#73: Jason Feifer - Navigate Change by Considering the Impossible

Why is talking about teddy bears and goldfish the best approach for solving intractable problems?

How can we avoid the pitfalls of an overscheduled life with more scheduling?

What are the five things worth having and how can we be happy if we can't have all of them?

These and other intriguing topics are addressed when Jason Feifer, Editor-in-Chief of Entrepreneur Magazine and host of Build for Tomorrow  joins The Rabbi and the Shrink to discuss the worldview presented in his new book, Build for Tomorrow.

https://www.jasonfeifer.com/

https://www.jasonfeifer.com/book/

https://www.jasonfeifer.com/build-for-tomorrow/

Here are the high points from our conversation.

Little known facts can be profoundly relevant to us.

We want to simply problems, which inhibits our ability to find solutions.

The world is full of people who have devoted themselves to studying topics that never would have seemed worth our time and attention.

Five things worth having:  Family, friends, work, sleep, fitness.

You can't have them all everyday, but you can have three in one day.  That's balance.

Schedule time away from your schedule.  Create systems to resist our system programming.

Time is like a balloon.  You don't try to find time; you commit yourself to your priorities and the time appears.

We have to challenge our preconceptions, and self-discipline is the means for making the choices we know we should be making.  Without it, we develop learned helplessness.

We have agency over our habits and choices.

How to use our time and experience to maximum efficiency.

Stacking:  grouping similar activities to reduce prep and transition time.

Vertical thinking:  Each activity is a foundation for the next step.

Don't always start with the end in mind: experimentation leads to unexpected outcomes.

Avoid topics that make people run to their corners.  Playful topics lower defenses and can lead to substantive discussion and constructive debate.

Consider the impossible and it becomes possible.

Transcript

Margarita Gurri: 0:03

Welcome to the Rabbi and the Shrink. This is Dr. Margarita Gurri, your shrink. And he is my favorite Rabbi

Yonason Goldson: 0:09

Yonason Goldson. And we are absolutely delighted to have with us Jason Feifer. He is the editor in chief of Entrepreneur Magazine. I'm gonna send that right. And full disclosure. I'm not a reader. But Jason is also the host of, I believe three podcasts.

Jason Feifer: 0:28

It was three now it's two.

Yonason Goldson: 0:30

Now it's two. But the one that really, I think we want to talk about is built for tomorrow, which the moment I found it, it became my favorite podcast. So maybe that's one answer. What I love about it is the way Jason You take you lead us into stories that we never would have imagined, would have been stories, like the controversial history of the teddy bear. Yeah. You tell it you show us things that we believe that we shouldn't believe. Like the like the the attention span of a goldfish? Yeah, yeah, lemmings don't really commit mass suicide, not at all, lifts are more important. What you do is you show us the relevance of these stories, why they're important to us, how we have to be aware of what we know or what we think we know, because that's going to influence our decisions. And that's fundamental to being ethical. And now built for tomorrow is also a book, which is coming out. Yes. So perhaps you could start off by letting us know, and thank you so much for being with us. But do you find these stories? Or do they find you?

Jason Feifer: 1:48

So first of all, thank you for that very generous introduction. And I'm so glad that the podcast has hit you in all the right ways. So I, I guess I find the stories, but the very beginnings of them find me right, which is to say that, my belief is that if you dig into something deep enough, you will discover that you didn't understand it the way that you did. And the thing that we tend to do as people, which I think is very counterproductive is that we simplify problems, we want to have a simple understanding of complex issues. And I believe that when you simplify a problem, what you really do is inhibit your ability to come up with a meaningful solution. Because the less that you understand the complexities of what you're talking about, the less you're able to actually address those complexities. So I often start with just seeing something from history in the world and wondering, is, is that quite right? This, there's got to be more to that, right. And then the wonderful thing is that the world is full of people who have devoted their time to basically every subject, right? Like if you want the person who can tell you all about goldfish memory, because you've heard your whole life that goldfish have a three second memory. Well, I guarantee you there is a person in the world who just studies that who's like literal job all day, every day is to figure that out. And that person is thrilled to talk to you. And they will reveal a much more complicated world, that once you understand it, makes you feel like it's worth trying to better understand everything around you so that you can make the best decisions possible.

Margarita Gurri: 3:34

I love that. I've started listening to your podcast as I walk. And I find myself rethinking lots of things.

Jason Feifer: 3:43

That's great.

Margarita Gurri: 3:44

I know. Thank you. It's been fun. So what are you rethinking these days?

Unknown: 3:49

Ah, what am I thinking? I'm thinking because I know what am i rethinking? Um, what am I rethinking? Well, you know, that's a good question. I I am trying to rethink the degree to which I am allocating my time to work. I will tell you right now, as we talk, I am in Colorado, which is where we're spending our summer I live in Brooklyn, New York, my family, we come out to Colorado, my parents are here. We stay with them. It's beautiful. There's hiking and biking within minutes. And it is a daily struggle to me to get out and do that because I am so consumed by the things that I have to do the work that I have to do and this is a very busy time for me because I'm preparing to launch this book built for tomorrow. So I you know, I but but my wife will. My wife just told me that she booked a fishing trip for us and the kids and she was like it will be two hours. There will be no work. And

Margarita Gurri: 4:54

I love that wife.

Unknown: 4:55

Yeah. And we are and we are we are in a car It's a negotiation for that. And I know that she's right. And she she has a good. She's pulling me in the right direction. And I feel like I need to recalibrate my own mind, because I've programmed myself so heavily towards work. And that can't be all there is. So I'm, I'm working on that

Yonason Goldson: 5:18

herself right now from jumping up and down, because this is a message dear to her heart. You know, there's so much talk about balance. And it just doesn't seem to be a reality that we can that we can get to. I mean, especially, I mean, you look like somebody who loves what you do. You recognize the need to do other things. It's part of the challenge, isn't it?

Unknown: 5:42

So Randi Zuckerberg, who's a friend, she, you know, maybe people know her name, they certainly know her last name, she is Mark's sister, but she she is a force of her own. And she wrote this wonderful book a number of years ago, and I'll see if I can kind of pull this out of my memory. But what she was arguing was that the phrase you can have it all is, is incorrect in that you can't have it all every single day. Right? So if we're talking about work life balance, she suggested that oh, it's called pick three. And, and her whole thesis was that there are five things in life. And, and you can't have them all every single day. But you can always pick three. And I you know, it's been a while, so we'll see if I can do it. But there was a friend's work, sleep, fitness, and something else, I don't know. So you can go look it up. And here, I'm promoting Randy's book instead of mine. And, and anyway, I really liked that. Because right, the idea is like, it really depends upon the scope at which you look at yourself, not every day can have every thing. But if you can create a nice balance over time, then you are creating a nice balance for yourself. And I do try to think about that. So if I spent a day where I was just really grinding until 11:30pm, and my wife is upset, because she wanted to go to bed much earlier, which again, I completely sympathize with, then, then you know, like, the next day, let's make sure that I go on a hike, or let's make sure that I spend an hour with a friend having lunch and just do something else, you can create a balance, you just have to think about the time horizon what you're doing it?

Margarita Gurri: 7:23

Well, I've been listened to this amazing podcast, you may know, you know, this author, Jason Yes. Heard about from that I was learning how to not only rethink things, but to know that when I think I'm wasting time, or doing fun things, I'm actually in the, in the thick of rethinking. So I'm working but with play. So what play are you going to be doing this week, next week, next month, that's going to help you pretend to have the balance that actually begins to feel like the real balance?

Unknown: 7:55

Right? Right. You know, it's so it's, it's funny, my friend, Nicole Lapin who's extremely successful author and television personality, and I were just catching up over lunch last week and talking about how isolated both of us have felt. Because we work a lot, and therefore we don't see people as much as we'd like to. And I said to her, you know, one of the things that I've been doing simple as it is, is reaching out and just like scheduling, like a lunch or something with somebody and putting it on the calendar. And I know that I will be stressed leading up to it, because I'll be saying, Oh, this is I don't have time now for these 10 Other things that all the emails are gonna have to wait. But then I will go and I will devote my time to my friend or to my activity or whatever. And I will feel so much better afterwards. And I feel like what we need to do is if we if we understand how we're programmed, we have to, we have to, we have to counter program, we don't have to counter program ourselves so much as we have to do things, despite our programming, I think is the thing, right? Like, the more in which I know, if I put something on my calendar when I'm feeling calm, and then I stick to it. When I'm feeling stressed, I will know that by the time that I'm done with the thing, I will actually feel calmer. So it's it's something about awareness of how you respond to things and the things that you need and making sure that you're not giving in to your most stressed instincts. But I'll tell you one of the things that I think a lot about, so I do a lot of things. I'm the editor in chief of the National Magazine. In a couple of podcasts, as you mentioned, I do a lot of speaking so I'm traveling a lot. And consulting and television development is a whole bunch of stuff. And people ask me well, I don't have time for all that. And you know the answer is that I believe that time is like a balloon. Which is to say that you never say I will expand this balloon so that I can fit air into it. That's not how a balloon works, or you don't expand a balloon or that fit air into it, what you do is you blow air into it, and then the balloon expands. And I think that the same is true for time. If you sit around and you say, I don't have the time for something, you will never have the time for it. Because the things that you're doing will always take up the amount of time that you have that's that's called Parkinson's Law. work expands to fit the time allotted. And so instead, what I think you need to do is think about, well, you don't, you don't sit around and wonder where you can find the time instead, you commit to the thing. And then that commitment is a forcing function to make you reconsider how you're spending your time and other ways. So maybe you say, you know, now, now I need to do this other thing. And it makes me think that this other project that I'm spending a lot of time on maybe doesn't have a whole lot of value to me. And it's time to not do it. Or it's time to rethink how I'm doing it or it's time to ask for help. Or it's time to hire some help. Or it's time to just rethink my process and find a better way to do things. I really like adding things to my life. Because when I do what it does is force me to be more efficient with everything else. And that ultimately, I think allows me to grow. And then the thing that I need to do is also make sure that I'm stepping back and just taking a breath.

Margarita Gurri: 11:08

And you just spoke beautifully to something that's near and dear to the rabbi's heart, which is the issue of self discipline, so that when you're calm, and at your best, you decide what you think you need. And then if you just honor that calm self, even when you're not in the mood to stop what you're doing. Yeah, and you're doing what you need to do, Rabbi, could you speak to the self discipline, which is a key issue in ethics.

Yonason Goldson: 11:32

Also, I think just it ties right back into where we started, which is the willingness to challenge our own preconceptions. First, we're talking about our preconceptions about the world. Now we're talking about our preconceptions about ourselves. Yeah. And self discipline means that I can look at myself, objectively, I can evaluate what's really in my own best interest. And you know, we all we're all averse to change all the Guru's tell us get out of your comfort zone. And we don't want to because it's uncomfortable, right? So we can recognize it's good for us. You don't have any, you want to make a fortune. Right? That's right, a diet book. And you've heard all people who say, you know, I've tried all the diet books, and none of them work. Well, they all work if you stick to them. You can't We can't get ourselves to and to your to your point about recreation, my wife, and I just spent three and a half weeks this summer in Israel. And I made the decision going over there that I was going to spend minimal time online. And I did, and the world didn't end.

Unknown: 12:40

Right. Right. And you know, so what's really important, I think about what you just said there is you have the ability to do that, because you have agency. Yeah, I think that drives me crazy, is the narrative that the baby like, you know, we're so attached to our email or whatever that we have, we've simply lost control of it, people will talk a lot about addiction and, you know, addiction to technology, addiction to social media, whatever. And my friend near a all a great writer, makes this wonderful point that the more we talk about that the more we create a kind of idea of learned helplessness that we we don't have control over things, right, we pathologize the way in which we relate to our tasks. You know, again, the word addiction is a it's a pathological term. And, you know, there's a big, big difference between an actual pathological addiction and simply overuse. And if you recognize something as overuse, well, then you can say, okay, it's overused, that's a bad habit that I've developed. And I actually have the power to change that happen. You know, it's not easy, and it's going to require work, and maybe some great advice from others, but I can do it, which is different from an addiction where you, you need someone else's help. And, and so I like to keep that in mind as I as I identify my own bad habits, because certainly I you know, I am guilty of overuse, in many ways. I mean, you know, literally just before this podcast, I like, I realized that my computer charger was downstairs, but I was going to record upstairs. So I started to walk downstairs, and then I paused and realized I wasn't carrying my phone and I turned back around, grabbed my phone, and then walked with my phone downstairs so that I could like check email for the three seconds that it took to walk down the stairs. Now that's kind of ridiculous. That's an overuse. Right? And, and I should be able to recognize that and change it and I can. And so I think it's important to for us all to remember that we have an agency over the decisions that we make and the habits that we build, and it's always worth reflecting upon how we can do better. Well, you

Margarita Gurri: 14:46

gave them an interesting way of looking at use of time that I think is marvelous. They should have vertical thinking of stacking in mind addressing that because I thought that was a great way of starting and continuing the journey. Yeah, so

Unknown: 15:03

So those are those two terms are, they're kind of related but a little different. So I'll break them up. So stacking is something that actually I picked up from Bethany Frankel, Real Housewives of New York, creator of the skinny girl brand, where she talked about how she was telling me that, that she wants to always make sure that she is doing like projects together, so that she can save the time or whatever it takes to prepare mentally or physically for those projects. So for example, Bethany likes to work from home, and she likes to work in her pajamas, what she doesn't want to do is spend tons of time doing her hair and makeup and getting and getting dressed for things, which she does have to do, of course, for business and media and so on. And so one of the things she she does is whenever she has obligations that require her to get dressed up and put on, put do hair and makeup, she will stack them all together and make sure that they're all in one clump. And therefore she only has to do the hair and makeup once instead of maybe trying to do you know, doing doing it every day for one thing. And you know, that may, that's her specific problem. But you can see how that could apply to your own thing, right? Like even even this right now to talk to you guys. I had to set up a whole bunch of things, I just set up this high definition camera and this light and the microphone and whatever. And so I like to do this when I when I've put together a number of podcasts in a row, because it's efficient from a from a perspective of just making sure that everything's set up. But also, frankly, it's efficient from a mental standpoint, because I get into the mindset of talking about this kind of stuff and being animated in this way. And it's it's much easier for me to get into this mode, and then do it for a while than to get into this mode for 20 minutes and then drop out of it and then have to reboot an hour later. So I want to be efficient with my time. Now the other thing that you'd mentioned was vertical thinking so so. So this is something that I had recognized, out of out of actually the last time that I released a book so so this book that I'm releasing now is very much about all these things that we're talking about, it's really about how to how to build yourself and navigate moments of change so that you can, you can have, you know, thrive going forward. But my previous book many years ago, was actually a romantic comedy that I wrote with my wife, it had nothing to do with work at all. And it's got these very, very interesting reactions, which was when writer friends heard that we were, we'd sold this book, and it was he was coming out on a major publisher. They said, Congratulations, that's awesome. And entrepreneurs when they heard that I had sold this romantic comedy, and it was coming out in a major press. They said, Well, that's interesting, what are you going to do with it. And what I realized was entrepreneurs think differently than I think most other people including how I used to think myself, because I come from media. So as a media person, I was a horizontal thinker, which is to say I would work on something, I'd put it out in the world, I would move along, I'd work on something, I'd put it out in the world, I'd move along, I'd work right I was I was kind of laying bricks horizontally. entrepreneurs think vertically, they only do something because it is the foundation upon which the next thing will be built. And in doing so they save themselves the the trouble of restarting every single time of making a case for themselves of having to learn a whole new set of things simply to take the first step. So what I realized was, I needed to be more of a vertical thinker, I needed to make sure that the things that I was doing, were being selected so that they drove future growth. Rather than that they were something that I did and then got to had to start all over again. And this I think is its own kind of time savings. Because what we're really doing is we're setting ourselves up so that we can use ourselves and our experiences as efficiently as possible. If everything that we do, can lead to something else. Indirectly is fine. Right. But the more that we think vertically, I think the more that we can grow and, and really have a purpose for everything that we do.

Yonason Goldson: 19:15

They say always start with the end in mind sounds like it's consistent with what you're saying. Are there times when we may not know what the end is? Sure, we need to experiment and then can we still find a way of applying this principle in that situation?

Unknown: 19:32

Yeah, it's absolutely and I actually, you know, I think that start with the end of mind is a perfectly fine way of thinking about things but I also really believe that a lot of what we do can and should be experiments where we don't exactly know what the ROI is because the value of the value of trying things in learning new things is that we we don't have to know it. Look little bit, let me let me, let me think of it a different way. If you only try something new, because you have a very specific goal in mind of where you need to go and how this new thing is going to get you there. That may work to some degree, but what it will, what it will definitely also do is limit your opportunities, because you won't be open to learning and developing new ideas, new skills that you don't know exactly where they're going to lead you. I talked to, I don't I don't mean to do these kinds of things to be named Droppy. But it's just I talked to lots of smart people, and I love sharing the things that they've told me. So anyway, I was talking to Malcolm Gladwell, a best selling author and podcaster. And, and he told me, we were talking about how he decides what projects to pursue. And he said, to the best of his ability, it's not possible to do this entirely. But to the best of his ability, he tries never to think of something as a Malcolm Gladwell project or not a Malcolm Gladwell project. And the reason for that he said, these were his words, because self conceptions are powerfully limiting. That the more that we define ourselves in a really narrow way, the more we will also turn down all these other opportunities to learn and grow. And so I do think that there's a lot of value in having a sense of direction, right, I always throughout my career have felt like what I need to do is have a plan, and then have a willingness to abandon the plan. And because the plan is just you got to move somewhere. You gotta go. Right, you have to feel like you're going somewhere. But but if you if you are so narrowly focused on that plan, you may miss all the amazing off ramps that are actually a lot better.

Margarita Gurri: 21:41

I think a lot of people get into the problem that Malcolm has not gotten into it. He said, Well, this isn't me, it's not on brand. Well, our brands are always expanding. Yeah, we lose the ability to be really interesting and curious, and, and follow things along. Yeah. But what you had a thought earlier about, about growth.

Yonason Goldson: 22:08

dumped him? I'm sorry. I?

Margarita Gurri: 22:10

Oh, well, we were talking. We were talking earlier about some of the problems people have with, with how they think moving forward. And you've had you had all sorts of ideas about how we rethink things and being true to ourselves and changing as we go and all that?

Yonason Goldson: 22:28

No, I think it's been integral to our conversation that, too. And I talked about this all the time that in, in Jewish tradition, there were two schools of Jewish learning. And they fought with each other the history says, like, if they had struck swords and spears, but they were always receptive. To the other point of view, which is so different from what we see today in cable news, or in political debates, you call them debates, it's just people shouting at each other. The the willingness to stop, listen, entertain the possibility that somebody else has something to say. And then occasionally, to have the humility, or the intellectual integrity, that say, okay, maybe I need to reformulate my, my previous laws,

Unknown: 23:25

you know, what that reminds me of is, I very in my work, I very, very intentionally and consciously avoid the subjects that make people run to their corners. You know, I think what you're describing on on cable news is a world in which people are not supposed to find common ground, like the entire point of it is to basically signal to your camp, which camp you're in, and what that camp stands for. And so if, when you're out in the world, if you start to talk to people in the terms in which they have already defined which side they're on, they will hold to it. But I have found that by, for example, telling stories about why the teddy bear was considered scandalous, or why coffee was banned for 500 years. Because those are not areas in which anyone is going to get triggered to to go back to their, their, you know, their base. What I find is that people then find the deeper and the deeper meaning that I've tried to embed in these things, which is to be open to new ideas to be less resistant to change. And, and they email me and they tell me that the show or my writing has changed the way they think it's my it's my favorite phrases when people tell me that And I think that that was made possible, by me avoiding any of the kinds of things where people feel like they already know how they're supposed to think about something if you can, if you can, I do think that people still have the ability to evolve the way that they think on things, it's just you have to come to them in a space in which they feel like they can define that for themselves.

Margarita Gurri: 25:23

And I love that your stories are so playful, and it invites creativity. Thank you,

Yonason Goldson: 25:29

Rob, I'm sorry, to say we love what you're doing. Because the hope is if we can get people to think differently about teddy bears, maybe some of that will start to spill over into the public arena, and we start solving some of our problems instead of just beating each other over the head.

Margarita Gurri: 25:48

Right, we're, we're at the end of our time, we're mindful of your particular timeframe, what is the final takeaway that you want to share with our listeners?

Unknown: 25:58

You know, I have been so interested in watching people over the last number of years through the pandemic, and seeing how many of them have redefined themselves, their lives, their work, and really fascinating ways. I mean, obviously, it has been a terrible time for many but but it has also been a time of reinvention and growth. And and the best explanation I have for why people reach what I like to call the wouldn't go back moment my book builds for tomorrow is really based around the idea of the wouldn't go back moment is, is that people reconsidered the impossible, I think goes back to a lot of what we talked about today, people are forced outside of the boundaries that they had built for themselves, where they said, The Good ideas are in here, and the bad ideas are out there. And, and when a moment of change or crisis or anything happens, what it ultimately does is it forces us to step outside of those boundaries, because the things that we've limited ourselves to no longer works. And so we have to reconsider the impossible, we have to say, you know, these things that we discarded, maybe those are actually good ideas, or they're at least good starting points or places of inspiration. And the thing I want to leave people with is the recognition that you don't have to wait for a moment of crisis in order to do that you can reconsider the impossible at any time. And and I think that it's always worth us all stepping back and saying and thinking, you know, what did I leave out? What did I miss? What did I discard that shouldn't have been discarded? Because maybe that's our greatest opportunity.

Margarita Gurri: 27:32

I think that's incredibly well said.

Yonason Goldson: 27:34

That's really what the ethical mindset is all about. Willingness to look at things from different points of view, and entertain possibilities. Because if we do we really don't know what's possible. Yeah.

Margarita Gurri: 27:47

And to be able to do that with curiosity and kindness, without having to cancel people out or, or be unkind. Right. So where can people find you? I know that we both the rabbit and I both have fallen in love with your podcast. So you tell us in your own way, how can people find you best?

Unknown: 28:04

Yes, I will. I'll give you three ways. Also, I don't know if this is getting picked up on the mic. But I apologize if there's like a low hum in the background that is a lawn mower. Because as I have learned, you know, being in the suburbs of Colorado, usually I'm in the city, which has its own noises in the suburbs of Colorado or the suburbs anywhere probably like there's a lawnmower going off all the time. Like I didn't realize the suburbs was so loud with lawn mowers. So anyway, sorry, sorry if you can hear that. So three ways to find me number one, if you're if you're listening to this podcast, and you know how to find podcasts, and if you just search build for tomorrow, you'll find mine. And you know, I hope you take a listen number two, the book, also called builds for tomorrow, making it as easy as possible for you, you can find that wherever you find books. So just think of a place that sells books. And that's a good place. If for some reason, you cannot think of a place that sells books, then, which would I know Paul, both of you seeing as there's just like piles of books behind both of you, then then Jason pfeiffer.com/book is a good place to go. Jason pfeiffer.com/book. And then just more generally, Jason pfeiffer.com is where you can find more information on me get in touch, you know, find out all my social accounts and so on. And, you know, I rabbi, as you know, I I'm very responsive, people reach out if they have a question or a comment, I get back to them, so feel free to reach out.

Margarita Gurri: 29:24

Well, thank you sir. We're delighted that you joined us on the rabbi in the shrink and I know that you've given a lot of people a lot to think about, and some wonderful and fun tools I think to rethink their lives.

Unknown: 29:36

Well, thank you so much, and ethics. I appreciate it. Guys. This is so fun.

Margarita Gurri: 29:40

Well, thank you. Y'all be well. We'll see you on another episode of The rabbi.

Unknown: 29:46

Thank you for listening to the rabbi and the shrink every day ethics unscripted to book Dr. Red Shoe, Dr. Margarita, Guri, or Rabbi Jonas and Goldson as speakers for advisors for your organization. contact them at the rabbi and the shrink.com This has been a doctor Red Shoe production