#84: Create a united culture by promoting dignity w/ Tami Pyfer

Are you part of the exhausted majority?
Can showing enthusiasm for one side imply contempt for the other?
Do you recognize the contempt you show others?

These and other deeply relevant questions are addressed when Dignity Index architect Tami Pyfer joins The Rabbi and the Shrink.

https://unite.us/home

https://www.linkedin.com/in/tami-pyfer-54238612b/

Ethics depends on invoking our common humanity.

Conscience testifies to the spark of divinity that defines us.

Mutual dignity is a given; respect is earned.

Being nice and agreeing about everything is not the answer.

What is the Dignity Index?

We don’t always have to show others that we’re right.

There’s no America without democracy, there’s no democracy without healthy debate, there’s no healthy debate without dignity.

We need to hold people we agree with accountable for their tone as well as their message.

Would you be willing to join Dividers Anonymous?

We need to set aspirational goals, join a supportive community, and collectively hold ourselves to a higher standard.

“You are not obligated to finish the job, but neither are you free to withdraw from it.”

We can’t be perfect, but we can continuously strive toward perfection in our speech and conduct toward others.

Righteous indignation feels better than chocolate.

Have we made an effort to understand why others believe or act the way they do?

Contempt is the root of Cancel Culture.

Free speech survives only through responsibility and accountability.

Self-censorship can be both positive and negative.

Word of the Day:  Reification

the act of treating something abstract, such as an idea, relation, system, quality, etc., as if it were a concrete object;

the act of treating a person as a thing; objectification

To be ethical, we have to strike a balance between applying abstract concepts into our daily lives and preserving the nuance of the idea without oversimplifying.

Transcript

0:03

Welcome to the rabbi and the shrink. This is Dr. Margarita Gurri, your shrink. And this is my favorite rabbi, Yonason Goldson. The good rabbi and I are delighted today to have Tammy pyfer with us. Hi, Tammy. Hello! Hello Tami Premise changing the world. She's inspiring everyone to have dignity instead of contempt. And in this world of cancel culture and hate speech and people who can't seem to listen because they're listening to their own thoughts or fears, she's come up with a group of enlightened individuals with an organization called Unite, and she has the the Dignity Pledge and the Dignity Index. I tell me, how did all of this get started? Well, I just wanted to stop at Tammy is changing the world. I as hopefully, you know, the great people of America and people that are the exhausted majority is what they're called often in research. They're changing the world for the better. And I'm just happy to be part of this movement that I joined in 2020. During the pandemic, I was working in our Utah governor, Gary Herbert's office. His education policy advisor, and we were homebound and a lot of our activities were curtailed because of the pandemic. And I had some free time on my hand and I connected with this group called Unite, Dr. Tim Shriver, who was leading the effort. And Tom Rauscher and I started volunteering. And I realized then that this was the next big thing for me. When I left the governor's office that year, it was his last year. I knew that I needed to be involved in this movement. Well, I think you're right. The rabbi and I've been very impressed with your work. So tell is. The is there the phrase the exhausted majority? I haven't heard that before. That just sums it up so perfectly. Right. I guess my first thought was exhausting majority as well. Exhausting minority. And that's why you haven't exhausted me. Exactly. So tell us tell us about your your old dignity movement. So shortly before I joined Unite in early 2020, I had just read a book by Arthur Brooks called I Love Your Enemies. And my husband and I were talking about this concept of contempt being really the biggest problem facing the country. And I joined Unite, and they had just been working on this reading this book together called Dignity by Donna Hicks. And she talked about how dignity is really the problem solver. Donna Hicks is a renowned conflict resolution specialist. Her career was spent all over the globe working in war torn countries and working in severe conflict. And she worked with Desmond Tutu and Northern Ireland. And then after that interaction and that work with with Bishop Tutu, he said, Donna, you need to write a book about what you're doing. And so she wrote a book called Dignity and how Dignity was the key to solving some of these intractable problems. So so the content side that, you know, we were talking about being the problem, dignity being the problem solver that started to coalesce in our minds, in our work with Unite and throughout the rest of that year and then especially early in 2021, we started to come up with this idea of highlighting the news through the lens of people that were using dignity to solve problems and came up with this this idea of the dignity index. I think it's brilliant. And Rabbi Bellamy, I always like to ask them to throw the theoretical questions. That was easy to say. Robert, what does all of this have to do with ethics, sir? Well. Well, I think it has everything to do with ethics, because what when you when you board down, where where does the obligation to be ethical come from? It comes from recognizing our collective humanity, our individual humanity. Is if you if you see an animal in the wild attack another animal, you don't think, oh my goodness, how can how can that wolf act that way? Because that's its nature and that's its environment and that's expected. But human beings, we have a spark of the divine in us, and that calls on us to conduct ourselves on a higher planet. And that human dignity is ultimately what obligates us in all of our undertakings. So it's critically important and relevant to ethics. And that's why he's my favorite rabbi. And. I. So back to you then. I love your all of your materials online and you have a beautiful statement about what we believe. So maybe we start with there. What do you believe in terms of your dignity movement? So. Well, we believe, for one thing, the index itself. We believe that words matter. We believe that what we say to and about each other can lead to peacemaking, can lead to problem solving. It can ease divisions or it can lead to violence. And we also believe that that everyone belongs we believe that everyone has as the as the rabbi said, the spark of divinity within us. And we are all inherently we have inherent dignity by the fact that we are members of the human race. In my religion, we are brothers and sisters, literally brothers in spirit, brothers and sisters. So we believe that everyone deserves to be treated with dignity by the mere fact of their humanity. And so those those drive those core beliefs drive our work. And I want to go back to something that the rabbi said, which is this this spark of divinity. And we've talked a lot about conscience being a driver for for the change that people make when they realize when they realized through the index or through, you know, some of the things that they're seeing take place in in problem solving organizations when they realize that they might be part of the problem, they realize that they're also part of the solution. And it's our conscience that acts upon. So to say, wait a second, I see I'm doing that and I don't think it's right. And then that conscience helps turn us from being part of the problem into being part of the solution. And that's one of the exciting things we found about the Dignity Index is that people are saying they didn't realize that was me. I didn't really talk to my husband that way or I think that way about Democrats or Republicans. They didn't realize I was being contemptuous in my remarks. You know, looking at your website, there's so much here that is just inspirational, aspirational, But there's one one line that really resonated with me. It says Mutual dignity is a given. Respect and trust are earned and I think that we we have a problem in that we conflate these concepts and well, if if I don't find you, I don't find your ideas, I don't find your positions. I don't by your behavior worthy of respect, then you aren't worthy of dignity and and that's where we get into so much trouble. That's where the acrimony comes from. That's where the the vitriol and the and the shaming and the language of combativeness comes from that if dignity is a given, then we can talk about trust and respect. And we can we can find out where where that has to come from. But if we can't treat each other with dignity, then we're never going to get to those stages because we're shut down before you. Absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, that kind of goes to one of the criticisms that we hear sometimes is you just you guys just want everyone to be nice to each other and agree all the time. We want you just want everyone to be the same. It's like, no, no, no, no. The diversity is fantastic and the diversity in our cultures, in our thinking and our beliefs, I think that adds to better problem solving. I know in my experience as a policymaker, it adds a better policy. So it's not about agreeing on everything and uniting to be the same. It's uniting over this principle that everyone deserves to be treated with dignity. And and I think, as you've so beautifully stated, that's the starting point. Then we can talk about these things that we adamantly, adamantly disagree on because we're doing it with with dignity for that other person. So let's talk about dignity. Let's say the listener has an organization. How do they know where they are on your dignity index? Well, you can go to our website. I love having a chance to to plug our website. So if you go to our website, which is Dignity index dot us, we have on the website the section called the index. We walk you through this tool, which is a one through eight scale, and that's really it's a shorthand and this is what a lot of people have have responded so positively to, is that they said, It's easier for me to remember this. I can see it just so simply. So steps one through four are the contempt end of the scale. One is the lowest. And that's where you're escalating really from violent words to violent actions. Then the other side is less than human. So we can do whatever we want to them, including violence. This is where genocide happens. Once you force the contempt side and you move up the scale, you get to the dignity side, which is five through eight. And that's where you start to change your perception. It's like, okay, I may not agree with that person, but they have a right to be here. They have a right to their opinion, and I'll listen to their point of view. Five, six, seven, eight moves you up to where, wow, I you know, not only do you have a right to be here, but I kind of want to care about your views because I want to find those areas that we agree on, which is kind of a six behavior. Seven is I want to find out those areas where we don't agree. I want to learn more about how we don't agree because once I learn about those disagreements, I can understand why you came to that thinking. And again, let's put this in a problem solving framework. Now I can solve a problem if I'm a school board member or if I'm a city council member, if I'm just working in an organization. As you said, Margaret, I can say, Wow, this other person's making me crazy. They don't want to do it my way. Well, let's talk about where we agree and let's talk about where we disagree and how you came to that. And now that puts us in this alliance where we can solve problems together. And then eight, you know, speaking of Bishop Tutu, I always think he is my model eight where you kind of lose you lose this attachment to being right. You can you love and cherish your group or people that you interact with, but you also see the humanity and dignity in everyone. And you can talk with anyone and find something of a value or worth in that conversation, in that interaction with someone else. So we treat people with dignity no matter what. That's the level I'm striving for there. I'm not going to tell you where I'm at because it fluctuates day by day. But but I think that's where it's a it's an aspirational goal for all. You know, when you talk about not having to be right. You just reminded me a silly little incident of sitting at a table with a group of people and one fellow saying, That's what drives me. He says, How old are you? You can't be older than I am. And I said, Okay. And that was the reaction from the table. You know, it turned out I was older than you were. But but, you know, this is how they are going to pick a fight over. Yeah, well, it reminds me of I came to this country as a refugee and was taken in, you know, by my best friend's family. They were southern. I moved to Florida, but they were from from a southern area. And then the mama, when she disagreed with us, would sometimes say, Don't make me revote your birth certificate. Talk about a cancel culture. And apparently that was a phrase, a Southern phrase, which I just adore. Don't make me revoke it. And I just love that idea. So it's no, you know, it's interesting. So now let's write you know, if I write sometimes I don't need to assert that. I mean, I know I used to I used to have a personality quirk that I can be corrected people's grammar all the time. I never heard you do that with me. Rap. I never you know, you're you're my co-host. I am. I hold you to a higher standard. But, you know, the truth is, as people's grammar gets worse and worse, I get a little more mature, you know, after 20 or 30 years or 40. But, you know, it's just not it doesn't need to be done. No, it doesn't. Important to correct everything you hear. That's not right. You have to we have to get over our OCD or automatic reaction to be ever so helpful to the spirit of listening. And it's hard for all of us. You know, it's interesting. All right. So now let's get to the dignity pledge. Okay. I love it. And I had one concern. I feel very protective of your organization because I love. Thank you. Thank you. You know, coming to this country as a refugee, I got beat up quite a bit when I was little for being Cuban and for being nonwhite. And how interesting learning experiences that have changed my worldview, including how I may be limited in my acceptance of others as well as it may know, I'm never short an opinion. So working on that. So my biggest concern about your dignity pledges, how can I, as a sound human being, sign it when the first one is I pledge and commit to number one? I'll always be kind. Well, I've already failed. So I hope us understand that because I don't want I want everyone to understand the aspirational nature of your pledge. Yeah. So if you go on the website and you click on that, we, I mean, like right up front, we're going to get you we want you to take this pledge, but we talk. We try to frame this dignity pledge in the fact that as the pledge states, there's no America without democracy and there's no democracy without healthy debate. There's no healthy debate without dignity. So we ask people to pledge to treat others with dignity and not contempt. And that is very aspirational, especially, you know, let me just back up for a second. When we talk about the index, we talk about applying it in moments of disagreement. And it's really meant to measure what we do when we're hurt or we're angry or these areas of disagreement. And so the time when we want you to apply it most is the most difficult time to apply it. So it is aspirational and if you think about it, we we all daily probably wake up saying, I going to do a little bit better on that. One thing. I am I'm you know, I lost my temper on the freeway and I honked at that guy. I think I call him an idiot. I'm going to do a little bit better today. And incrementally, if we can look at the pledge as kind of incrementally like I'm going to do my best to try to stop that contempt and to treat people with more dignity and less contempt. I have to tell you, some of the feedback that we've had that has come in after people start to hear about us is so inspiring. I want to read you a little comment that I had on social media where this this woman had said and this was a couple of days after she had read an article in political magazine, magazine, and she said, I just texted an organization whose position I support. However, I felt that their communication vilified elected officials to raise funds. They recommended that they review the Dignity index, evaluate their contemptuous marketing and align their messaging, their messaging with their values and increase dignity. So it's like this woman that, you know, maybe took the pledge, maybe she didn't. But she saw she noticed that what an organization she supported was using contempt and she did something about it. She sent them a message. We had another message shortly after that from a woman who said, I've got to watch myself on Facebook. I really is. This is what I'm doing. I get so worked up when this kind of message is being posted. I'm going to practice and I'm going to try to do better. And so those are the types of actions that we hope people will take even just from signing the pledge and having now in your mind, it's like, ooh, you know, I pledge to do better. Today's a bad day, but tomorrow I will do better. And let me let me think of a way that I could do that. But how can I sign? So back to the me being devil's advocate, how can I sign a pledge that I know I can never achieve? I know you. Say and you say. You remind you remind me of this little experiment that we are running within the core member of the core members of our movement that are leading, you know, kind of this work that we're doing on the Dignity Index. We are experimenting with a group called Dividers Anonymous. We're basically we're basing it on the 12 step programs of other are Alcoholics Anonymous, Narcotics Anonymous. And the language is very much the same, which is I have a problem and I am going to notice that problem. And every week this is painful sometimes because every week in our small group meeting, we we talk about where we succeeded that week, where we failed that week. And, and and and there are times last week I even said, look, I knew I was I knew I was speaking with contempt and I knew I was going to have to confess it to my dividers anonymous group and I did it anyway. I said I'm not going to do that next week. But the difference being, you know, with you can be 12 years sober. We think it's probably impossible to be 12 years or maybe even a day or a week without having some of these thoughts and feelings and interactions where we are not we are not fully in the dignity realm. We know that's going to happen, but we are experimenting with this group that just keeps it top of mind for us. So I feel like I want to sign the pledge and then I'm going to repent and I'm going to do better. And every every interaction I have, I'm going to think, Ooh, I'm going to have to talk about this with my group or what I read on the scale. I'll get messages from text threads that I mean, who they'll say something's funny or snarky, and then they'll say, Oh, Tammy, wait, was that a four? On the dignity scale is like, You better believe it was a four on the dignity scale. So even having this scale kind of stuck in our minds helps remind us that there is a better way that we're all human. And so, I mean, if you have if you're a perfectionist, you feel like I could never live up to that, then that might not be the thing for you to say. But if you're a striver like we are and feel like, you know, I'm going to try, I'll pledge to do better, I'm not going to be perfect, but I can do better. Well, it's not just about perfectionism and striving. It's about the language. And I think if we can be aspirational and not a commitment, rather you have something perfect to say about this whole thing about undertaking a task so. Well, it's not really what I have to say. About the ages. Yeah, I'm one of our class. Okay. Not one up in our classical ethical treatise Ethics Forefathers. The sages say it's not incumbent upon you to finish the job, but neither are you free to withdraw from it. So what is the job? The job is fulfilling 100% of my personal potential. That's my job in this world. Well, how many of us are actually going to do that? One moment of inattention, one loss of temper. I have now squandered that moments of worth of potential that I'll never get it back. So neither am I free to withdraw from it. I need that aspirational bar that I am continuously striving to reach, knowing I'm never going to reach it and yet never giving up the effort. And you know, when you mention I'll make a mistake and then I'll repent the concept of repentance in Judaism, the word for repentance is tuva, which really means return, returning to the straight path. Because and as much of a cliché as this is, it is entirely true that the the journey is the destination we are not in life to get to the finish line. We are in life to run the race. And that means continuously expecting more from ourselves and knowing where to fail, knowing or to slip back and then recovery. Making a new commitment. Where did I go wrong when I go to sleep at night? What did I do today that I could've done better? When I wake up in the morning, what should what must I do today to be better? And just having that front of mind as much as possible, we will become better people over the course of our lives. That's beautiful. And that's, I think, what your pledge is. It's that commitment to constantly try to do better. And I think, Tammy, you were saying that you were urging people to use this when they need it most in the midst of a crisis of dignity or contempt when they're in the gray area, you know, of of behaving in a way that's useful or not useful to the world or to themselves. And that's where we get emotional and moral intelligence by living within that portal, that nexus between doing it with dignity or doing something with contempt. I love that you chose it that way. It's I think it's a brilliant system. You know, I find that when when I'll see something on the news in particular or something that's happening maybe in my community and when when I get the urge to roll my eyes, which which Dr. Gartman and Arthur Brooks talks about this in his book, that's the sign of contempt. When I get the rules, the urge to roll my eyes and go, what in that crap are they thinking? I am? That's my signal to say, okay, time out. Let's look at this. And I try to go to the scale. And if I can get to five and not in the contempt area, which the, you know, the four is, I don't trust those people. They're incompetent, they're fools. If I can just get myself to a five instead of five, then I relax a little bit and say, okay, let me figure out is it true what I'm reading isn't actually true? Let me find out where that motivation is coming from. And often you'll find that what what was the spark for someone to say something or do something that I think is egregious really makes a lot of sense when you find out where they're coming from. So. So yeah, the eye rolling for me, that's my signals. I come down. With a righteous indignation. Righteous indignation feels so good. It's almost as good as chocolate. I mean, really. It's so close. Well, you know, can I just I'm going to say, Rabbi, that a lot of people, they they mask their contempt with righteous indignation. Indignation is like, Oh, no, it's not contempt. I have a right to be. I'm fine and patriotic. And they mask their contempt through that language of patriotism or righteous indignation. And so that's something that we also have to peel away, really, that mask and see see it for what it really is. Well, it just occurs to me that indignation is the opposite of dignity, isn't it? It is. Go, you know, coming to this country as a refugee. One of my pet peeves in this whole world of dignity is the whole free speech thing. And it's true. As Americans, we have every right to be a jerk and to be dangerous with our language. It's our right. But as members of a democratic republic, we have an obligation to inspire others with our words to productive solutions and the first part of the solution is understanding all the edges of differences. Right? So we have to go to the area of contempt. It's a gift. It lets us know where an area of difference exists, Right? So if we're too scared to go into the land of contempt, we'll never get the dignity we have to look at it with with faith that somehow it will be useful. And I. I think you do that well. Well, and I think people you know, one another criticism that we've heard off and on is you just want to use the dignity index to shut us up. You want to cancel this. And that's actually what we've what we've come to realize is that contempt shuts people up. I mean, if you want to have an open conversation and not cancel people, then let's open, let's be open. Let's treat people dignity and have that feedback that when you start showing contempt and speaking with contempt, people shut down. And I had this experience when I was serving on the city council and I would chair a meeting with a public hearing and there'd be a lot of heated discussion. You know, we had rules and the rules were, I would say, no applause. Not only no booing, but no applause either, because when you start to show favoritism, you're shutting down someone that may want to come to the mike with a different opinion. And and and you want that opinion. You don't want people to feel like they are marginalized. And when you use contemptuous language or in the case of even some of these public hearings, when you've got a crowd of people really animated about one side and it can turn to booing, but you're shutting down free speech, I want to hear free speech and contempt shuts that down, which is why we favor dignity over contempt. The other thing that shuts us down is I'm looking at what you're saying that people say was cancel culture, that you're trying to shut us up. I think they're misunderstanding that assessment, which requires the self-discipline to really look at ourselves or have reflection. Judgment, free reflection is assessment at its best. Correct. But it also requires discipline, which is also shuts us down because we can't just do whatever we want. Those sophisticated moral and emotional and behavioral principles are not cancel culture. It's actually dignity, behavior. It's humanity, right? It's humanity. It's what's required of us, as my mother would have said in Spanish, be hate or not, you know, don't do that. And there. Should not. Be at all like my little daughter. No. Yeah, that may hit or not. And I think that when we're looking at the index for ourselves, I looked at your index and I thought you could do better or not. Okay, how do I do Better That look. All right? I sound like a rolling Isaac, okay? And I think that we have to have a sense of humor and a sense of love for ourselves and for the process. And I think the Dignity Index does have that. You don't come across like judgmental people in ugly brown shoes. You don't know the whole term free speech is I think it needs reflection because, you know, something is free that also applies. It's worthless if we have the freedom to speak as we choose, but we have the response ability to be disciplined in the way we speak. And one of the terms that's become we hear a lot of these Davies's self-censorship. And, you know, I censor myself all the time. I don't use profanity. I think it's inconsistent with a rabbinic persona. But that doesn't mean I don't feel like swearing once in a while, but I choose not to because I don't think it's going to be beneficial on the other hand, self-censorship. Censorship is used in cases where people feel afraid to speak up. So the same term, depending on the context, can either be something that promotes meaningful discourse or shut it down. Promotes dignity or contempt. Well, and to your point, Margaret, on the scale, like when you see yourself in a three or a four, the beauty I think of the scale is as is it's all in front of you and you're not always a three, you're not always a four, you're not always a seven, you're not a we. We move back and forth in these levels, depending on the context, the circumstance, and how maybe how deeply angry or afraid that we might be about a particular incident. But it allows us to see ourselves always being able to to move up or to do better or to handle something differently, and also to see ourselves as human and know that we we may land there, you know, occasionally. But I think once we see the the impact that it has on others. And to your point, Rabbi, when we start to self-censor, because we are not feeling like we're in a place that's going to listen to our input when we when we know how that feels to be in that position where we can't speak because we fear that contemptuous reaction or that it's not going to make a difference, then it opens us up to be able to offer that to someone else, to offer the dignity and the openness to someone else. I think that's beautifully put, but we could talk to you forever. All right. So now, Rabbi, we're going to do the work for the day. And when we come back, we're going to ask Tammy about a personal adventure she's looking forward to and give us some final words of wisdom for her amazing dignity movement. Rabbi, the word of the day is reification. Reification, which is the act of treating something abstract such as an idea, relation, system, quality, etc., as if it were a concrete object. And here again we have a concept that can be positive or negative, because if you have a you know, I'm a, I'm a philosopher, I live in the world of ideas and I have to be very disciplined to bring those ideas down to the practical. That's why the doctor and I are such good partners, because she's much more focused on on making things actionable and practical. And so it makes for a good team that we have to take those concepts and apply them in a way that's concrete. Otherwise they remain amorphous. However, if we take that too far, if we think that every concept can be distilled into something that is solely pragmatic, then we end up oversimplifying and we lose the texture, lose the nuance, we lose the the sense of gray that we have to grapple with if we want to, to be ethical. So another meaning of reification can be the act of treating a person as a thing or objectification. So that's often something that we see in this type of situation where you are your opinion in my eyes, and consequently, since I can validate your opinion and validate you so as with so many things, we have to achieve a balance. We have to be able to bring the abstract into our lives in a practical way. But we also have to retain that sense of fluidity because the uncertainties of life and the difference of perspectives are such that we're going to have to deal with complexities, with tension, with disagreement. But if we can make that disagreement constructive, then we can move forward in a positive way. Well, tell me, you see what you inspired. You chose the word for you. I love that. Thank you. If the word fits, I think that's a great way to say. All right. So what are you looking forward to on a personal level? Because we know that people who want to make a difference in the world must engage in self-care and fun and things. We're excited about our good part of self-care. So now what you got? So I used to sing in the Tabernacle Choir at Temple Square, formerly known as the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. I sang in the choir for seven years, and last September I finished my service singing in the choir. But now I work with external relations for the choir, still part of a volunteer assignment, and I welcome special guests to the choir and help make these arrangements. And the choir is going on a tour this summer to Mexico City. And so I will be going with the choir and doing some of what I do with working with special guests of the choir and VIP's. And just this experience, getting people to experience the choir. I will be doing some of that with the choir when we go on tour to Mexico City. So I was super excited about that. Oh, you're. Going to love Exciting. That's that's wonderful. We will let them know to watch out for you. They'll see the positive wave of energy and go with what just happened to our atmosphere. There you go. So that'll be good. Well, I think that's a wonderful thing to do. All right. So final last words for our listeners and viewers. What can they do to change how they think, feel or do around the issue of dignity? So we would we would love to have your listeners join the movement, really go to our website. It's dignity index dot us and you can either take the pledge or you can go to the bottom of the home page. Just sign up for the newsletters that we sent out every few weeks. We're trying to make this really an interactive group too, where people can send us their ideas we've gotten a lot of ideas on how to build this movement. But but the first step, I think, is to look at the scale, kind of internalized what that means, and then just start to see places everyday where you could apply the index in your family, in your organization, in the social media that you consume or don't consume, and start to see where we're again, with our conscience, where we realize that we might be contributing to the problem, but then we are the solution to the problem and then just join this movement of us, of people that that do that to your introduction, that want to change the world. Or are changing the world. Are changing the world by. Changing. The world and changing it for the better. Yeah, we hope so. I guess there is a positive a negative thanks, but. Yes, there. Is a direction. I appreciate this. Well, tell me it's been absolutely delightful. Thank you for joining us. And we're already looking to when we can we can schedule to have you back again. And the work you're doing really is inspirational, aspirational, and you should continue to have tremendous success with it. Thank you. It's been my pleasure. Absolute pleasure. I, I always get nervous and then I come on and meet people. It is like, this is delightful. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Now, we're delighted that you could join us. And Dr.. What's your last word for the day? Well You know, as a psychologist and as a protective mother and grandmother, I'm going to ask people if you want to have more dignity, ask yourself, where do you feel that you're given most grace of dignity and where are you giving most of the grace of dignity? I'm Catholic, obviously, so think of grace. So start first with what's really working and then ask yourself, how were you blocking dignity? And then the worst case is how are you inspiring contempt? So I would look at it from the positive to the more closed down so that we don't invite shame to the table. So I do believe that your dignity movement is about everyone working together in a productive and healthy environment, and we are just delighted that you could join us. Thank you so much for sharing your journey and your wisdom. We appreciate. It. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you very much. Well, this has been an episode of the rabbi and the shrink. And join us for the next episode. Thank you. Thank you for listening to the rabbi and the shrink. Everyday ethics unscripted to book Dr. Read, SHU, Dr. Marguerita Curry or Rabbi Jonathan Goldson as speakers or advisors for your organization, contact them at the rabbi and the shrink icon. This has been a Dr. Red Shu production.