didn't have the character to lead. And he supported Thomas Jefferson, who was his ideological adversary. Because he said, it doesn't matter that I agree with Adams. He's not trustworthy, to hold the office. And, and that's a mindset that we really don't see much of.
Unknown:And I think that's something people need to hear every single day. If you could put that on your Facebook page every single day, I think that'd be great.
Margarita Gurri:It's hard to know who is trustworthy, though.
Unknown:It is, and, you know, trust is based on so many different factors. But again, at the core of it is you know who you are as a person. Look, I'm gonna go out on a limb here, and I'm just going to confess I haven't always done the right thing. I haven't I've made along the way horrifying. I know. I've made mistakes. I'm super mortal and super flawed. But the goal is to get up the next day and try a little bit better is to learn from the mistakes and move forward and go you know what, when you're a leader, and you've screwed up, you go back to your team and go, Hey, I made this call and it was wrong, and I was wrong. And this is what we're going to do now. And the team goes okay, when you admit mistakes, I think it's, it's valuable. Now, ideally, if you make too many of those mistakes, you're gonna get fired. And you probably should. But moving forward, take responsibility for your actions take responsibility for your decisions, especially if they're wrong. Because that's, that's what leaders do, you're gonna make mistakes, and we have to move forward. But at the core, if you tell people, Hey, I'm going to make decisions, and not all of them are going to be wrong, but I'm going to take responsibility for it that builds trust.
Margarita Gurri:It does. And we've seen so many people who they're in jail or in trouble with their constituents, or with their licenses for professional licenses, not just as the mistake they made, but how they didn't handle it. Well afterwards, they didn't go to trusted advisors and say, Oops, I did this. What's the right thing to do? What's the industry standard? They didn't do any of that. They just hide it. They become flamingos. And I doubt right. So I think that that's trustworthy. I'm gonna look for that quote, for you, Rabbi, to see if you have it on your Facebook all the time. Alright, so we've we've been talking for a while. And I think we're at the point where we asked the rabbi for the word of the day when we come back, Mary Kelly, we want to know what's next for you. What's your next adventure? And final words I could take away that you want people to be with Rabbi, word of the day, sir.
Yonason Goldson:Well, we are almost up to the word of the day. And I'd like to ask you one question that's been on my mind, Mary, to sort of tee up the word of the day. And in a military structure, it relies so heavily upon regulations, protocols, hierarchies, following orders. Where is there room for initiative? What happens when, you know there's this this really horrifying story of during the Cold War era when a Russian general I believe, got the order to launch nuclear missiles? And he didn't follow the order. And it turned out it was a mistake. And thank goodness that we may not be sitting here right now. So how how do you do in a military structures strike a balance between preserving the order and the the protocols and the hierarchies? And at the same time, not discouraging soldiers to read the situation? And do what what may be necessary in the moment?
Unknown:Right. So that's why that general, ideally is a general is that they have been through it, they understand and they will take them, they will take that time to think through is this a lawful order, because that is an issue is this a lawful order at that level, for example, but on a more tactical level, it's leadership is individual. So when you're out to sea for, you know, six to nine months at a time, the structure is there, so that people have a routine that allows them to operate in a fairly, I'll say, it's a comfort zone, but you know, have got watch from you know, 6am to 2pm. I've got this from this, like, there's a structure there that allows for parameters. But as leaders, we served it lead individuals, you got to remember that the average age onboard a US aircraft carrier today is 19 and a half years old. So by just saying because I told you, so that doesn't work. I mean, it may have worked when I was back in, not so much, but it doesn't
Margarita Gurri:work. And I can't imagine that working for you. You still
Unknown:have to lead individuals. And that is that is the challenging part. So we, in the military, we tried to teach leadership, or we try to develop the skills of competency and understanding and fact finding and listening and making sure you've got that vision and setting goals. But on a very core individual level is being the leader people want to follow. And there were some leaders that I had that the rest of the universe, if you looked at their resume, you're like, oh my goodness, they're the greatest things ever. But when it came right down to it working for them was a very different situation. And then there were others, where people were terrified of them. And I would have gone through hell fire and water for them every single day. And you know, because that's the kind of leader they were. So leadership is still a very individual, tailored thing. So huge can't just say hey, let's go paint the sidewalks purple. Ideally, you give people the why ideally, you give them the reason why they got up that morning, you give them that motivation. And you keep that even when you're tired, even when you don't want to especially when you don't want to because you know they're tired too. That's when leadership kicks in. And that that's where you need all of your character and all of your charisma and all of your energy and all of your ethics.
Yonason Goldson:Well, thank you because that really doesn t up and this was unrehearsed. It really does tee up the word of the day, which is martinet. And there are two definitions in dictionary.com. The versus a strict disciplinarian, especially a military one. And what you've just described for us, Mary is that a person can be a leader can be extremely disciplinarian and still be someone who inspires trust, and, and, and loyalty. But the second definition is someone who stubbornly adheres to methods or rules. And that's, that's the book follower. The person who doesn't allow for any flexibility, looking at the letter in the it's a principle in Judaism, it's not enough to follow the letter of the law, you have to understand the spirit of the law, because the letter loss can sometimes be an excuse not to do the right thing. And so a successful leader in business we would call this person a micromanager is he has to do everything himself rest is to oversee every detail. The successful leader, the way I think you've presented to us, is someone who is demanding, who sets high standards, who has high expectations, but who demonstrates a sincere commitment and is willing to trust his underlings or her underlings, in order to earn their trust creates a kind of reciprocal relationship that builds a successful community, a successful enterprise.
Margarita Gurri:Totally agree. It's a good word, Rabbi. It's great word. Me, Kelly, what's next for you.
Unknown:So I am fairly disciplined in how I run my business. As you know, I get up at 6am Every single day, and I work till a good 6pm Pretty much every single day, you know, usually 567 days a week. That's just how I work. So what's next for me, as I'm working on another new book with Peter Stark on teamwork, I'm working on the follow on book to the succession planning book, who comes next with Meredith Elliot Powell. So I've got two book projects in the works. So now saying them out loud in front of all of you means that I really should be focusing more on those. And thank you for that. And I am excited to be I'm very blessed beyond blessed to have a really solid calendar moving into the fall. And keep in mind, that's not me. There's been a lot of pent up demand. And just some things that were scheduled 2020 and 2021 are finally now kicking in. So I'm very focused right now on 2023. And working on that, and doing a little bit more consulting along the way. And I feel so very fortunate with the privilege that we have been able to generate amazing friendships with people all over the planet and be able to do what we do.
Margarita Gurri:So you because you are an author and a global speaker. And I mean, you meet people wherever you are. Very nice.
Unknown:Well, that's that's the idea. I lived in Asia for about 17 years. And, you know, I've worked in different countries, and been wildly blessed to have that level of exposure to different cultures and ideas and perspectives. And I realized not everybody gets that.
Margarita Gurri:No, I'm I'm glad you gotten that. I think that's that's wonderful. Do you have a fun, a fun thing you're going to be doing? I know the books are fun. But is there some fun adventure on the country to visit something new what the dogs what's what's what?
Unknown:I just came back from Honduras. Saturday, I was in Honduras and Mexico and Belize. I worked on a cruise ship. And I'm the first one to say I did not work 12 hours a day every single day. I was on that cruise ship. I had a pretty fabulous time.
Margarita Gurri:Well, that is so much fun. All right. So now the final what are the takeaways? People been listening? They're looking at leadership and ethics. What do you want to leave them with?
Unknown:There's a great Hawaiian word I use a lot. It's called quinoa, Ole, quinoa ole it was coined by George kind of hilly and the word means do the right thing at the right time with the right spirit to the right person, every time.
Margarita Gurri:Did you say that again?
Unknown:Maybe so it's do the right thing at the right time with the right spirit to the right person, every time and Ole and I just think if we all woke up every single day, with the intent in our heart to serve each other and do the right thing for them. Not always in the way that works for us. I think it would be it would make the world a better place and I do I still want world peace.
Yonason Goldson:And that's not just the word of the day. That's a word for it. Every day. So thank you for sharing that with us. And thank you for sharing your wisdom with us. Mary Kelly, it's been absolutely inspiring. And you are inspiring
Margarita Gurri:you are
Yonason Goldson:that you took the time to join us.
Margarita Gurri:Right wisdom and the right spirit as well. Thank you so very much, Kelly. We have been less than Mary Kelly here on the red line the shrink and we'll see it our next episode. Please do catch her at productive leaders.com backslash free. You get all of the five minute tips that you never knew you needed. It's changed the way I do things actually. I've learned a lot from you tip sheet so thank you for that as well. Everyone see you soon.
Unknown:Thank you for listening to the rabbi and the shrink everyday ethics unscripted, two book Dr. Red Shoe, Dr Margarita gray or Rabbi Jonas and Goldson as speakers or advisors for your organization, contact them at the rabbi and the shrink.com. This has been a doctor Red Shoe production