#23 Rosemary Ravinal – show up as the real you
Is there a difference between filtering and misrepresenting?
Is it dishonest to use a virtual background?
What message do I send if I show up on Zoom in my pajamas?
These and other urgently relevant questions will be answered when Zoom mastery expert Rosemary Ravinal joins The Rabbi and the Shrink.
Authenticity can make or break our careers, our reputations, and you know how difficult it is to fix them once they are broken. So the stakes are very high.
When COVID began, we felt it was temporary and didn’t make much effort:
kids running around … somebody's lawn mowing the lawn… I'm in my sweats… I haven't even combed my hair.
A year later, we're still doing it, and now we’re going into in person meetings again.
It's like creating a set. But the authenticity part is that that you create, that really reflects who you are, as a person with like your company's values
Am I being somewhat hypocritical if I set standards or I espouse standards that I'm not, I haven't reached yet? Or if I filter elements of myself, because I don't feel that they're attractive? Is that inauthentic?
How would you show up to a physical meeting? Would you show up with running shorts? You would be respectful to the people with whom you're meeting by being appropriate to the occasion.
It's so easy to lie when you don't look at the person in the eye. An example would be, you know, I hear from friends who are using online dating apps. And I might hear from a gentleman who would say, you know, women just don't put their real photos on there. Not only do they lie about their ages, but they don't use current photos.
If you're going to show up in a video meeting, you need to have your camera on and have an executive presence on virtual calls. Otherwise, it shows a lack of respect for the other people that you're not showing up as you really are.
Anything we can do to make ourselves more committed to reaching a higher ideal, I think is really the essence of authenticity.
You want to have a sense of personality, warmth. So for example, I encourage people to have some hints and cues about their passion. If you're a baseball fan, if you love to play guitar; you might have some movie posters behind you.
It goes to trust, right? Because if you are consistent, every time it builds trust.
I'm talking about the authenticity of the that we present. I think that there's a challenge we have today we see it in the media, we see it really all over the place. The relationship between the message and the messenger.
Check your facts, research, because we often say things that someone said, so let's say the rabbi and I make up a false fact. And then you repeat it, and then they repeat it. And pretty soon, we take it as truth.
Respecting people is not that doesn't mean that we have to agree with everybody. We can be forceful at times, in expressing our thoughts and our points of view, and still have it done with civility with respect and with an openness to hear the other side.
The word of the day is stultify, which means to cause a loss of enthusiasm, often, through ridicule, or causing embarrassment.
Studies have shown that people believe that sarcastic people are more intelligent, really, and that's a really troublesome fact to me, because it encourages us to be sarcastic. I'm using a rhetorical device to discredit the speaker to discredit the idea without actually engaging.
I urge everyone to think about how are you presenting yourself in the images, the sounds, the words, the facts.
Welcome to the rabbi and the shrink. This is Dr. Margarita Gurri Dr. Red shoe, and my very favorite Rabbi Yonason Goldson. Thank you, Rabbi for always being with us. And today we're super psyched. We have with us, Rosemary Ravinal. And she is an international consultant. She was in the world of broadcasting. She's been all over and I'll tell you more about it. But welcome, rosemary, thanks for being here. It's really a delight. Thank you. The delight is ours or the audiences today. Here's, she has been with Univision, she has been the spokesperson for Fortune 100 companies. She's worked with profit and nonprofit all in the United States and the Hispanic countries in Latin America. She left Univision and now what she's doing is using all of her expertise to help all of us figure out how to present ourselves powerfully and authentically, in our own little squares. Rosemary, so what does ethics have to do with presenting oneself on zoom?Rosemary Ravinal:
It has everything to do with presenting ourselves on zoom or whatever video platform you choose. Because it's about our authenticity, how we show up, can make or break our careers, our reputations, and you know how difficult it is to fix them once they are broken. So this is really high stakes. Every time we turn on our cameras, and join a meeting we are we are putting out our best selves. So there's a lot of ethics involved in that.Margarita Gurri:
So what are some of the mistakes that you see people making that harm their brand, and their authenticity, their credibility? Sure.Rosemary Ravinal:
If we go back to last year, when people were looking at this, as you know, I'm talking about lockdown as a temporary thing, right? Oh, I'm just gonna turn on the camera. There's kids running around in the background. You know, there's somebody's lawn mowing the lawn, I'm in my sweats. I haven't even combed my hair today, because I've had back to back meetings, there was a sense of, of this being temporary, so that there was very little attention paid to the quality of the connection, the way you show up what you're saying with your nonverbal language, in addition to how you energetically connect with others through the camera, so it was almost taken as No, this will pass soon, we'll be getting in our cars or are going to work, you know, in offices again. So we're not going to bother doing much to improve the way we are interacting. Lo and behold, a year later, we're still doing it. And now there is a lot more involved, because we're going back into mixed settings where people are physically co located, in addition to those who are working remotely. So how we come across how we connect with others, how we can we energize meetings in a way that everyone feels this equitable, that everyone has a voice, and that the information that is shared is relevant, it's concise, it's it's coherent, it's not all of the ethical considerations for communication are really magnified in the settingYonason Goldson:
your mind me raspberry, than if you've ever seen a movie of a production company making a movie. And you see the fascinating Tell me more. You know, very often if you get if you get a DVD, they still have those. There'll be extras and some of the extras are how they made the movie. So you'll see a wide shot, and you'll see the set as a set. And it looks artificial. And you wonder, how, how could this possibly be convincing? And then when you watch the movie, it looks absolutely real. And it's always intrigued me that there is this almost an element of deception in creating an illusion of reality. And so when we talking about being authentic, you were just talking about the backgrounds and what's going on behind us as cleaning up the distractions cleaning out the clutter. Is it How is it that we can somehow contrive to be authentic? It seems a little bit like a contradiction in terms. Sure.Rosemary Ravinal:
It is. You're right. We have grown up and I think you know, this goes back to The very early days of not only television, but but film, when we became accustomed to seeing things in a rectangle, right, that was how we perceive the world. So how we saw the world life on a screen is the way we related to the broader human experience. And now we find out but we were not the protagonist, we were not in that rectangle. We were observers. And now we are the actors were in the rectangle. So my God, what do I do? How do I interact with these, you know, these these parameters? How do I show up? How do I speak? How do I gesture How do I use the nonverbal not only the nonverbal of my gesturing in my, in my my facial expressions, the the nodding the hands, the body, but everything in my shot speaks to who I am. So in a way, it's like creating a set. But the authenticity part is that that you create, you populate the rectangle with things that are true to who you are, that are true to your brand, that really reflect who you are, as a person with like your company's values, your company's products, there are all kinds, there's multiple, multiple ways of really using the space to tell another story. Because you know that more than 60% of the way the human brain perceives information or data is nonverbal. It's It's It's really the visual that carries a greater weight. I think it even goes up to 90% of the way we process data is more acutely focused on the visual than the auditory. So the visual impact of how we show up is crucial. And people need to step up and recognize that it's in their control what they can do with it.Yonason Goldson:
Yeah, that's fine. No, it's just one of the follow up the data that I were talking before we came on about the the idea of, in some ways, we want to be true to ourselves. At the same time, there may be aspects of ourselves that we aren't completely comfortable with, or we may have aspirations that we want to achieve. But we're not there yet. You know, today, we're in a culture that's very sensitive about hypocrisy, especially young people. Am I being somewhat hypocritical if I set standards or I espouse standards that I'm not, I haven't reached yet? Or if I filter elements of myself, because I don't feel that they're attractive? Is that inauthentic? Well,Rosemary Ravinal:
how would you show up to a physical meeting? Would you show up with running shorts? What unshaven? Well, you don't shave anyway, grab by. But But yeah, okay. So how would you show up to a physical meeting, I mean, it's the same thing you wouldn't show up, Ill groomed right? Under dressed, you would be respectful to the people with whom you're meeting by being appropriate to the occasion. So there is the end. And there, there are some liberties we can take when we control we manipulate how we show up in the rectangle. But I would rather go to the to the fact that people don't use it, even if people want to use a virtual screen to say, Oh, I'm in Paris, look at this, I have the Eiffel Tower behind me. The minute I move around, you'll see that I'm not necessarily there. Because it's going to show that I'm just a an image in front of another image, and is going to give me away so you can pretend. But I wouldn't tell you if I had Paris in my background, I wouldn't pretend that I'm in Paris, I'd say hey, I didn't know what else to put here. But I just thought it was a nice image. Because we're going to be talking about something that's related to French bread, whatever it is, you follow, but you can you can be playful with it. You can be more whimsical, because there are so many tools available now. And going forward to there's things like holograms, and there's there's ways of creating, putting us in different locations. Like we're actually sitting in a chair, in Microsoft Teams even even even zoom. Most of the software companies are stepping up and saying, oh, we're going to create this. It's almost like being there. We're going to create the sensory thing where like you, you're in the chair in the conference room. So there's more of that coming in. I think it will evolve as more people recognize that you don't necessarily have to be in your location in order to get the work done. You can have a flexible schedule so that people can be more respectful of their obligations to to family, to children to eldercare.Yonason Goldson:
We are different. We are job sorry, doctors. One final point here if I may. We are different people in different contexts and the context really determines how we show upMargarita Gurri:
Right, absolutely. Be beyond that issue of people lying. That's one of my pet peeves people pretending they're in their yachts, when we know they're in their bathroom. And what's wrong with being in a bathroom, if that's the best room for your family, you know, the sound may not be the best. But you know, I think reality is something that authentic leaders work with. Beyond that, you're you're an expert in human nature, you're an expert, and how people present themselves in various broadcasting formats. Here's one of the things I wanted you to address. I've been disheartened. And I know the rabbi has been to and all of our loyal listeners, why is it that people feel that it's okay to misrepresent facts in a more and more on their little screens? In order to make a point or to be right? What what happens to the truth, when somehow we're not face to face?Rosemary Ravinal:
It's so easy to lie when you don't look at the person in the eye. I'm looking at a camera, and I am envisioning that you are inside that camera. But you're really not. I don't I'm not as accountable. Because I don't have to face up. There is more distance between us. Yes. And so therefore I can take liberties to stretch the truth. An example would be, you know, I hear from friends who are using online dating apps. And I might hear from a gentleman who would say, you know, women just don't put their real photos on there. Not only do they lie about their ages, but they don't use current photos, I went on a dinner date, and the person who walked past my table look nothing like the person, you know, whose profile I liked. And he was highly disappointing. And obviously, the the whatever possible relationship was there sort of eroded, because it was distressed, you lie to me, you know, you look grossly different from the way you appear in your profile. So already, it's it's ruptured, right. So but it's so easy to create personas, and social media has encouraged us to create personas that are fantasy, because that's the way you know, the avatars that we create for ourselves. So there's there's a great deal, I think of harm has been done by overuse of social media where we can hide behind those profiles.Yonason Goldson:
I think there's, there's an element of what you mentioned that, in some ways here in this context, there's a big advantages, what easier to be a man, you know, I run my hands through my hair. Quite much straight my tie, and I'm done. And I know that I've been in meetings where people sometimes have their pictures up instead of their instead of their, the cameras on. And it's like, Who were these are two different people. I mean, clearly, some of these photos are taken professionally. And they may be several years old. And they look nothing like the people on the screen. And it is disconcerting. It is feeling that you really aren't presenting yourself in a way and I can understand why it why it happens. But sort of, it's just awkward.Margarita Gurri:
It is one of my favorite cartoons as a child was the Jetsons. And one of my favorite things is Judy Jetson had this thing that she would put up, she had the video phones, video calls, and she would put up this image of her face. That was all made up and stuff. And in real life, her hair was a mess, and she didn't have lipstick on or whatever. And I think that that's kind of where we are. We also have filters now in zoom, where you can put eyebrows in a beard and, and and change the light and all sorts of things. And the whole point is how to present our best self. And I think rosemary, see, I've heard you talk about that. The point is to represent your best self not to lie, correct?Rosemary Ravinal:
Yes. Yeah. Wherever you talk about profile photos, and everyone should have one because otherwise what will be in the blank, the blank tile I should say is just your name or phone number. But if you're going to show up in a video meeting, you need to have your camera on and I stress this to my clients who call on me for advice on how to run better meetings and how to do team building and how to have executive presence on virtual calls. You've got to turn your camera on because otherwise and I've done this to say if you can turn on your camera for some really significant reason. Then get off the call. Get off the call me You don't belong here unless we can participate fully, that this one. Secondly, it's, by the way, there's nothing wrong with audio only calls we've been. We've survived for decades with teleconferences, right. And we were able to get things accomplished. But if you're going to do a video call, you turn on your camera. The other thing about profile photos, and this always just really stumps me how people can use old photos, all photos, meaning old photos significantly different from the way they look. Now. I mean, you can go into a Walgreens and have a photo taken for $10 a passport picture, let's say but you can. In other words, we have iPhones that have three cameras, right. And all of these wonderful features for taking portraits, you can have a current portrait taken and use a current photo. Even there's no need to go with too expensive of photo studio. That's always an option. But what I'm saying is is sloppy, right is careless. And to me, it shows a lot of disrespect, self, lack of respect and lack of respect for the other people that you're not showing up as you really are.Margarita Gurri:
So Charlotte brings up a great point, though, with COVID. Not everyone's been able to tame their hair with with professional hairdresser. Like I cut my own hair. And I always wonder, you know, sometimes it turns out better than others. This is my COVID gut. And so some people, though, have harder hair to manage. And so they have these beautiful lions means or these froze, or, you know, it's like, what they want or don't want. And so I'm seeing that some people are just embarrassed to present themselves on camera, which goes to Malcolm's question is, is it rude? Which you addressed a little bit to go on without your camera? And or microphone? Is it actually rude? If it's a video meeting, you say that it's not optimal. But is it rude?Rosemary Ravinal:
it's tremendously rude? tremendously, I would ask that person to to, to, to get off the call, get off the call. I mean, if you're in a webinar, of course we know was different. We don't see net expected to see the people who have joined as as audience. But if you are asked to be in a meeting, and you are asked to contribute, and you have a stake in the outcome, or is a forum for discussion, and you're you're you're expected to weigh in on something, you've got to show up, you have to you can be a little bit ingenious about the way you do your hair, no one expects you to be, you know, salon ready. But you at least you can wear something attractive. beyond that. We know from decades of studies in particularly in telemarketing, that if your dress for success, you will come up through your voice, you will be more confident. If you are embodying the interview suit that you're wearing during a a remote interview, a video interview, you will be much more like you are in a professional setting. So it has tremendous psychological advantages if you are dressed for the part. So we realize it but it will come through in your vocal quality and in your body language.Margarita Gurri:
And I love that the rabbi always puts on his jacket, he's got a shirt, his tie his jacket, he always looks ready for professional engagement. And I love him.Yonason Goldson:
I mean, I wear ties seven days a week. And I do it because if I present myself to myself as a professional, I mean, I work in my home office all day. It's really easy to find things to do the art work. And so anything I can do to convince myself that I need to be professional is going to help me. But I really love the message here as Marie that. Yeah. In other words, I am, I want to be the vet the best version of myself. And there's nothing inauthentic about that. It's having standards that's wanting to be refined, it's wanting to approve every day. And anything we can do to make ourselves more committed to reaching a higher ideal, I think is is really the the essence of authenticity.Margarita Gurri:
I would agree with that Mary points out that she knows a realtor who's been using the same photo for 25 years. I'm not sure I would be comfortable doing business, whether it's at a dating app or professional business with someone who doesn't take the time to love themselves as they are now. Right. True. True is not just about lying. It's we want to be with people who love themselves and who respect themselves and others enough to not waste any energy. On a lie, or, or a pretense, correct?Rosemary Ravinal:
Yep. And it goes to the fact that some people might hide behind being digitally, inept, right? Oh, I don't know how to work this or this too complicated. But you know, it's that's all just, you know, nonsense because you don't have to be a digital native. You can you can learn. And you know, I have I have a good friend who was also a PR professional who teaches seniors I mean, seniors, meaning people in the 70s, and 80s, and 90s, how to use zoom as a way to build their communities and feel more connected to the world. And they step up, they learn, they learn how to turn their cameras on the sound and how to how to do this and how to do chats. And they know because it's possible to learn. I mean, there's no barriers, really, there's no barriers to doing this.Margarita Gurri:
It's a new culture, really, the virtual culture, we have a lovely compliment for you rosemary, are you ready? Sure. Um, I especially liked the background, full of flowers, and that you look like a flower as well.Rosemary Ravinal:
Thank you, thank you. But you know, I curate this it's in and I have things on casters. So the plant to to my, to my left is is on casters, I move it around. And the sunflowers have become a sort of a, a brand for me, because I started using them early on and people when I don't use him say, Well, what are your sunflowers? When I start flowers, I think of you rosemary. And I don't know if I started it. But I've seen a lot of some flowers around on a network cable news. So maybe I started something there, they're big, they're bold, they're very colorful, they hold up on on these kinds of video. Whether it be you know, sharp or or not it the color really comes through. So everything's rolling around. So it's almost like a set. So I move things around. Because if I if I didn't, I wouldn't be able to move very much without tripping on something. But it's but I curated, I set up my camera, make sure that the lights are good that I'm centered. And it takes just five minutes to make sure that that's a stem because when I sit here, I'm ready to be as professional as I can be. So that that's why Thank you.Margarita Gurri:
And you have also taught everyone else how to curate this. There's the zoom score, that you've trademarked with the 10 essential elements of professional video meetings. Could you please explain to us how we can all get a top zoom score, yourRosemary Ravinal:
there are certain essentials. So you have to have your camera on, you have to be well lit and well framed, there's still so many people who show up with light behind them. So what happens when you're backlit, then you're in shadow. And you can't be seen people don't realize that. Or you have to have the right eye level right eye angles to the unit looking down at the lens or looking up, you're straight on as if we were having a face to face conversation. You want to have good quality sound you want to be heard and not have this tinny kind of echoey sound that's so common with the early days of zoom, you want to have a staging and styling things that are appropriate to what you mean to say. Right so that it is is reflecting of who you are. And and you want to have a sense of personality, warmth. So for example, I encourage people to have some hints and cues about their passion. If you're a baseball fan, if you love to play guitar, if you if your music, if you have favorite films, you might have some movie posters behind you. They work beautifully to start conversations. So you may see someone who has a Detroit Tigers mug or something. And he's Oh, I love that team is my favorite team. And then you have reminiscences about different games and it starts a human conversation. So all those things are important. So there's there's 10 different factors from the technology to the way you interact with the camera that basically establish a baseline. But first and foremost, you've got to show up you have to have your camera on. And you have to know how to work the technology so that you're not on mute, right so that you are not clumsy. And you'd when you show up, you show up as your best.Yonason Goldson:
You know, we all we all know this because it's so much of a culture, the culture now talking about branding. And really the way we appear on the screen is part of how we brand ourselves. If I'm incompetent with the technology, I'm making a statement about my own capacity. But beyond that, you know you mentioned that the the sunflowers people ask you about them if they're not there. And our friend Dave Bricker told me and if I get the story wrong, he'll correct me that he is Foti his headshot is one his glasses and tipping them like this. And those happen to be his reading glasses. And so when he shows up without the glasses, people ask him, Where are your glasses? Because they've come to identify nobodies. He said he actually got to had to get a pair of glasses that weren't corrected, so that he would be true to his own brand. Now, I don't see that as being deceptive or just the lands out. So it doesn't. They have no right. Right? No lens? Yeah, yeah, that's great. That's not again, we come back to this idea that it's not, it's not being deceptive. It's, it's having a certain persona, that is the best possible representation of who I truly am. Without deceit without being dishonest.Rosemary Ravinal:
Right? And it goes to trust, right? Because if you are consistent, every time it builds trust, Hey, I know what I'm going to get. You know, it's like buying that product. You know, when you open the I can't even think about the Ritz cracker box, you know, you're going to get a risk cracker in a you know, in a cylindrical thing. And it's going to taste a certain way, right? But if they change it on you, and they make it, you know, a different different form factor, then you're going to sit, does this really it? I mean, it's this thing of the brand up and buying for 50 years. So it, it breaks theMargarita Gurri:
continuity. It does. Well, everyone who's listening, Rosemary wrote a book, The joy of thinking out loud, and she is got a master's degree in global strategic communication. What questions do you have for this woman who is uniquely positioned to help you shine in your own little Hollywood square? What questions do you have for her? Oh, we're waiting. We talked about communication. TheRosemary Ravinal:
way you know, I wanted to say about about what Margarita just did. I encourage people that whenever you join one of these sessions, always make yourself your presence known. So if there's a queue, a q&a box, if there's a chat box, simply just put this is Rosemary from Miami Good to be here. Just say present. Even if you don't have a question, just state who you are. Because that just creates a sense of the room, we have opened up the room, you know that, you know, how are you from Tucson is here, whatever, I'm just making this up, in the end that you have a sense of you can visualize all these points on a map and that you're there with all these people. It gives you a sense of community. And so whatever meeting you join, I always make it a point, even if I don't have a relevant question, just say, Thank you. That was great. That was interesting. I'm so glad to be here. And make it say present. So stay present. And these platforms allow you to stay present in different ways.Margarita Gurri:
And I have to say, our live viewers every Tuesday at 1230. Our live viewers who show up are very good at making their presence known, but in not an obnoxious manner. So one of the ways some people make the precious no zones known as active Narcissus, where they have to comment on everything and, and take up more of the writing softer while you can't even you see their name and you roll your eyes. So our guys here, our listeners are like the best. They They must have read your book. And God, I give them a good zoom score on that. So you're gonna have questions for for this genius Hmm. She is positioned as a brand expert, helping people present themselves with public relations. SoRosemary Ravinal:
people don't have questions, the the number one question I get is, should I use a virtual background? And do I need a green screen? The question was, if you're going to use a virtual background, use a green screen. And there are green screens available that are under $50. And you can attach to the back of your chair. And you can move it around to different places, depending where you are. But don't don't take it for granted. Because when you start to move around in that in that setting, you will look like a an amoeba because it's very rare that you can find your really neat, crisp image when you're using a virtual background.Margarita Gurri:
Yeah, otherwise the hand disappears. And that's kind of awkward. Sue has a question for you. How do you feel about recording calls?Rosemary Ravinal:
Oh, recording calls? Yeah. How do I feel about it? Well, I don't do it without permission. So when I do a lead a workshop, I asked for permission. And I'm very careful about that because I don't want to be repurposing the content and then have people's Images likeness without their authorization. recording it for training purposes, I think is essential because it acts as a as a visual record of what happened. And then it allows people who are not able to attend to, you know, to benefit from the information.Margarita Gurri:
And what is the best way to advise people ahead of time, like in our waiting room, we have that that you're going to be recorded. If somebody comes in late, they don't necessarily get the waiting room. But I did set the settings so that anyone will get the message that we're recording, I don't know they get it. Whoever came in late, please put in the chat. If you did get noticed that we're recording just to make sure I did that. Right. So what is the best way to let people know what you're doing with the content?Rosemary Ravinal:
Well, if you see my name at the bottom of my rectangle, UPC, Rosemary rabanal is my name. And that's my website, Rosemary Ravenel comm you can opt in to receive my weekly newsletter. And to be informed as part of my inner circle of upcoming free workshops, I am doing at least one a month, which is an open forum where people to come and ask questions about how to improve their zoom score. And then I do a lot of private small teams corporate one on one with executives who need to polish up their public speaking on online. So that's the kind of work and I do it in both English and Spanish, by the way. So if you if you follow me, you'll find all my social links, when you go to my website, you will be the first to receive information about what I'm doing like today, I put out a newsletter that goes back to the fundamentals of public speaking, which is about word whiskers and fillers. They are well, you know, it's like, and all of these that we use repeatedly. And people don't realize it. And it's just taking a lot of the it just takes us the oxygen from the room really, when you use them that often. And we all use them in some way or another. It's just not using them a lot.Margarita Gurri:
So Mary wants to know, have you ever used artificial intelligence software to record and evaluate meeting content? No,Rosemary Ravinal:
I haven't. I know it exists. And I know the vendors who are doing great work in this area. But no, it's there's no there's no need for me, and perhaps my clients at some point will need it. But know that that is that is important in some circles, and the technology exists and is very affordable.Yonason Goldson:
I can circle back around for a second, I'm talking about the the authenticity of the that we present. I think that there's a challenge we have today we see it in the media, we see it really all over the place. The relationship between the message and the messenger. And that we are we see that people are quick to discredit a message because of the messenger. And that it doesn't matter how I articulate, articulate the messages. Once I don't give credibility to the person who's saying it. We see people just shut down. And and just in the headlines the last couple of days. And you know, we don't we don't get political here. But there has been increasing discussion of evidence that COVID actually came out of a Chinese lab. Now whether or not did what they decided eventually. But it wasn't that long ago, when individuals who express that idea were ridiculed were called conspiracy conspiracy theorists. We have to be willing, don't we, and we talked about this a little bit before, you have to be willing to entertain points of view that may not appeal to us. Right, we may be able to willing to hear people that we don't like that are coming from where we're coming from, if we're going to be true, if we're gonna be committed to truth, then we have to allow that communication go back and forth, regardless of where it's coming from.Rosemary Ravinal:
It is a tentative ethical communication, that that we respect different points of view, and that we adhere to credibility to, to to the truth of what we say, but we have to be accepting of different different life experiences different political inclinations. In other words, not everyone is like us, but we also have to develop an empathy muscle, so that we can understand where people are coming from, because that helps us better understand and respect their worldview. And that ultimately, I think, is how we can all coalesce and, and and then be a better society. But no, but But what your question a rabbi points to the, you know, the Greek origins of rhetoric, right ethos, pathos, and logos, you know, the the three elements of, of ethos being appealing to, to credibility to truth. And then path is being connected to the emotion part and then logo being into, into what we say, into logic to the logic of it. So it's a no, these are the first of the three, the three pillars of good communication.Margarita Gurri:
Well, I'm Donna volador, who was the president of National Speakers Association, and he's in on chapter Michigan. One of the things he's calling everyone who speaks and now anyone, whether it's on a big stage or a little square, check your facts, research, because we often say things that someone said, so let's say the rabbi and I make up a false fact. And then you repeat it, and then they repeat it. And pretty soon, we take it as truth. And whether it's on purpose or not, I think that we have interfered with credibility by sloppiness of assuming someone else is the arbiter of truth or facts.Yonason Goldson:
and respect, respecting people is not that doesn't mean that we have to agree with everybody. We can be firm in our positions. We can be, you know, forceful at times, in expressing our thoughts and our points of view, and still have it done with civility with respect and with an openness to hear the other side. Because sometimes we don't have our facts straight. Sometimes we don't have all the information.Margarita Gurri:
Or we think we do but have been sloppy. Good comment, that she loved what you had to say, Rabbi, about minority voices being discredited for years, because they found no credibility by virtue of being minorities and different. And I think that rosemary, you made that point very well. So now I think we're to the point where we have the word of the day rabbi.Yonason Goldson:
The word of the day is stultify. stultifying means to cause a loss of enthusiasm, often, through ridicule, or causing embarrassment, I think speaks very much to what we were just talking about. If I don't agree, or like a point of view that somebody else presents, I can I can run them down. I can be we've talked about sarcasm before. And you know, studies have shown that people believe that sarcastic people are more intelligent, really, and that's a really troublesome fact to me, because it encourages us to be sarcastic. And and not necessarily addressing the content of the message at all. I'm using a rhetorical device to discredit the speaker to discredit the idea without actually engaging. So we should be careful not to be stultifying. Just because we may not immediately recognize the value of others or their ideas.Margarita Gurri:
I had to write that one down Spotify. Love it. So I read it myself, and I put it in the chat. The definition. So rosemary, we've been talking and clearly you're a credible person, I think you have so much to offer, I think everyone should go to your website, I put the link in the chat, I'm going to put it in again, just now. You have on demand, on demand courses, you have all sorts of offerings. What What is the final call to action or word of wisdom for our listeners everywhere.Rosemary Ravinal:
To continue to learn the ple have a philosophy of continuous learning. Every time you initiate a call or participate in a poll, try to do it a little bit better each time. Try to find that sweet spot where you know that you're showing up as your best. Play around with different colors. For example, you know, there's there's with different colors of colors that show up well on camera and others that don't find find that place where you can sit where you have good lighting, where you know that you're going to be properly showing your features and most of all that you can smile and be seen and be be real. And if you make a mistake, we will all make mistakes in this setting. I've had meetings where I've been presenting and my internet has gone down, could you you, you wait a few minutes and then you try again and you pick up where you left off. These things will happen. But most of all people want to connect with a real, real person, be as human as you can possibly be in virtualMargarita Gurri:
I can't say anything but Bravo, I, anytime I talk to rosemary, I always learn something new. And I think that this whole idea of authenticity, you'll excuse me, my dogs being authentic dog loves the UPS guy who just came to the door and my granddaughter got it. I think the whole thing for me is how did present as the rabbi said, the best version of yourself without being, feeling or presenting yourself like a liar, but just as a professional, because, as my father would say, I mean, either, my darling, my life, you don't have to be authentic. If you were authentic, you'd be picking your nose, that we want to present the best version of ourselves. And I think rosemary, you certainly teach people how to do that. So I urge everyone to think about how are you presenting yourself in the images, the sounds, the words, the facts? And what can you do to be somewhat better as Rosemary said a little bit better each time and how we connect? So when asked one last word of wisdom, though, for you, many people are shy and don't want to ever have their camera? What do you say to them? Because I think it's a real, it's easier to be in person with someone than to know what's going to be recorded and forever. Have your vintage and your voice recorded? What do you say to the shy people? How do we call them out into the light? Don't show up, don't join, don't join, really. So it's better to totally be absent than to just be a disembodied voice.Rosemary Ravinal:
It's It's like going to a dance. And you're not dancing? Right? Yeah. But you can always meet people at the punch. But maybe that's a bad example. I don't know, growing up on a ski slope and not skiing down, you know, it's like, are you here? Why are you here? Why did you register? Why'd Why did you what was the webinar is not crucial, because we can't see them and then that they're not expected, right? With it with a regular meeting. Why? Why are you? Why are you joining. Now, if it's the kind of agenda where there's more of an encouragement, if you just want to listen, that's fine. There are some people who when they set up their meeting, their settings, in other words, their parameters, they basically don't show those those people who are not on on camera who don't have their videos on, so they become basically non existent. So right there, there are ways but if you have intention of taking a party, if you have something to say, you have to use your camera, you have to show up, and you can do it with your iPhone, it doesn't have to be an iPhone 12, it can be an older model, it can be your tablet, there's so many ways of participating. And it doesn't have to be the best crisper HD, hd 4k shot, it can be just a standard clear image of you. And there you have it from an expert. I wouldn'tYonason Goldson:
say this, though, that, as someone who used to be pathologically shy, I recognize this is not the way I wanted to be. And I and I continue to consistently put myself in uncomfortable situations, all the Guru's tell us we have to get out of our comfort zones. And one way to do it is by nudging ourselves into areas that are a little uncomfortable. And if we do that gradually over time, and we suddenly discover after a while that we don't have those same impediments. And we actually have blossomed into truly more authentic and better versions of ourselves.Margarita Gurri:
Well, there you go. And I know some leaders have followed rosemary, your point of view that since they themselves were shy, they just have auditory meetings, and then everyone is on the same footing. So I think your your point about if you're, if you're going to show up, match the format of the place to represent yourself well. So that's that's a good thing to say. All right, everyone, thank you, rosemary, you're amazing. I put your website, Rosemary Robin on in in the in the chat. We will have it in our YouTube and our audio podcasts as well. And we will see everyone live next Tuesday at 1230. And you can join us on our on our Vimeo, YouTube and all our audio podcast formats. You all take care and remain ethical