How does the story we tell ourselves determine who we become?
How do we determine which values are authentic and which are misdirected?
How do we find the courage to reject fear-based decision-making?
These and other fascinating topics are addressed when executive coach and anxiogenics expert Mary Kutheis joins The Rabbi and the Shrink.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/marykutheis/
http://www.mckcoaching.com/
What choice can I make or action can I take in this moment to create the greatest possible value?
Can we change neuropathways to steer ourselves on a more successful course?
Why do we choose to repeat the same mistakes over and over again?
The sooner we recognize and correct unhealthy thinking patterns the more quickly we can reduce anxiety and discover solutions.
Knowing our fears and our triggers empowers us to change our behavior.
What appears to be failure is often success.
If we can't lead ourselves, how can we successfully lead other people?
Word of the Day: macadamize
To pave by laying and compacting successive layers of broken stone, often with asphalt or hot tar. Broken pieces can be repurposed to build and progress; success emerges out of failure.
"What's the best mistake that happened today?"
How snowplow parents do their children a disservice by denying them the benefit of learning from failure.
The difference between flipflopping and principled change of outlook.
Ponder fearlessly and don't be afraid of silence.
How does the story we tell ourselves determine who we become?
How do we determine which values are authentic and which are misdirected?
How do we find the courage to reject fear-based decision-making?
These and other fascinating topics are addressed when executive coach and anxiogenics expert Mary Kutheis joins The Rabbi and the Shrink.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/marykutheis/
http://www.mckcoaching.com/
What choice can I make or action can I take in this moment to create the greatest possible value?
Can we change neuropathways to steer ourselves on a more successful course?
Why do we choose to repeat the same mistakes over and over again?
The sooner we recognize and correct unhealthy thinking patterns the more quickly we can reduce anxiety and discover solutions.
Knowing our fears and our triggers empowers us to change our behavior.
What appears to be failure is often success.
If we can't lead ourselves, how can we successfully lead other people?
Word of the Day: macadamize
To pave by laying and compacting successive layers of broken stone, often with asphalt or hot tar. Broken pieces can be repurposed to build and progress; success emerges out of failure.
"What's the best mistake that happened today?"
How snowplow parents do their children a disservice by denying them the benefit of learning from failure.
The difference between flipflopping and principled change of outlook.
Ponder fearlessly and don't be afraid of silence.
Welcome to The Rabbi and The Shrink. This is Dr. Margarita Guri, the shrink. And here's my favorite rabbi.
Yonason Goldson:Yonason Goldson.
Margarita Gurri:Well the good rabbi and I have with us, Mary Kutheis. Welcome, Mary.
Mary Kutheis:Thank you for having me. I'm here.
Margarita Gurri:We're delighted Actually, today we're talking about linking thinking to long term success. And I know you on the rabbi's grappling with a great podcast. And he said how excited you were about when he asked about x eugenics? So I thought, why don't we start there? And then I'll brag a little about you. So tell us why are you so excited about x oragenics? Well,
Mary Kutheis:most people haven't heard of the term x eugenics, it's fairly new. And what it is, is the axiology is the science of value. And neuroscience, as we know, is a study of the brain. So when you bring the science of value and the study of the brain together, you get access to eugenics. And essentially, what it is, is how we think. So how we think is at the root of everything we do. I mean, if you put that practically think about something that you do, that doesn't start in your brain doesn't start with thinking unconsciously or consciously or subconsciously, it's all there. So when we can have more understanding about how we think, and we can be more proactive about thinking in ways that are helpful, we can change all sorts of results, not only for ourselves, but for our community and the world at large.
Yonason Goldson:There's a story I heard, I remember where I heard his on Tom, Bill us podcast, I remember who was telling it is talking about about someone who was became a very, very successful publisher. And he had been an unsuccessful high school student, and figured he may not even graduate, it was going to find some menial job. And he got his SATs score back. And he got in the 1300s 1400s. That, wow, I never did well on anything before. Maybe I'm not as dumb as I think I am. And he started working a little bit. And he finished high school strong, went to college did well became extremely successful in business. And I think it was like 10, or 15 years later, he got a letter from the sap board. And it said, we're letting you know, there was an error in the results. And this is your real score. And it was like in the nine hundreds. Wow. And, you know, he just looked back on this, he thought, because I thought I was smart. I started acting smart. And I became successful. And if he would have gotten his regular scores back, he would have just confirmed his belief that he was never going to go anywhere in life. And we never would We wouldn't be telling this story right now. But it just I think it speaks to the essence of of your, how you just summed up Axia Genex. This, this intersection between the story we tell ourselves and who we actually become.
Mary Kutheis:Yeah, it's so fascinating when you think about I mean, most people who have studied any kind of parenting know, it's terrible to tell your child you're not a good reader or all those terrible things. Because the more we tell them, that kind of thing, the more they will absorb it and believe that. And the same thing. When they do well. Not saying you're so smart. But you put in such effort, and it really paid off for you. And then they learned that it's effort, not just natural smarts that got them where they are.
Margarita Gurri:Absolutely. And there's several studies about that. They tell half the people in a room, that they're really smart. And then they give him a bunch of hard problems to solve. And then they the other half, they tell them you guys are super hard working. And you're I know you'll persevere. Well, in the end, the smart kids ended up cheating or quitting because they thought when they couldn't get it that they weren't smart. And the kids who were told that effort was more important. Keep at it, and so of course they did better. So I think that's important. How did you get into all this? I mean, what were you doing before? I know you're you're a coach of lots of coaching certificates, professional executive exogenic foundational team coaching. How did you get to this exogenic part of your life? Well,
Mary Kutheis:I started my business 22 years ago, I was disenchanted with corporate America. And so you'll say No, I know, I know, we were in the process of adopting our son. And I thought, boy, I can't, I can't go back into a job that I really do not enjoy, and put our son that we work so hard to get in daycare, and so on. So my husband said, well quit and figure something else out. So it's kind of morphed over the years. But I had been fascinated since really, since I was a little kid, about how we think, how we behave. How we, as humans, communicate and interact. And so it's really all built on itself as this has gone along. And then I have actually been using this, the hierarchy of value is the assessment. And I've been using it with something else. But it was very dense, very sciency. And when I came across Peter Demarest and his work, and I thought, Oh, my goodness, here's this assessment that I think is so, so brilliant. But what comes out of it is something that the average person can use, that's when I got really excited about it, because you can take this, it's a fairly dense axiology is a fairly dense science. But the outcome of it understanding our thinking from both self perspectives and world perspectives, it just can create such enormous shifts for us, and it's the power behind it is amazing. And, and even, we, you've probably heard of how important emotional intelligence is. And I completely agree. And as a precursor to that, I mean, because we can change our EQ if we work on it. But if we can change our Learn to change our thinking, it's going to make any other self or professional development that we do better, because at the root of any change we're trying to make is how we think.
Margarita Gurri:Which brings us back to ethics rabbi,
Yonason Goldson:yeah. And it really got me thinking, it's a continuous form of thought, for me that I come from a very sort of structured, theological orientation. So for me values are taught they're handed down. When you talk to people who don't have that religious background, or religious foundation orientation, that values can become a much more complicated conversation, do you have a way of approaching the concept of what are whether we call them authentic values are universal values or healthy values? What happens if somebody says, Well, my values are XY and Z, and most of us wouldn't actually think of those as appropriate values.
Mary Kutheis:I think we're seeing a lot of it more publicly these days than we, that at least I have in my lifetime. When we value money, or when we value power, or when we value, prestige, all those kinds of things. Those are legitimate values, I suppose. And yet, they can also be separators, if you will, if someone may value money above all else, but that's going to impact how other people interact with them, and probably narrow the circle to people who find that to be a an acceptable value.
Yonason Goldson:When you're associated with people whose values may not be ultimately healthy. So now you got the compounded problem of my community is not supporting me and one out the way either.
Mary Kutheis:Yeah. And when they see that old thing, spend your time around the five people, you become the five people that you spend your time around. So be very careful. choose very carefully. And yeah, I think when we when we are in alignment, with our core values, were in a good place. When we are out of alignment, it's very difficult for us. And just because we have a value doesn't mean we're always in alignment with it. But we try.
Margarita Gurri:Yeah, we do. And I think one of the things that the rabbi and I have seen that as people have more confidence and more emotional intelligence, they're more likely to abandon a fear based philosophy of I need more power, so I value power. I need to have all these plastic surgeries because I I value looking good, because that's the best I've got or, you know, things like that. And we're noticing how. And we're trying to contaminate the world with values based discussions, where people have the courage to explore ideas and thoughts that are different from what they thought they had are different from other people.
Mary Kutheis:I've written some about how, in terms of leadership, what always gets in the way of being a good leader is one or more of the following power, insecurity and greed. And insecurity is remarkably at the root of a lot. Because an insecure person seeks the power and the money to build up something that they don't have inside.
Yonason Goldson:You know, that that insecurity also leads to more extreme outlooks on life, because those tend to be more simplistic. And if I haven't reason to my way, to a solid outlook, that, by necessity, acknowledges the complexities and the gray areas and the paradoxes and contradictions that I'm, I'm secure with the understanding that life is complicated, then I'm going to retreat into these more simplistic worldviews and associated with people who are similar like simplistic in their views, and now we have groupthink. And we have tribalism. And we have this sort of political mess that we, we read so much about in the headlines.
Margarita Gurri:And it's, it's frightening. If, if you could save the world with a question or something for people to ponder, what would it be? How can you because I know you talk about little, little minute or minute shifts you were talking about this wonderful play on were very clever. What would be the question that you would have people ponder to inspire that shift?
Mary Kutheis:I'm so glad you asked that. Well, me too. As part of X eugenics, there is the central question. And it is at the core of how we choose to move forward at any time. And it is this what choice can I make? And action? Can I take in this moment, to create the greatest net value?
Margarita Gurri:Could you say that, again, that was profound?
Mary Kutheis:I can, what choice can I make, and action can I take in this moment, to create the greatest net value. And a couple of the important things in there is that we don't give value and we don't get value, we create value, we have the ability to create value. And net value doesn't necessarily mean everyone will be happy for it, if someone is failing terribly at their job, and you've tried and tried and try to work them through that, but ultimately, it's going to be better for the company and the team and the client that they work with. And and even maybe the person that's being let go, I would
Margarita Gurri:say especially the person being like go, it should be exciting and scary. But if we don't belong somewhere, that means somewhere else needs us or we belong. Yeah.
Mary Kutheis:The even in the moment, if they don't, they might not think oh, this is great for me. But ultimately, the net value is better for them because they find a place where they do fit where they can thrive. And so it's looking at all of those different aspects of any situation where what is not just not what's the best for me. And it also not completely negating oneself and say what's best for everybody else that I shouldn't, nothing matters about me. It's it's looking at all the pieces, and how can we create the greatest net value?
Yonason Goldson:Message, isn't it?
Margarita Gurri:I'm sorry, Rob, I
Yonason Goldson:think it's an empowering message. I don't know, I don't feel that I am a victim of circumstance. I don't feel that I really have to just go along with whatever my circumstances are. But rather I become the one who defines the environment I live in and I take responsibility for the change that I can make in the world. And if we, you know, if more of us feel that way. Then we're going to be looking for partners collaborators, opportunities to take advantage of and society is going to benefit as a Hallward benefits individuals No.
Margarita Gurri:And we have to create systems to follow that up. Because I think sometimes people say, Okay, I've, I've thought about my values. I've picked my five people. I'm just gonna coast. And the problem with coasting is the rabbi and I, you know, and you know, very, is that there's ethical fading. And we have to rethink things, constantly asking the question again, what's the right thing to do? What fits? So what are you doing it help people refresh this commitment to the institute? Genex?
Mary Kutheis:Well, it's a little bit of a, it's a little bit of a conundrum in this moment, because it's, it's new. In the 90s, emotional intelligence was new, not very many people had heard of EQ. And now, lots of lots and lots of people have, it's a very common thing. Well, the queue is kind of in the 90s EQ stage, where people are just not as they're not aware of it at all. And then understanding how it applies to one's own development is a little bit of a challenge to I think there's only there's less than 30 of us that are currently certified in the assessment and the training and that kind of thing. So we're working hard to grow it. And, and the idea that it's putting the power in the hands of the people to utilize their best ways of thinking. So hopefully, people find that intriguing. And think it's not about motivational posters, or affirmations. It's really about understanding how you think, shifting away from less helpful ways. And using our more helpful ways of thinking which we do naturally we do habitually, we're just not aware of
Margarita Gurri:it. So tell us about the brain. Because we're talking about, you know, the science and the study of the brain as well. What is it we need to remember about the brain a for going to move forward in the most productive way?
Mary Kutheis:That's a really scary question, because I have a limited knowledge. However, I think the thing that I can I mean about scientifically about the brain. But I think the one thing that is exciting is the plasticity of the brain, that for a long time, people thought that the way it is is the way it is. But what we know now is that we can change neural pathways to ones that are more helpful in in programs, I'll put a picture of a rutted road on the screen. And if you were to be driving your truck down that rutted road in the middle of the field, and you let go of the wheel, you'd stay right where are those ruts are, the wheels would just keep going. If you wanted to drive somewhere else down that road, you need to steer yourself out of the ruts. And you need to hold the wheel there. Ultimately, you will make a new path going a different direction, but it takes some time. And it takes some consistency. And so it's the same way with our brains. We've if we've done things the same way for 20 3040 5060 years, we've got some pretty deep pathways in our brain, we can shift them, but it doesn't happen in 21 days. It doesn't happen in 30 days. It's there's there's not science to back those 21 days to a new habit things up. Yeah. So we can change if we want to, and if we're willing to be put the consistent effort and I think that's exciting.
Margarita Gurri:What are some steps we can take to change?
Mary Kutheis:The first is being aware of our thinking, have you ever been in one of those situations where I like to call it being wrapped around the spoke of something unhelpful? It's just you know, maybe you said something or you did something or you forgot something, and you just can't you think about it every day a little bit? Or just you realize you've been thinking about it a lot for a week or a month? Well, if we can think realize that we're thinking in that pattern, that unhelpful patterns sooner and and proactively shift our way out of it. Think about how much stress we'd save. But the problem is our brain kind of goes on its path like it's like it's got a mind of its own. And and all of a sudden we realize we've been worried about some thing for a week, that that hasn't changed anything, the worry, or the regret or the whatever. If we didn't catch it in the first hour and say, let me shift this to a more helpful way of thinking so that it will be useful. And I'll be creating value instead of just eating away at my brain for a
Yonason Goldson:week. So what are some
Margarita Gurri:other steps, then
Mary Kutheis:the understanding what triggers a person, knowing what your triggers are knowing whether situations or the way people talk to you, or occasions, have stage fright, or going to a party, or all the different kinds of things that can trigger our unhelpful ways of thinking. Because if we, if we know what a trigger is, and then we're aware, when we're approaching a trigger, we can be even more proactive about shifting our thinking. The idea, in fact, it's one of the ideas behind meditation is simply to be aware of our thinking.
Yonason Goldson:I learned
Mary Kutheis:several years ago, we people get frustrated about meditation, because it's like, oh, I can't clear my mind, I can't clear my mind. Well, one of the things about it, is, it's not really about clearing your mind, or what I learned, and you probably already know, was when you are focusing on your breathing, and then you realize, oh, I'm not focusing on my breathing anymore. You're successfully meditating. Because what you're trying to do is being aware of your thoughts. And to not let them run away. So if you are meditating for five minutes, and 30 times in that five minutes, you realize you have veered away from focusing on your breath, you have six, you're successfully meditating, because you're practicing to be aware of your thoughts for longer and longer periods of time.
Yonason Goldson:That's a really interesting point is, you know, I heard Daniel Goleman speaking about this in a lecture. And it was it was a tremendous insight for me. And it's something that really has many ramifications, that what appears to be failure is often success. And until the approach meditation with that idea, we know that our thoughts are going to drift. And the whole idea is to catch them as they drift, and then bring, bring our focus back. And you mentioned a couple of things that challenge some of the conventional wisdom that's become very popular that 2021 day, rewiring your brain model. And, and you also talked about about aphorisms, or some have been calling the visualizations. And I've heard a number of people saying that that changed their lives, when they started the affirmations. Is there a place for that? In your model?
Mary Kutheis:Yeah, so absolutely. I think, honestly, I think it's whatever works for someone. I mean, there's a I mean, I, when I was when I was writing my book on time, I think I went out there and there was, I don't know, some crazy million number of books on time management. And the reason that they're out there is because they worked for at least the person who wrote it for me, but there is no one right answer for anything really. People will differ on on just about everything. And if the affirmation worked great. That is, that's all that matters. The problem that I had with the 21 day and I talked about this a lot is because people beat themselves up because they can't succeed it that I did it for 21 days. And on the 22nd day, I completely forgot. And now I mean, I guess I'm a failure because it didn't work for me. Well, it doesn't work for anybody. I figured out where it came from, by accident where that whole myth started. And it was never meant to be that you could create a new behavioral, new behavior in 21 days that would stick without thinking about it. Because that new habit habit,
Margarita Gurri:right, was about habit development. Yeah. I think it's funny that any of us would think that one thing would work for everyone. Yeah, yeah, exactly. We don't all agree on whether salt is good or not. You know, we can agree on. You know, that Latin music is the best route rabbi. I mean, really. We can't even agree on that. Hit the
Yonason Goldson:play button dark. You're on.
Margarita Gurri:It's interesting. Well, it's exciting what you're doing. I think that leadership is a great time for folks to understand how much they impact others. And so let's discuss this. So I am a leader. And I'm in the audience. And I'm wanting to take the the assessment, right that you talked about Peter Donruss assessment that I see his name, right.
Mary Kutheis:Yeah. Peter. Peter. Well, there's there's three people Peter Demarest Harvey Show. And, and Tracy duez, who created this particular. I mean, Robert Hartman created the assessment, but this report that comes out of it was created by those
Margarita Gurri:guys. So if I want to take the assessment, what do I get back in this report? And then how does that impact me as a leader?
Mary Kutheis:Well, what comes back in the report is we have 36, different perspectives. And there are 18 worldview, and 18 self view. So in the full report, you find out where you land on these 36 different perspectives. And with that information, there are biases, which is the unhelpful ways of thinking or liabilities, and then there are assets. And so what you learn is, what your biases are, we use biases and liabilities is synonymous, you learn what those are, and then through some self reflection, you learn what triggers those ways of thinking. And and then you become more aware of your assets. Because both your biases in your assets are habitual, we think that we without even knowing we're thinking that way. So if we can proactively say, oh, here I am with a bias not this isn't good. Asking yourself the central question, what choice? Can I make an action? Can I take Well, in this moment, I can shift to this asset. That is a much more helpful way to approach this than the way I was. And so that I mean, that's key that's foundational to the training. And it's called self leadership. Because we've all run into ineffective leaders out there. And one of the challenges is that if we can't lead ourselves, how can we effectively lead other people? It happens, but we'd be so much better if we understood ourselves before we start trying to lead others.
Margarita Gurri:There doesn't seem to be a requirement for many people in leadership positions. Sadly, I I vote that they all take this assessment and yeah, be invited to ponder thoughtfully, that would be good. Well, Robert, we've been talking about some lovely things. I'm thinking it's time for the word of the day. Or the
Yonason Goldson:day I'm actually debating between two but I think I'm going to choose mechem and dies.
Margarita Gurri:I don't know that one. Oh,
Yonason Goldson:I don't think I pronounced it right. Maybe
Margarita Gurri:that's okay. I wouldn't know. If we don't know is it wrong? I mean, really magical interesting. The
Yonason Goldson:word is epistemology then we can get into that. mathematize No, we may have to edit this out. No, I gotta write maca. Maca. macadam lives. There we go. All right, we'll get there sooner or later. Well, what the heck is has nothing to deal with with Hawaiian nuts?
Margarita Gurri:Well, what a shame because I knew that's the fork I knew.
Yonason Goldson:It means to pave by laying and compacting successive layers of broken stone. Oh, you guessed I was going to talk about this. Not at all. Thank you. But it occurred to me Mary because you use the example of the of the rutted road. And and the two kinds of roads one one kind of road will steer us where we want to go without us doing much work. But if we want to change course, it's going to be very difficult. And we also talked about how apparent failure is often success or that puts us on the path to success. So the idea of taking broken stones, which are generally thought of as rubble or waste or something that has no use, finding a way to repurpose those, and to put them in a context where now They become something that is beneficial. Just because we see that situations around us are broken. Maybe we feel we're broken at times, because we haven't succeeded. But out of that failure, and I often quote Winston Churchill that the definition of success is going from failure to failure with no loss of enthusiasm, to take those broken pieces and put them together, we can often create something that is going to lead us forward in ways that may ultimately be more beneficial. And had things gone smoothly for us in the beginning. Yeah,
Mary Kutheis:the, the challenging way is always going to be more educational. Especially if you're going to help other people come along that path behind you. If it was easy, then there won't be any understanding of the challenges that other people face.
Yonason Goldson:You know, they often say that the best coaches were the were more mediocre players. Because the natural athletes don't really know how to teach other people to be successful. Yeah, went out there and did it. Yeah, who really struggled. They're the ones who learned the process and can now use that to teach others.
Margarita Gurri:failures, a good teacher.
Mary Kutheis:And the end the idea of using using the broken rocks, it also kind of goes back to letting nothing go to waste. Everything has a use, everything has a value, if we just look at it properly.
Margarita Gurri:And yet, look at how often speaking of EQ, look at how often people full of shame or blame and hide the mistakes they've made. They distort the failures to be someone else's fault or all their fault. And they don't understand that they're making useful rebel, that and they decide that is not meaningful, so they distort it, then we look good all those athletes or other famous leaders who cheat who distort the facts, who do all sorts of things. Because somehow they're not valuing the rubble of just everyday experience, it's interesting.
Mary Kutheis:kind of goes back to that whole insecurity thing, when we can be vulnerable and admit our shortcomings or the time when we did not live up to our own values. Well, and let's go
Margarita Gurri:beyond that admit to revel in our revel in our value struggles. I think it goes back to shame and blame.
Mary Kutheis:That's a good point.
Margarita Gurri:Let's revel in it. You know, my father used to ask, what's the best mistake you make today? At the dinner table and want to talk about it. My father was a Freudian shrink. I know you could smell it on me. But we'd ask questions like that. So what was the best mistake that President made? Or the whoever was on TV at the moment? What do you think happened with everyone in the world when they saw that mistake? Questions like that, like he would think about the 360 point of view. And I think that's what crushed leaders. Sorry, bad pun, Rabbi. I think crushed leaders often don't look at what was the advantage of my mistake, and how did it impact people positively. So they hide the mistakes or shift the blame to someone else?
Yonason Goldson:You know, I you know, I often look for biblical references, but the first king of Israel was King Saul, and he was not successful. And the sages explained that he had lived kind of a charmed life before he became king. He was tall, he was handsome, he was talented, he people people adored him and revered him. And when he became king, he was untested. And so he didn't have confidence in himself back again to our insecurity. And so he was easily he relied too much on his advisors and his advisors became obsessed with their own power. And they misled him and unfortunately, eventually led him into into failure. He was succeeded by King David. King David had had a very difficult youth. He had struggled, he had not been respected, he had to overcome tremendous obstacles. And when he became king, he was poised to not take the step up to that leadership role. Because he'd come through so much he was confident in his own abilities and so on. You know, we really do like, if we take it into into child racing, the these terminologies that have become popular, the helicopter parent who hovers or the drill sergeant parent who says we're gonna do this and do that, and now they talk about the, the snowplow parent who just wants to push all the obstacles out of the way, we're not doing our children disservice by not letting them fail and learn from their failures. That's what leadership really is. It's, it's empowering others to be the best they can be.
Mary Kutheis:One of the worst things that people seem to think they can call others is a flip flopper changing their opinion, because they decided something one way 10 years ago, and now they think differently. And I think, Boy, what about a person who can say, You know what, I got new information. And now I think differently. I think that's actually a pretty smart thing. And also to be willing to say, I've changed my mind. I think that says a whole lot about a person.
Margarita Gurri:I think so too. And especially if they can say, if you have new experiences or new information, new data, new, whatever, new ponderings that is not just a flip flop, it may look like a flip flop. I love people who are always growing. I think it's very exciting. It's fun to fun to talk about, about the changes, you know, wisdom. Around the time of COVID. Many people were so embarrassed that they couldn't pay their bills and stuff. But many people say hey, I was struggling. And this is what I did. And those are the people who had, I think more authentic leadership. Because we followed those people. They were scared and they admitted it and they move forward. So I think that what you're giving is a model for people to love themselves, and ponder fearlessly.
Mary Kutheis:I love the way I love that how that sounds.
Margarita Gurri:The rabbi and I are big fans of pondering.
Mary Kutheis:I could I could have been a professional ponder. I think can you are actually people who sit around in coffee shops and just chat and talk about things. And I that would have been a great way to live hardware. We started thinking
Yonason Goldson:the same thing.
Margarita Gurri:Well, there you go. Or maybe it was good funding, or maybe a podcast rather. So actually, the rabbi and I were talking about how many of us when we get too busy, stop reading or stop doing wasting time activities. And that is actually the time when we're pondering fearlessly. I mean, we meander, we have ideas, and when people are fed up with what they're doing, so what would you do? Without any, any limits? What would you rather be doing? What do you know? Ask people the big question without limits. And I think that's kind of fun. Well, speaking of limits, are we've coming to a certain time? So Eric, what, what would be some words of wisdom that you would share with all the listeners?
Mary Kutheis:It's gonna be repeating myself a little bit, but that central question when you when you know it, and before I committed it to memory, I had it on sticky notes everywhere. It is, it's astounding how often it is useful in big ways and small.
Margarita Gurri:So what is it again? What is the central question?
Mary Kutheis:Again, central question is, what choice? Can I make an action? Can I take in this moment, to create the greatest net value? I mean, it can be, am I going to say that thing? Or am I not gonna say that thing? Am I going to do this chore or not do that chore? Am I gonna get involved in this association or not? I mean, it's, it's, it's just a way to purposefully think about the choices that we're making. And we have lots of them. And I think it's very empowering. And it also takes back our, our control is strong our freewill, I suppose. You know, it's just we can decide what we're going to do.
Margarita Gurri:Having a thought does not compel us to action. There's a concept. Yeah. How
Mary Kutheis:about that? Yeah.
Yonason Goldson:That doesn't make us an authentic either. No, correct.
Margarita Gurri:So what is the next what is it you're doing for fun these days? What are you looking forward to doing? Well,
Mary Kutheis:this might just be as boring as can be, but I love my work so much. It took me a very long time. I mean, I'm 61 now and it took me a long time to get to the place where I No, I'm doing exactly what I was put here to do. So congratulations. Thank you. So when I, when I get to work with with clients, when I get to have conversations like this, I'm just as happy as can be. Aside from that, lovelies, I love my dogs spending time and I started a couple of hobbies because I've never been artistic. And so I've started to learn calligraphy. And I'm doing this thing called Zentangle.
Margarita Gurri:I don't know what that is, let's pretend I don't understand it. What is
Mary Kutheis:it? Zentangle is essentially this sport. It's it's artistic meditation, where you make designs on a four inch square of paper, and there's no way to do it wrong. And so, and you do it in ink, there is no but there are no mistakes. But it's it's kind of a way to just immerse yourself in the little piece of work that you're doing. And know that there is no, you're not drawing specific pictures that are supposed to look like anything, it's designs. And so for someone who is fearful of making terrible art, it's a wonderful art form.
Margarita Gurri:And the eyes are open. Pardon? The eyes are open when you're doing Zentangle.
Mary Kutheis:Oh, yeah, yeah, it's literally you're using these little Micron pens. And you draw I mean, you just draw designs. And there's, you know, there's a method behind it. There's actually a weighted, maybe even Certified Zentangle Teacher, but it's just a very meditative way to do art. And for some, again, for someone who, oh, I'm not artistic, I can write, but I've never been, like visually artistic and it, it kind of opens it up and says, Well, yeah, I can be,
Margarita Gurri:well, how fun for you that you're branching out and doing these cool things. That's really neat.
Yonason Goldson:Yeah, that's me about athletes, friends, baseball players. Many of them play golf. And they do it specifically because golf uses different muscles, and different coordination than baseball. And so why should they be doing something like that, because you have to develop the whole person. And so we always say play to your strengths, do the things you're good at. And that may be true most of the time. But to not completely neglect those other parts of ourselves. Because we need, we need all of our brains, we all have our bodies, we need to be integrated and holistic in what we do and giving ourselves outlets. That may seem a little frivolous, may in fact, be something that's serving us much more later in the work that is our most meaningful work. Rather,
Margarita Gurri:what is your creative outlet these days?
Yonason Goldson:My creative outlet? That's a good question. I should work on that.
Margarita Gurri:You can ponder I'll do that. Yeah, I know you've been working awfully hard. It's funny when we're on a on a path. Sometimes we get so involved in it that and maybe that's okay to do it that you just focus on something for a while. I don't think I don't think we have to balance every moment. Nor every week. I think it's okay to dive into stuff. And then take a break. I really don't think we have to have you know, total balance all the time.
Yonason Goldson:Yeah, I think for me, it's really exercise. I work out five or six days a week. And I can't miss it. It's it's so important to my health, not my physical health. I mean that too, but my mental health to be able to have that time when I'm just by my side, I go downstairs in my basement I have some rudimentary equipment and just to have that time by myself focusing on working up a sweat getting my muscles working it's so it
Margarita Gurri:clears the mind to doesn't you know for like all of us like calligraphy. I mean, that's certainly a great way to clear the mind.
Mary Kutheis:What would you think if someone said their habit hobby was sitting on their porch swing?
Margarita Gurri:That's a fine hobby is because they're outside. They're seeing people and animals. I mean, I have my cup of coffee every morning with one of my daughters, wherever I'm visiting. And we we call it either porch time or deck time wherever we are. And we have a cup of coffee and we talk or we don't and it's lovely. I love that anchors my for me the mid mornings I wake up super early, but it anchors my mid morning you know like No
Yonason Goldson:matter where you live in St. Louis, where I do and the amount of days we can actually sit on the porch, with the minimal weather are pretty limited. So, opportunities arrive.
Margarita Gurri:Again, I think that even if it's really cold, it's like being camping and you just bundle up and go outside, I think it's very nice. I think that there's a lot of pressure to look productive. And so a lot of people lose productivity by working too hard. And I think we have to spend time wasting time and playing and be creative, and doing things that don't look productive. I think it helps us be more productive.
Mary Kutheis:In my, in my book I talked about I'm not a fan of productivity. I mean, it's again, one of the reasons is because people will people don't ever think of a productive nap.
Margarita Gurri:Well, but they can be very productive. But if we have you one of your famous mind shifts, they do. Yeah, I think that depends on how we define productivity. But I think productivity is like my definition of being a grown up. People who do what they need to do in a timely manner. So you can play play play, that, for me, productivity is the same as efficiency, you've got the systems that people the resources, the mindset that processes and lay and then you work at it, and then you'd like. And I think we have to give ourselves up. Playtime is kind of it's fascinating.
Mary Kutheis:I agree that productivity is part of the process, not the end goal.
Margarita Gurri:Yeah, I think so. So that you can have time to play. And, you know, with COVID, the rabbi and I started a bunch of new projects separately and together. And it's been interesting, it's been fun, but it's a lot of work. So we're both learning how to have more fun again. And it's been I mean, we have fun, both of us no matter what we do, but more on purpose fun, you know, off task, one that I think has been very helpful to our thinking so well, you've been really generous with your time and we really appreciate your input. I could only see that as your successful grow more and more. What is the best way to reach you?
Mary Kutheis:Probably via my website, which is pretty easy. It's m c k coaching.com. And a Mary in front of that, Mary at is my email. So definitely, you can contact me through my website, and I happy to chat with anybody about this kind of stuff could talk all day.
Margarita Gurri:And they can certainly explore your you know, the assessment, or sure they are with their values and all so that would be good. Yeah. Well, Rabbi, do you have any last word, sir?
Yonason Goldson:No, I think we've left in a good place.
Margarita Gurri:I think so too. Well, we thank everyone for being on this episode of The rabbi in the shrink with Mary couth. Nice learning about thinking and it's important to attach it to our values, and they can set you free. We'll see you on another episode of The rabbi in a shrink be well and have fun.
Unknown:Thank you for listening to the rabbi and the shrink every day ethics unscripted, two book Dr. Red Shoe, Dr. Margarita Drewery, or Rabbi Jonas and Goldson as speakers or advisors for your organization, contact them at the rabbi and the shrink.com. This has been a doctor Red Shoe production