What does leadership really look like?
How do you decide what to share, with your team and with the outside world?
And when you're a leader, how do you balance the ever-changing demands that get put on you?
Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski helps us sort of how to be a real leader and not just the person in charge!
Boundary management is a communications management term. And what it means is there are some things that you share with your team, and only your team. And there are some things that you share with the greater stakeholder community. The question becomes, if you are not fully transparent if you are making choices about what you share, and when you share it, is boundary management, actually ethical or is it by some people's lights, fibbing, lying, committing the falsehood?
The seven key success parameters are actually a framework that is sort of like the most beautiful Mandela of things that are interwoven. But for explanation purposes, we generally take them apart. But they always start out with clear definition.
We've been trying to get this client for years, decades. We got the request for proposal. I went through it, I took it to my engineers, my engineers got incredible heartburn. And I went to my boss, and I said, Diana, how much trouble Am I going to be in if I go to this client and respectfully declined to bid on the business? It's not bleeding edge, it's hemorrhaging edge. And they don't believe that they can make it work to a level of reliability and quality, that they're willing to put their names and our company name on.
Welcome, everyone to the rabbi and the shrink. I'm Dr. Margarita Guri CSP known as Dr. Red shoe. And this is my favorite rabbi, Rabbi Yonason Goldson. And he is an ethics ninja. We have with us today, Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski. Welcome. Oh, hon delighted, as are we, you talk about tough decisions and leadership, and leadership driven. Project Management, never has been been more of a need for you as the world is pressing play after the COVID. I know it's still going on. But we're beginning to go back to the next phase of whatever we call day to day. Tell us about project management. And what are the tough decisions facing each manager and each owner and each employee right now, as the world is pressing play again?Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski:
Well, there are a couple of things that are very specific to project management, and one of them is something called boundary management. And this presents a fascinating opportunity for discussion of ethics in relationship and expectation management. Now, boundary management is a communications management term. And what it means is there are some things that you share with your team, and only your team. And there are some things that you share with the greater stakeholder community. The question becomes, if you are not fully transparent, if you are making choices about what you share, and when you share it, is boundary management, actually ethical or is it by some people's lights, fibbing, lying, committing the falsehood? And that's something that I've noticed, and I'm very proud of them, that a lot more of my students and coaching clients are starting to ask that question. And I'm delighted. And then I thought, I'm also stuck. I know exactly who can help me with formulating a clearer sense of the difference between boundary management and lying, there is a difference between transparency and well not a difference. But there is a relationship between transparency and tiny. And I'm starting to wonder where that lies ethically.Yonason Goldson:
Robert, that sounds like a great sticky situation for you. That's really tickled with this whole line of discussion and just to make a brief forward for foray. The whole concept of boundaries is one of my favorite discussions, I have a whole chapter in my book proverbial beauty about mine too. And, and your King Solomon says, Do not remove the boundaries of eternity that were placed that were put in place by your ancestors. And you know, we're in a time when every convention is being challenged. And while it's certainly healthy, to question and to reevaluate, but too many are thrown the baby out with the bathwater. And just a fascinating footnote to history. Albert Einstein, years after publishing his theory of relativity, came to regret that he had introduced this concept to the world. And he wrote a friend he said that, essentially that once people are seeing that physical boundaries are malleable. It's a short step from relative relativity to relativism. And he actually foresaw that ethical and moral boundaries we're going to be increasingly challenged with I just find this really fascinating and So to your point, um, you know, in in Jewish law, we have a very strict and urgent principle, against gossiping. And gossip is by definition, true. If it's not, if it's not true, it's not gossip, it's slander. It is also wrong. But we do make that distinction. And so when you talk about omitting information, there are times when it It is inappropriate to tell the truth. And much to your point about timing. The sages say, Don't rebuke somebody when, in the time of his anger, don't try to comfort a martyr in the time of their of their pain. Because you have to choose the right moment, you have to find the right words, you have to know what to say what not to say. And, like I always say, there's no app for being ethical. You can't just open the rulebook and say, Well, here's number 43 of the ethical behavior guide, their ethical principles, but situations change and every situation is unique and have to balance priorities. So it's good to ask the questions you're asking. That's what keeps us on track. It's good to question ourselves. But in principle, knowing that there are times to fully disclose, and there are other times when it's just not appropriate,Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski:
or could actually cause harm to somebody else's peace of mind. Yes,Margarita Gurri:
it all either that bottom line of a business, there are times that leaders must bear the burden of keeping certain things to themselves. The trick is, it's just like taste and style. It's hard to teach ethics. And in those kinds of complicated situations, and you can read grappling with the gray and I put the good rabbis book link in the chat. And luckily, we have a podcast so you can always come and ask. So help us out then gave me you created something really cool. From all your experience the the seven key parameters, yes, that will help guide leaders as they lead, please enlighten us, I can't wait to hear them.Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski:
Well, the seven key success parameters are actually a framework that is sort of like the most beautiful Mandela of things that are interwoven. But for explanation purposes, we generally take them apart. But they always start out with clear definition. And clear definition is not just the dictionary. It's not it's not just what the dictionary, it's just what a word means according to some glossary, but it's also that everybody has a commonly held context. The joke I used to say, a long, long time ago was Do you know what ATM stands for? And everybody says automatic teller machine. And leaving aside the fact that we get redundant, I'm going to the ATM machine. For someone intelecom ATM does not stand for something that spits out $20 bills. In Telecom, it's a synchronous transmission map. So you must have the context that is shared and clearly understood. so clear. Big Oh, it's amazing how quickly we fall into the trap of thinking, Oh, well, they know Well, I mean, I don't have to explain it. I got an email recently for the very first in person event that I'm planning to go. And the note ended said, we will be at the little church with a blue door. And I thought there's no address here. Am I the only one who is completely clueless about what church in what town and how blue is the door? Because to me, if it's named the little church with the blue door, it's all blue. But for their purposes, it might be a sky blue, that looks to me an awful lot like why I mean, so common context is is a big, big deal. But that also leads to understanding things like interdependency, which is the overarching theme, the key success parameters. And it's also the reason why I did a quick post about what do you do, when the ethics in the situation are not cut and dry? They're not simple, because well past a certain age, they never are they and they're cut and dry. You haven't asked enough questions. And there goes that context again. You clearly think you have all of the information. It's why my students get a gentle reminder that the term no brainer only counts for one brain. The other person at so much. So and we talk about ownership. And that is where leadership often runs into kind of an interesting issue. We do use a responsibility accountability and authority model, however, it's a little different. We say that you are truly responsible when you've made an internal commitment to do everything you can to do it right. To do what well, and to be honorable. accountability is being willing to share the news, whatever the news is, when you need to, is there a problem? And you get the funny feeling, you can't solve it by yourself. Great. Bring it to your leadership, because as I like to say, and my my business partner likes to say, look, we can't solve a problem if we don't know that it exists. But you do. We can help. And last but not least, is where leadership comes in. When those two internal commitments are made. We should give them more formal authority. And in project management, that becomes tough. Because we don't have a lot of formal authority would which would you agree I mean, you know, so that becomes an issue. Along with that is understanding collaborative spirit. rigorous quality, and risk management. And we often tell people, if you have a collaborative spirit, you can do anything, you can solve any problem. Because the problem, as big as it is, is not bigger than all of us. And to a lot of folks, this sounds well, awfully simplistic, but it goes to the heart of why we have projects to begin with. And that is to create customer focus, deliverables. I'm out of it. And it's very easy to get all jazzed, new, exciting thing. But if it doesn't help my customer achieve their objective, I don't care how cool it is, keep it out of there. Put it in the change your costs.Margarita Gurri:
Whatever you're doing, it's working, because I did some research on you. And you've delivered 162% increase over three years for your clients. And with a protection rate of 86 to 92% for client retention. All right, what's the secret? Everyone's paying attention? How do we copy your results other than by hiring you? How do we copy those results? What do we do?Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski:
patients, something this society does not reward next. drop the mic right there. really be aware that you're the guardian of your clients objectives, when they bring you in, whether they bring you in from another department or from outside like might like me like Michael, they taking that responsibility that makes you the Guardian, and the responsible party for helping them manifest that objective. It's not your objective, you don't get to decide. But sometimes you have to poke them a little bit. Gentle reminders are frequently called for. Because your example of a gentle reminder. Oh, easy. Our most recent client has said I don't care how long it takes, do not go over the budget. And I said, Do you have a range that not go over the budget means he said yes. 003 days later, he came to me and said, there's something that I want you to do to make this a little bit easier. And he outlined what he was asking for. And I said I'm happy to do that, Brad. However, just as a reminder, our budget is already stretched very thinly, if I tried to put that work in, it will snap. So does that mean that you and I need to have a chat about changing the priorities and having some additional budget added in conjunction with approving this change? Or was it just a really cool idea because it is and you just wanted to share it. But now that you think about it now Maybe not so much. Gentle reminders do not have to be Hey, dude. You said the budget was stuck, the budget is stuck. That means this change request. Nice try. Leave them the courtesy the respect, fulfill your role as the responsible party for their achieving their objective. And by God, do not assume they're always going to remember what you told they told you until you remind them.Yonason Goldson:
And we've talked before about the insidious term, people use soft skills. Oh, I hate that. And somebody actually told me they started calling power skills, which I like a lot better. That was me. Was that you? I was thinking, as I was asking the question, if I'm maybe I'm gonna, I'm gonna give you credit.Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski:
Well, I think that it was at a meeting where we were, I think two people in 25. So I'm not at all surprised. But it was also something that I thought doctor you would enjoy, because so much of what you bring to the table. I study and try very hard to learn from your examples. As project leaders, we have to be just edging sometimes into counseling and helping people. Yes. And just because we can identify the problem that we think is going on, doesn't mean we shouldn't do a little bit of investigation and confirmation to make sure that we're not completely Looney Tunes. And soMargarita Gurri:
here is one of the ethical dilemmas that any consultant or any outside person has to face. And the rabbi and I've seen many examples of this, if I nudge if I stick my neck out, will I get fired? So what I've seen is a lot of people being afraid to be accountable, leaders, honorable sticking to what is right, because they're afraid they get fired. And it doesn't mean they have to be unkind in how they do things. But I think if we are the guardians, a guardian is at risk. And we should be there is no job security for guardians. I mean, you have to be on the lookout from enemies from within and without enemies of truth, justice in the American way, you know, whatever. So So rabbi, talk to us about this idea of how do we help people understand the courage that it takes to do what Timmy does?Yonason Goldson:
That's a really interesting question. Well, thank you. How do you how do you teach courage? I think the starting point is recognizing that courage is not the absence of fear. Not by a longshot, if there's if you're not afraid, there's nothing to be courageous about. So the these daredevils like jumping off buildings, it's not that they're courageous, they're reckless. If you know and in fact, in my in my keynotes, I talked about the three enemies of ethics. And the second one is fear. And the solution I offer is to fight fear with fear. Because if we would spend as much time thinking about what could go wrong, if we don't act as we do, what will go wrong, if I do act, then at least we can achieve a certain level of equal equal equilibrium. And that you know, there's so many examples of people who simply we're afraid to act. We're afraid I may the I like the the story of when United Airlines when they dragged the doctor off the plane a couple of years ago. Yes, it was they had they needed the seat. And then they offered though. Nobody wanted to pay, take the money to give up their seat. And so they chose a random set of the security guards dragged him off the plane then the video went viral. They got a million multimillion dollar lawsuit, the stock value plummeted a billion dollars. And why did this happen? Because the gate agent was only authorized to offer up to three up to $800 for passengers to give up the seats and when nobody would take the deal She didn't want she was afraid to exceed her authority. Yes. In hindsight, isn't it obvious that she would have offered a few $100? More? Yes. But it's not her fault. It's the supervisors who need to give her the sense we trust you to use your judgments will back you up if you have to make an executive decision, we want you to recognize there going to be times when you are going to have to make a decision that may feel like it's coloring outside the lines a little bit. But the situation demands it. If If leaders will communicate that and you talked about you, I was the seventh rule of giving people the authority, giving people the power when it's appropriate. We know micromanagement doesn't work. Oh, God. No. But ultimately, it doesn't work. Because it means we don't I don't trust you. It works. I get lots of clients. Yeah. profitable.Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski:
I love my grandma. But your help actually takes them out of being micromanagers. Yeah, there is something else in the authority, though, that has to do with not just power. But permission and protection, because everybody makes mistakes.Margarita Gurri:
And that's what the rabbi was saying. Yeah, yeah.Yonason Goldson:
trust factor. We trust you to do your opinion. You said it before. The commitment to do your best. Yes. Sometimes I'm gonna mess up. We're human. Yeah. Sometimes there are no good choices.Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski:
Yeah, you know, I had a wonderful example of a leader who, if Diana Cole, today, I would be on the next flight to LA, I'd walked through fire for that woman. And we got an opportunity to do some business with a marquee client. That's the kind of client where you always put their logo on your website, with great excitement and fanfare. And we've been trying to get this client for years, decades. We got the request for proposal. I went through it, I took it to my engineers, my engineers got incredible heartburn. And I went to my boss, and I said, Diana, how much trouble Am I going to be in if I go to this client and respectfully declined to bid on the business. And their eyes got really big. But instead of saying, Have you lost your mind? She said, Okay. Getting the heart rate back, that tell me why. And I said, the best engineers we've had, have looked at this configuration, and it's not bleeding edge, it's hemorrhaging edge. And they don't believe that they can make it work to a level of reliability and quality, that they're willing to put their names and our company name on. We don't know when it'll break down, but we guarantee you the way they're currently demanding it be built, it will break down. And we're just not willing to go forward under those circumstances. Now, they know and I know that we don't get the last word on this. But I'm hoping you understand why we would prefer not to bid on it. She thought about it. I know, she made a few discreet phone calls, as well, she should have to double check. Were my engineers, you know, on the level. And then she went and said, go ahead and do it. I called the client and asked for a meeting. They were appalled because it was out of the scope of the request for proposal. And I said, Well, actually, I would like to explain why we're not going to bid. And I thought, are you are you still there? Are you still there? I went in. And the Vice President of finance looked at me said let me get this straight. You guys have been chasing us for two decades that I know of, and you're not bidding. And I said, No, sir, we're not. Because we don't believe we can create that in a way that we'd be proud to offer to you in a way that we believe would work for you. And he looked at me he said I'll be damned. Gonna get in trouble for this when you get back into your office. As I said, I don't know yet. But my boss has my back. Well, two things happened. As a result of that one. She went to bat for me and I got the best performance bonus I ever had. The year I told the client that we respectfully declined. But I'm Buddhist, we got the thing about karma. Three years later, I got a phone call from the same fellow. He was now with the new firm. I went into his office, Madam, and they handed me a contract. It was a no bid contract. For millions in branch, and I said, I'm a little puzzled. And he looked at me and said, zemsky, if something comes up, I know I'm going to hear it from you. I know it will be because you're looking after my best interests. I need somebody like that to handle this project. You guys take it, let me know. So I'm not saying do that. Because you want karma to, you know, come and grab you and go also do that, because it's the right thing to do. And somewhere along the line, you might actually be able to help somebody else see why it was the right thing to do. And that's not a bad thing.Margarita Gurri:
No, and I liked the way you did it without blame. Without any bad energy. You just explained it. I liked the respectful way that you went through the process. I I think it's great. I think you've grappled with the rabbi's gray beautifully.Yonason Goldson:
Well, that leads to one of my favorite mantras, which is the good ethics is good business. And saying you don't know saying you're wrong, saying I can't do it is not weakness. Its integrity.Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski:
It's it's weak knees. Okay. I had to sit down in his office. I've never had to do that before because I was pretty sure that if I didn't sit down, he would see my pants going like that. Because my knees were knocking so hard. I was I was never,Margarita Gurri:
it was easy. Courage wouldn't be such a big ideal. Yeah, courage takes a lot of strength. And sometimes our knees are the first to understand that the strength is being called to action, right? Yeah,Yonason Goldson:
I suppose if you want to get sort of physiological and philosophical, you'd say Why? Why do the knees shake because they don't want to go forward.Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski:
They, they don't want to be hitting the ground, in preparation for an axe coming about here through through their wood, which actually also gets to a question that I would like to ask the two of you. How would you suggest that I help the people that I coach, people who are at different stages of their careers, but are now facing something like this, because it is not my favorite to tell stories about my experiences, because it sounds to my way of thinking it doesn't sound on our ball. It sounds like I'm bragging. But it also is because that takes the focus off of them. And ethically as a coach. That's not what I'm there to do. So help, please.Margarita Gurri:
Well, the rabbi and I handle that in different ways. Rabbi handles it with stories from people so long ago, that it doesn't pose a problem. And I handle that by suggesting you tell happy clients stories. I had a client who is in this situation I did that is very proud of them took a lot of courage. You're facing something similar. I think instead of focusing on us, we can always focus on others success, whether they're old dead white guys, you know from the Bible, or with or without Yama cuz? Yeah, whichever, right? Robin? That's who you calling white? No, your pink. Okay. Hey, I said they were Middle Eastern, so they may not have been so white. Well, they may not have that's, that's right. They may not Thank God. All right. We've got some diversity in the Bible. This isYonason Goldson:
good. Let's just do it. And then of course, diversity is all about different perspectives, different angles, not about checking boxes or shouldn't be, and the willingness to look at things from different angles. I mean, it just Jewish history, we have many examples of people who could have changed the world in a phenomenal way. And didn't either because they didn't act when they should have, or they acted when they shouldn't. Which also leads nowhere supposed to go. My goodness, what I'm not supposed to do is say that there's a simple solution for every problem. Because there aren't, and as we talked about before, it's the willingness to look at every possible angle, explore every possible option, and then tried to make the best decision that I can make, under the circumstances. Understanding that cypa is not a strategy for success. If I'm so worried about what's going to come around and bite me from behind, then I'm going to be second guessing myself, all the way through. And so you get this bizarre balance between, like, say, go wrong with confidence? Well, no decision is also a decision. And so make up your mind, what's the best shot you have, and then go into it full force. Now, that doesn't mean you can't re evaluate along the way. You see it's not working, you have to change course, may have to back off. But that's not the same as being indecisive or irresolute. No.Margarita Gurri:
And I think that Kimmy, Kimmy, sorry, is very smart to point out that none of us have to do this alone. If I'm grappling with something, and I want input, I have some advisors. I can call the rabbi, I can call my friend, Brenda Miller. I can call Marilyn subtle. There are people I can call and say, What do you think my twin sisters never showed an opinion? Her husband? You know, I could ask that. So I have advisors, my friends, the wetters. So one of the things I mean, you asked a very important question. You know about what, what to do? Who are your team of advisors? Is the question I asked everyone who's listening? Who are your ethics advisors, because no project management can be successful as an endeavor, unless we know the objectives? And who is there to help with those because it's easy to lose perspective. So I'm going to ask you one final question before the word of the day. There are people listening, they want to do better. What are the top mistakes that people make? And I know, some of your titles for your talks? Let me read one of them, I think is so so funny, the tyranny of the urgent the cost of bad decisions. I love that. Talk about that, or other things, what are the top mistakes we make in project management, in terms of our leadership,Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski:
not establishing upfront, the kind of leader that we are striving to be, which includes being willing, able, although not thrilled to deliver the news that people need to hear. They don't want to hear it. But they need to hear it. And being upfront about that, you know, consultants are not the only project managers who can say, in the discovery process, before we go forward, I'd like you to know a little something about how I work and where my boundaries are. The things that I will stand for and the things that I'm sorry, would simply be unacceptable, according to my framework,Margarita Gurri:
would you mind demonstrating for us how to do that because I have a feeling everyone's on the edge of their seats right now, trying to figure out how do I do that? What do I say?Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski:
Well, if I were in front of a client right now, I would look at them. And I would say, All right, we've agreed upon the technicalities. But as you know, I believe that the team is the biggest tool you have for success. And in that light, I'd like to establish a picture for you of the way that I work with the team, including the sponsors, the clients and all of the users. This is important because if this isn't consistent with the principles by which you do business, I could do a bang up job but you would still be unhappy and rightfully so. But also If you asked me to do something that was outside of my personal framework of ethics, and honor, and I told you so and left you to voice of all that time, again, I didn't hear it. Oh, if you asked me to do something that was outside of my framework of ethics or Honor, I would have to leave. And there goes all that time, and all your money. And any progress that's may get stalled, while you look for my replacement. Neither one of us wants that to happen. So I'd like to have this conversation right now.Yonason Goldson:
It's amazing how much being upfront, communicating clearly. Just diffuses so many potential problems. Yeah, you don't want to have those conversations? Why are you? Why are we so reluctant to have those conversations were afraid, I guess, are afraid of being uncomfortable and making other people uncomfortable, I could blow the contract, I can't even get fired from it cuz I blow it.Margarita Gurri:
If I don't even I didn't. Some people just don't know how to have the conversation. And don't understand the power, they have to influence the work and the outcomes and the parameters. as a consultant or speaker, or coach or trainer. We have a lot of power, as inside or outside professionals, you know,Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski:
were the ones that provide, as they like to say, new eyesMargarita Gurri:
without ego. And I think there's also ignorance, ego and fear, I think are the things I see people having trouble with. And also the objectivityYonason Goldson:
of just somebody who's not emotionally involved in the choices or the outcome.Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski:
Well, there there is also one other thing, the answers that work for me, the phrases that I use that work for me, I had to stop somebody from taking it down as if they were taking dictation. And I said, just have that coming out of you wouldn't be, it wouldn't sound like you, it wouldn't be genuine. And everybody likes to say, well, you must be your authentic self. I like to say genuine self. It wouldn't be genuinely who you are, where you're coming from. So by all means, take notes. That's why I answer your questions. But don't ever think that you have to spit out what Kimi said in class.Margarita Gurri:
I think that's very thoughtfully said. My friend Sue, who is a brilliant consultant. And she's a she's invented something that project managers need to know about. I'm gonna put make it so that she can, she can speak. But she had something to say. And then I'll ask her to tell us about her invention. I think some people might be concerned about being perceived as negatively minded, and or too structured narrowminded going into an engagement. And that is that fear of how we're presenting ourselves. And yet, nothing that Kimi said, made her look anything but supremely competent to be of service. She's got it down the way. It does sound authentic. And I think it's okay for people to go through and, and take notes about how Kimi says, as long as then they make it their own somehow, you know, exactly, but I think it's not about template from which to start. So to talk to us about the, your invention very briefly. And then let's talk about the ethics of you know, like introducing new ideas and, and things that are still in a beta phase of testing and stuff like that. Alright, so take it away.Unknown:
You're okay, Rabbi, You You mentioned something earlier about sort of micro managing never works kind of thing. And I agree with that, if it's if it's being applied at at a higher level, but I think that so many businesses, and this is kind of the core of, of the invention that I'm working on is so many businesses rely on so many, sort of tedious and detailed and methodical tasks and activities that that need to happen sort of at the right time in the right place, and happened correctly, in order for their larger vision to be done. delivered, whether it's a product or a service, you know, every every company has a giant stack of procedure manuals that they rely on that they've spent millions developing as a way to achieve that vision. In other words, if we carefully execute all of these things on these 16 feet thick manuals, then our chickens service are our, you know, cruise line, our hospital will, will deliver as we've envisioned, and we're, I think that there's quite a gap. And what I'm trying to achieve with this invention is is basically helping sort of a middle manager, leader, supervisor level people that are sort of expected to have all the skill sets in order to translate that giant stack of manuals into action by the individual workers that have to accomplish all of those tasks. You mentioned the thing about the airport in the whole thing. And I'm thinking that certainly isn't something that would be on the list of the tasks to be done as to how to handle that differently, but, but rather, everything that supports that the vacuuming the trash, taking out the restroom, cleaning, the food service, all of those things to really hum and work in a high level requires all this detailed work. So I'm developing a platform that then allows basically training tying the trio together, which I think is key to driving performance, the training, the which I value, to some extent, I don't think that training is the answer to every non performance issue, but training and then a work task assignment kind of thing. And then the system selecting things for follow up inspection by the supervisors, and it works kind of as a three module trio to drive that performance and help. Kind of, as I said earlier, translate that load of how do we keep our facility clean? How often does it have to happen? who's supposed to do? Who did I ask to do that? All those things are taken out of the loop. So I'm working on the final pieces of that now. And that's kind of its driving performance through kind of a methodology that I've developed. Oh, that sounds awesome. Can I have one, please? Absolutely. I want one to my compliance issue. It's, it's a fascinating thing. I've done quite a bit of project management and also work with Porsche consulting in the lean group that they have, I spent several months with them. So I'm very familiar with that whole methodology. And in school of thought, and I completely agree with your earlier statement, give me about it's that that whole mentality is really not part of project management. Project Management is the execution in my mind of the results of the study. That is the other part, you have to figure out what's the best way to do it, once that's happening, then make that happen through project management, and actually through through my Oculus software, as well, once you've decided what you really want to do, let's help you get that done in the most efficient way possible, in the most consistent way possible.Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski:
That's wonderful. I mean, there are so many pieces of work that help an organization go on a day to day just getting to the end of the week, that need to absolutely happen, but should not require the kind of oversight that frequently we have a person doing. And I like the fact that you pointed out there are exceptions, that that gate agent was dealing with an exception. And there are always going to be things happening. That's why risk management's such a big deal for all of us, frankly, but that you can actually deal with those so much easier if you're not being being monopolized by the minutiae. Who I like that phrase. That is a meme.Margarita Gurri:
That is a good meme. It's also a good keynote. Oh, yes, you will be excellent. It's very nice. I like it. You know, we'veYonason Goldson:
talked before about decision fatigue, that if we have to make too many decisions, by the end of the day, we are depleted. And then something big comes along, and really competent people can do really stupid things, because they've just worn out their, the elasticity of their brains. Yeah, so the more that we can relegate to a kind of automatic system, whether it's technological or just behavioral, the more we are protecting ourselves against what could go wrong. When we have to face those big decisions.Margarita Gurri:
And I value key me so much what you do, because I believe that when people are calm and have a system like what you offer a system for thinking and behaving in For asking questions for staying on top of things, I think people calm down enough, then their brains can think about ethics because somehow, in a crisis ethics go out the window, not for everyone, but pretty frequently. So I love the idea that you provide the system for calm. So here's what I'm gonna do I want the robot to do the word of the day. And then when we come back, I want you to think about is what is one last thing you want to leave people with? Rabbi, sir, the word of the day?Yonason Goldson:
Well, the word of the day, you will immediately see the relevance to our conversation. And the word is m thick. Tony, do I need to defineMargarita Gurri:
that? I put it in the chat, but you need to say it again. And then define it again.Yonason Goldson:
m victini. It was the coalition of Greek city states that were folk that had a focal point of the Oracle of Delphi. Ah, now why is that relevant? Because it's it's actually expanded to a broader system, where you have groups of people, maybe tribes, or individuals who are united, not by ethnicity, not by geography, but by a common set of higher values. And I think that just fits perfectly with your vision. Kimi of the project manager is somebody who creates that vision, that sense of purpose, that sense of meaning, that collaborative spirit that brings us together, because we have a common goal. And we feel committed to each other. Because we're committed to the same ideals.Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski:
Yes, but also too, as Oh, my goodness, I'm so embarrassed, I just forgot the other lady's name. Sue, Sue, how can you forget that, as Sue had mentioned, and, you know, eliminating all of those those other tasks and tying in with decision fatigue, and if I may say, so, I hate to admit it, video conferencing fatigue. The reason I call it the tyranny of the urgent is because if somebody is pounding on your head, and they won't stop until you deliver what they want, then you're not paying attention to your inner compass, you are paying attention to get them to stop pounding on your head with the two by four, they've gotten their hands. And being able to refer to those as a commonly held set of principles. That's what leadership driven project management is all about. It's not lean. And Sue, I had I done some work with extreme lean product development, that is an amazingly pressure intensive environment in get great work done. But you know, there's a lot of pressure in it. And the thing that never changes, whether you're using lean or six sigma, or agile or predictive is this as a project leader, who happens to also be a project manager, you're not gonna get anything done by yourself. You need your team. So you have a responsibility to create a culture for them. That makes it easier for them to deliver, and to deliver beautifully and to not lose their minds while they're doing it.Yonason Goldson:
And, you know, in principle, it's simple. It's obvious. Well practice, it's a lot more complicated.Margarita Gurri:
Simple doesn't mean easy. father always said that simple, not easy. So there's a difference. A difference you see with push ups. Push ups are incredibly simple. But they're not easy. No, no, they are not. I like your pup. Ah, yeah. Yeah, he was a he was a smart guy. So Doctor, do you have a last word for us before we adjourn? Yes. So one last word. And I'm gonna say something I had neglected to say. Sue's company's called the Oculus 1000. And eventually, they'll get up to 5000. They have their different levels that they're putting out anyone who's interested. And Kimi, I'm going to connect the two of you because she is a brilliant mind your brilliant mind. You both know how to help people be on top of stuff so. So the bottom line is for the final word of the day is we've been incredibly delighted to have Kimi Kido su zemsky. Here The whole idea of tough decisions as a leader is what the rabbi and I grapple with all the time. And we've defined that anybody who's participating in anything as a leader, whether you're the official leader, unofficial leader, or the new schlub on the job, you're still a leader. And everyone has to have accountability. The thing, my biggest takeaway from this isn't any of the things you said, to me, it's more how you said it. I love your sense of ethical communication, and ethical limits setting. That's something many people don't talk about. And they certainly don't understand. And that you would then after a contract is agreed upon before the final word, then talk about how you work and what you won't do and will do. That is so incredibly important. Because as the rabbi had said, it stops all sorts of problems later on, right? It's kind of it's like before you get married, it'd be nice to know certain things, right. And I think a contract isn't quite a marriage, but it is an important agreement. So I urge everyone to look at. I put all the links to find Kimi, let me put them again. She has a Facebook group. That's interesting for project management. It looks like she just started it. She has a website or email and her LinkedIn profiles. I put them there. please do join with her. And as you have questions, let us know Kimi and rabbi, and Malcolm and Sue. Thank you all for joining us. It's always an honor and never anything but amazing for me to be participating in this. It is, I think, such a fun thing to do and so important. Thank you all. Thank you.