#24: Giancarlo Pitocco - Reclaim Control Over Technology

How does pleasure distract us from our own unhappiness?
How is social media designed to control our minds and behaviors?
What is the formula for good digital health and well-being?

Learn the answers to these and many other essential question when digital wellbeing expert Giancarlo Pitocco joins The Rabbi and the Shrink.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/gcpofnyc/
purposeful.co

1:00 We need to reclaim control of our lives from technology

Shift your attention from being hijacked by our devices

FB has been exploited and misused by unethical players to manipulate and serve their own agendas

Do you know how much time you’re spending in front of a screen?

4:30 We don’t know what happiness is.

Pleasure often distracts us from our own unhappiness.

If you’re not dependent on external factors for happiness, you’re in control of your life and live more fully

7:00  Is it good to be easily amused?

Being delighted by simple pleasures makes the experience of living richer.

Social media is designed to keep us consuming, almost but never quite satisfied.

11:00 Are you making your future self proud by what you’re doing now?

What happens when our lives become all about comfort, convenience, and stimulation?

The purpose of the game is to play the game; the purpose is the process

We’re living in the Roman Empire

14:00 What are you doing with your life if you don’t have aspirations and values?

Pushing the boundaries of comfort and familiarity keeps us growing and truly alive

“The obstacle is the way”

We can be navigators of our lives, or we can be carried on the current.

Prioritization give us control

19:00 The five stages of digital well being

1. Attention -- you want to be the DJ of your life by placing the needle where it should be

2. Values -- Evaluate how new technology affects your relationships, your work, and your attitudes

1. we can’t eliminate technology from our lives, but we can choose how to allow it in.
2. Google “dark patterns” to learn the dangers
3. Social media is designed to make you addicted; they are selling your time and attention, turning you from a consumer into a commodity.
4. “The Attention Merchants” by Tim Wu

35:00

3. Boundaries -- without priorities, you never get to the important stuff

1. Don’t plug in your phone next to your bed
2. Buy an alarm clock

37:30

4. High quality leisure time

1. Unwind doing something projective and creative
2. Spend time with people

39:00

5. Solitude -- learn to be with yourself

The fundamental value of self-discipline.

Easy and fun entertainment seduces us from doing what we know is in our best interest.

No one changes behavior without incentive.  That’s why a clear WHY is critical to our digital health.

44:45 The word of the day: dissilient -- bursting open or springing apart (Yiddish: plotz)

We should be living with so much enthusiasm welling up inside us that we don’t seek or respond to external distraction. 

47:00 Education can be merely a form of entertainment if it doesn’t lead to action.

Go into your phone and look at screen time or digital wellbeing and see how much time you’re spending on your device.

49:00  How would your life and relationships be healthier if you spent less time on technology?

What will you do or have you done to make a positive change in your life?

Transcript

Margarita Gurri: 0:04

Welcome to the rabbi and the shrink. This is Dr. Margarita Gurri, Dr. Red shoe and my favorite Rabbi Yonason Goldson. And today we have Giancarlo Pitocco. He is here to answer the age old question of what could you accomplish if you weren't being distracted by all of your gadgets? So welcome, sir.

Giancarlo Pitocco: 0:31

Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here with you both. It just shows good judgment on our part, we're delighted.

Margarita Gurri: 0:40

So you have, you've had an interesting journey you've been you're an ex facebooker. You've been all over the place. You've done talks for the World Economic Forum, and then TEDx. And here you are, what is it that you are eager to do now? And what's your message for today?

Giancarlo Pitocco: 1:02

Oh, I'm on a mission to help us reclaim our attention from constant digital distraction, all kinds of distraction, even beyond digital. But what seems first and foremost in our lives right now is the constant gravitational pull to the devices, the screens that we carry with us, everywhere we go. And so I'm out there, trying to help people understand their relationship with technology a little better. In some ways. I feel like I'm a relationship therapist for people in their smartphones, and try to help people shift the habits that cause their attention to be completely hijacked by digital distraction, so that they can live lives that are more in line with what they actually want to hear, rather than what their phone is trying to tell them to spend their time and attention on.

Margarita Gurri: 1:52

Wow. I mean, everyone needs that now. I call my phone my precious like in Gollum. My precious. How did you get to the point of this message? I mean, I think it's an amazing message. Where the rabbi cuz I've been using the word amazing, too much. So it's a great message.

Giancarlo Pitocco: 2:13

Thank you. I was back in 2016, working at Facebook, and the US elections happened that fall. And it was a bit of a wake up call, because it became pretty clear that the platform that I was working for, and working on Facebook, was being used by bad actors to influence public opinion, perhaps influence the course of the election, therefore, the course of human events, and it was a big wake up call to the fact that social media was no longer just a fun diversion for college kids anymore. It was becoming a fundamental means of communication and influencing human behavior. And when I saw that there was a lack of responsibility from the company that I worked for, along with other social media companies, alarm bells started going off in the back of my head, and I started paying more attention to that, but also paying closer attention to my relationship with technology. And realizing though I have lived a life where I felt like I was in control. And I was using technology in my best interest. I really was spending most of my waking hours with a screen in front of my face. And when I looked at how much time I was spending, or what I was doing with that time with those devices, I didn't feel so good about it. I actually did a study over the course of two weeks, and categorized how I was spending my time and I really didn't like the results. And it was in that moment that I realized, I seem to be distracting myself from something. What am I distracting myself from? Oh, I'm distracting myself from myself in my life. So that was the key insight that kicked it into high gear where I'm like, Okay, I've got to hit a big reset button on my relationship with technology. And fast forward. As someone who's always been a voracious learner, lots of curiosity, but then a capacity for being able to relate big bodies of knowledge to people in a really digestible way, naturally turned into me developing a curriculum and moving into more of the world of coaching and speaking and consulting on this left, Facebook obviously started my own company called purposeful digital wellbeing, which is all about having a more intentional relationship with your attention, and the immense power that it has, and ultimately healthier relationship with technology and its balance in your life. Wow.

Yonason Goldson: 4:42

And it's so relevant. It just occurred to me as you were talking fellow that you know, we as a society are obsessed with happiness. We talk about it, we focus on it, I mean, it's it's in the Declaration of Independence. But my contention is that we do I don't know what we're talking about. We don't have a definition. And most of us conflate happiness with pleasure. Hmm. And my contention is that pleasure is really a distraction from being unhappy. Because this comes from what you just said in your in the name of fear your business is it comes from a sense of purpose. When I have a sense of purpose, when I believe my life is meaningful, when I feel that I'm contributing positively to the world, and fulfilling my potential that way, that gives me a feeling of persistent joy. That is, just stays with there carries me through all the highs and all the lows, and that we're actually sort of short circuiting our happiness by looking for immediate gratification. And the technologies just makes it so much easier for us to do that, and to convince ourselves that we're making ourselves happy when we're really doing just the opposite.

Giancarlo Pitocco: 6:02

Wow. so beautifully said, I agree 150%, for sure on that. It's this constant pursuit of pleasure in order to achieve happiness. That, that I challenged the whole idea that happiness needs to come from the outside. If you are dependent on external factors for your happiness, then you're not in control. And you're not really connected in here this is, this is where happiness and love and all your feelings come from. And if you can make decisions about your relationship with yourself, such that you can channel that energy without being dependent on someone else's behavior, or being in a certain setting or watching a certain TV program. life gets a lot more interesting and a lot more fun. I wish insight there for sure.

Margarita Gurri: 7:00

The other day I i've been you know, I'm a I'm an old lady now. And I love being an old lady, because you're a little invisible when you're an old lady. And I kind of like that I take advantage of it. And my family's learning blacksmithing at cheap Pontiac programs in Michigan, big fun. Someone told me something that was a joke kind of put down. They said that I was easily amused. I was made happy by little things. And I said thank you. They were trying to make it put down. So tell us about that. Why is it that me rabbi, you've got the point, pleasure and happiness. We've got happiness and little things. Why is it that that was somehow and alleged put down?

Giancarlo Pitocco: 7:46

Wow, that as a put down? Yeah. I wonder if that. I wonder if that's almost saying that you have an unsophisticated sense of humor? Yes. But do you know what i have? I've been accused of the same thing. And congratulations. Yeah, I too, don't feel like it's a bad thing. Because if you can find the joy in the simple things, then you are a happier person than the person that lives maybe more in judgment, and has this very high bar that they're measuring everything against to determine if they're going to be amused by it or not. But if you can be delighted by smaller pleasures, then you don't need this bottomless bowl of digital Doritos to munch on to satisfy that appetite or happiness or pleasure stimulation. And there I mean, there's a chemical reaction that's happening, when we're checking our phones and scrolling through posts or watching little videos online that are kind of meaningless, but seem to tickle our brains or make us laugh. It's this craving for dopamine that gets released when we do this. And the it's not a satisfying experience, it is kind of like eating junk food, where it is the flavor profile of something like the Dorito, for instance, is engineered to be balanced such that it doesn't overwhelm your taste buds after just a few chips. But it's so delightful that it keeps you munching. And that is how social media feeds are designed as well. So it's not to overwhelm the senses, but to keep you consuming, and that is it. That's the feed goes on forever. There is no end to the internet, there are not enough hours and minutes and days in your life to get through everything that's on the internet, even if you continuously scroll through it. So that's a that's living in a perpetual state of unsatisfaction. And that, to me sounds like an unsatisfactory life and the sum of things. And so if you can find satisfaction from smaller things and not have this voracious appetite that grows as you continue to consume by constantly scrolling, I'm jumping around metaphors here. But if you if you can shift and be satiated by less, life becomes a lot more fulfilling, a lot more entertaining and easier to find joy and your capacity for enjoyment and finding pursuits that are interesting to you that aren't just scrolling through a feed or being glued to a computer screen or TV screen all day. It just increases so much you get to actually live life instead of consuming content that is kind of like the Hallmark greeting card of life experiences. You know, we've kind of outsourced writing heartfelt notes to people, you go buy a card off the shelf that seems to fit your relationship with that person. On this occasion, you sign your name through an envelope, and you're done. We've outsourced letter writing and heartfelt sentiment. That's kind of what watching different types of television or online videos or scrolling through news feeds of other people's lives. That is us outsourcing lived experience to others, it gives us kind of a shadow of that emotional experience, we'd get the rush from watching someone else skydive or the rush from watching someone else. Do a big, you know, public presentation or run for office and an election, but never doing it yourself. When you look back on your life, 20 years from now or later in life? How are you going to feel about that? Did you sit in front of a screen and watch everyone else do everything? Or did you go out and do things that make you feel proud? That's one of the measures of a good life, in my opinion, for sure is am I making my future self proud by the actions I take now.

Yonason Goldson: 11:34

That's a beautiful formulation. And you know, the money phrase I heard you use in your presentation is that our world has become all about comfort, convenience and stimulation. And I mean, it just sums it up. So accurately. In in Hebrew, the word for a game or a toy is or toys or shot showing. And it's it's a double route shot means to turn toward. So when you repeat the route in the word it means to turn towards turning towards. Oh, wow. What's the purpose of again is to remember when my eldest son was, I think four or five years old, I was playing Chutes and Ladders with him. And we're playing along and I see that he brought the dice. He's going to land on the final square and win the game. And he moves the dice he gets he says you won. And he looks at me and he burst into tears. So I want to keep playing. There's a tremendous beauty in that. Because what makes it really is that purpose is the process you're doing you've got both at the same time. But the problem is that it becomes addictive. And you know, I've been saying for a long time that we're living in the Roman Empire. Because what did the Romans do to pacify the people that gave them bread and circuses. They gave them food and they gave them gladiatorial combat. So the Romans created the entitlement culture and the entertainment industry. They did it to pacify this citizenry so that the elite the nobility could have their lavish orgies. So you think about how that's working today how we are being pacified and numbed. And we think that we've got all this wonderful stuff at our fingertips, and we do. But we just get lost in it. And I really like the way you phrase that. If I look back at my life, and I say, I spent so much of it in front of a screen. Am I really going to have any sense of fulfillment? Oh, yeah.

Giancarlo Pitocco: 13:56

What do you want to do with your life, if you're not in touch with those values, if you don't have some aspiration of something you're working towards, you never need to actually reach it, but something you're moving towards. So you can be striving so you can be growing and challenging yourself. This is the the journey right? The game, the act of playing the game rather than winning the game or accomplishing or achieving that was such a beautiful metaphor, the the game with your daughter. That's it. I mean, when it when it's over, it's over, you want to have played really, really well. You don't want to keep playing to just to achieve, for sure. But you have to know on that life scale, what are you working towards, and maybe that changes and maybe values shift over time as well. In fact, they should as you grow and you achieve new levels of what normal is to you. If you're not challenging yourself, pushing the boundaries of what is familiar and comfortable to you. Then you end up with the feeling of stagnation in your life. The folks who are happiest they tend not to be the well. healthiest people that, you know, they tend to be folks that know why they're doing what they're doing. And they're not chasing specific goals and outcomes. They're being choice full, intentional, purposeful, take your pick of the word, they know what's driving them in here. So that and that's the whole ballgame right there in life, you know, people ask, you know, well, how do I know? What's the right thing to do in my relationship with technology? Is this right? Is this good? Or is this bad? This thing that I do? I'm in a long distance relationship, we spend a lot of time on devices that okay, what do you think? And it's really a question of, are you using the technology in service of your needs, your values, or your aspirations? And if Yes, great, but the answer to that for you is going to be a little different from me. And because of those very things, it's not a black and white, yes or no, Is this right? Or is this wrong? There's some obvious stuff on the extremes. But for the most part, your typical use of devices should be based on that. And you were talking before about, you know, we are craving this constant stimulation. And one of the things that I asked people to do, whether I'm coaching them one on one, I'm an executive coach, or if I'm doing a digital wellbeing workshop with people, is to put something on the devices that distract you the most, maybe if it's your phone, creating a background that says something to you, like, what are you seeking? Having a post it note on your television, and asking yourself is what I'm seeking in this moment, as I reflexively reach for my phone? Is it something that's actually available in this little sliver of aluminum glass in silicon? Or am I actually seeking a meaningful human connection of some kind? Should I be calling up a friend? Should I be making plans to go see someone? Is there something I need to talk about? Is there a feeling in here that's making me uncomfortable that I'm trying to numb by scrolling through a feed or going on Reddit and watching a bunch of meaningless videos to distract myself from those feelings? the good stuff is where those feelings are, though. If you want to grow, if you want to find that satisfaction, that happiness in life, you have to go where the discomfort is. Now, what do they say and stoicism, the obstacle is the way. And if we have a whole culture of avoiding the obstacle, and we have so many tools for it, we carry this around everywhere. Like the only time you're not plugged into your phone is when you're in the shower or when you're asleep. But now we have sleep tracking devices that will tell you what you did all night. And we have voice assistants that you can talk to while you're in the shower, and all of that. So there really is no escape from it. But so so it's a tide. It's it's waves coming at us of constant digital stimulation and opportunities for consumption and distraction. We have to choose how we navigate that ocean and those waves. You are the navigator. The stuff coming at you is not the decider of how you use your time and attention you are. But it's so easy to just surrender, that autonomy, that authority, that agency over how you decide how to spend your time and attention. And it's just, it's now ingrained in us when I work with these executives who are bombarded with emails and calendar invite on top of calendar invite, they have no control over their day. And then they wonder why they don't feel like a good leader and their company's not going in the direction they want it to. You've got to create space, you've got to say no to a lot of things. So you can say yes to what really matters. prioritize those needs, values and aspirations. That's the other part of it that people don't get. They're like, well, all of this stuff is important to me. Well, that's where prioritization comes in. Let's sequence these things. You don't have to say no to anything necessarily. You can say well, yes to this right now. And yes to that as well. But later, what's what's most important right now? Anyway,

Margarita Gurri: 18:56

wow. Well, the rabbi and I were talking about one of your workshops, which is also an article, the five stages on digital wellbeing. If you wouldn't mind addressing those, we thought it was really on point. Oh, thank

Giancarlo Pitocco: 19:10

you. So I talk about the five areas. I've seen rise to the top after years of working on this and speaking to people and seeing, you know, what, what are people really wrestling with here? And what are the areas in which they're able to most easily gain traction, to shift that relationship with technology and ultimately with themselves and their attention. And there are five areas that I tend to focus on, based on that. It's the power of your attention, your values, boundaries, high quality, leisure time, how you use your leisure time is really important. We've lost the fine art of good leisure time. And the last part is solitude, which is time spent free from the thoughts or ideas of others. It doesn't mean lonely. So I think solitude gets a bad rap. But attention, let's talk about that. Let's go through these quickly. Just to give you a sense of of the issue, each one of these could be a workshop unto themselves, but your attention, it is the One Power nature has given you for creating your life, it is the power you have for focusing your consciousness over a period of time on something specific. And what you choose to focus it on becomes your life. And it's you can think of it like the the needle or the stylus on a record player. And where you drop that needle, if it were the power of your attention determines what music gets played. And so you know, you want to be the DJ of your life, you want to determine what music gets played, by placing that needle carefully on the things that matter are important to you, that bring meaning into your life, rather than letting the buzzes dings, notifications of your technology dictate where that needle of your attention goes. So we have to be very choice full about that. And then the other part is values. This is actually the perhaps the biggest thing, but it's the I think the hardest for people to wrap their heads around and start making progress on. Because a lot of us just don't actively live life, in touch with our values. We're not taught in general, to be in touch with our values and what they are and how to recognize them. But if you have a set of values that guide your behavior, it becomes really easy to decide in the moment, is this good for me or bad for me? Is this the right choice or the wrong choice. And it doesn't have to be that black and white. But that's how that that's meeting people where they are when I talk about this. And I actually draw out of inspiration from the Amish, who I'll tell a quick story about how they decide whether or not to integrate technology, the little technology they allow into their communities, because they're famous for saying no to a lot of the modern conveniences and technology we use. But someone in the community could come to the the board of elders in that community and say, Hey, you know, I see people are using these smartphone things in town, they seem like a very handy productive thing I think we should try them out. They might say okay, well, you are the only one in our community who can get one of these things. First, we're going to give it a maybe a month or two, let you try it out. You can only use it in these circumstances. And we're going to pay attention to how this affects the way you show up for your family, your community, your overall self, your well being. And then we'll make a determination about whether or not it's worth rolling this out more broadly, is the balance, the benefit? Is it far outweighing any of the negatives? So they pay attention to the externalities they start small experiments? And if it's good, then they build on it? If it's not, then they can say no to it. So can you arrive at a set of values around that? What would you pay attention to if you're going to maybe get a smartwatch for the first time? Try it out, not with the expectation that this is forever, but you get a two week return policy on a lot of these things. Give yourself two weeks to try it out? Did this help me or hurt me on the whole? And what if you're not sure what those values are, you should check in with some measure that against you could start with maybe spending some time examining your habits and deciding what are the bad habits I have. For me, it was things like spending too much time online, using technology as a distraction, using it as a vehicle for procrastination, using it as this bottomless kind of rabbit hole to fall down and lose, you know, hours of time, unconsciously just scrolling. And so I turned those around. I said instead of using technology to be online all the time, can I use technology to facilitate me having real world experiences. So that was something like using Facebook groups to get in touch with local communities that meet in person and become aware of when they're gathering. So get online to get the logistical information to go have offline experiences. So you can create a whole set of values by just taking your bad habits that you want to change and flipping them on their head? What's the opposite of that? And is that something I want to embrace? That was a good starting point for me around creating some values to at least just reclaim my attention so I could figure out what to do with it once I've got it back from technology.

Yonason Goldson: 24:08

You jump in for a second. You mentioned the Amish. And that's very I hadn't heard what you're describing. I remember going back decades that the philosophy Amish was pretty much technology is bad. What's modern is bad. And that put them in an untenable position. Because the speed at which the world is changing and the dependence upon technology made it virtually impossible to live without any connection with technology. And so what you're explaining is that they themselves have modulating their philosophy. To say we need to we need to adapt, we need to respond we need to figure out how to live in a world that's running away. Let's make a decision. point by point piece by piece. Let's test in a controlled way Let's make an evaluation over whether some development is going to be ultimately more beneficial or more damaging or destructive, or, or harmful, and then allow that to shape our decisions moving forward. You know, as after the social dilemmas come out, you would think, well, let's just all unplug, because it's so obvious now that but you know, the genies out of the bottle, we can't put it back, we're stuck with what we have. You're really giving us a very practical formula for how in our own lives, we can measure our response and make mindful choices.

Giancarlo Pitocco: 25:43

That's the thing that I saw was missing when I became aware of this issue, and I saw that there were a few folks out there talking about this, but it was a lot of people raising that flag of, hey, there's a problem, hey, there's smoke, actually, there's a whole fire. It's burning in Silicon Valley. And it's spreading everywhere else in the world, but not offering much in the way of practical solutions for individuals out there that were watching these stressful documentaries. I mean, so many people would come to me, Oh, my gosh, you just watch the social dilemma. I'm so stressed out, I want to quit on my technology. But I can't because I want to be a member of society. And we're connected that way. And it's COVID. And that's the only way I have connection to people. What do I do? I wanted to be able to give solutions for individuals to take action. While there are other organizations out there trying to change government policy. There are folks working with insiders in the technology companies trying to get them to change the way that they design products. But honestly, the business models of those companies don't support a lot of those changes. So what can we do as individuals in the meantime, to regulate our relationship with technology such that it's not detrimental to us, it's doing what it's supposed to be, which is a tool to enhance our capabilities to remove the drudgery of life and make things more convenient to to a limit. Everything in moderation. But yeah, that's the thing. We can take action, I don't want anyone to ever feel helpless about this, there are ways to take control. If you want it, you have to have the deserving power to know that, okay, there's a better way, I'm willing to make some changes to get to that, versus this is really bad, but I'm just gonna keep doing what I'm doing. And that's the hard part is reaching folks and helping them have that lightbulb moment where they're like, Okay, I'm ready for a change. You can't you know, some people are ready right away. Some people need some time, you can't force it. But you want to be able to connect with folks where they are to help them realize, oh, but it's in your power to do something. And here's a really easy way to get started that I feel like anyone can do.

Margarita Gurri: 27:46

We got a comment from your from Sue, I'm sorry to interrupt you, we have a comment from Sue, that speaks to what you're just talking about referring the issue of addiction that accompany the shall not be named, invested millions, in every stage of development, to leverage addiction. And I think that it's clear that, you know, I'm a psychologist. So what I see is that people are afraid to look at themselves, because, you know, we're all wonderful and awful. And you have to accept both are true at any given moment. That's just the human condition. And it's really scary. So what do you say to that to the issue of addiction and the scariness of fighting addiction to look within

Giancarlo Pitocco: 28:30

know how to recognize the forces that are addictive in the devices, the software, the technologies, the websites, the social media platforms that you use. And if there's one easy way into that, I would say, just Google, the term dark patterns. And these are features and functions and user interface design of technologies that are designed to influence your behavior in a way that you don't notice. And they've been dubbed dark patterns, there are tons of great videos and articles, you'll just stumble over all kinds of good stuff if you do a little search for dark patterns. And you'll recognize how the devices that you think are just passively there in your life are actually engineered to manipulate you, and how you spend your time. And the newsfeed is of any, you know, social media platform for the most part, in particular, Facebook and Twitter and Instagram. They're designed in a way with an algorithm that is meant to very carefully decide which piece of content it's going to show you next to keep you scrolling. Why do they care if you keep on scrolling? Because the more you scroll, the more ads these companies can show you. Why do they care about showing you ads because that's the thing. They're in the business of selling ad space they're selling. They're harvesting your time and attention through the newsfeed so that they can show you ads That big companies and small companies have paid for. And that their inventory Facebook, let's say for instance, their inventory of products that they are selling is your time and attention. That's it. And so the more you give them, the more they can sell, the more ads they can show you, the more stuff you can buy that you probably don't actually need. And the cycle continues. And so everything has been engineered in this way. You know, the, one of my favorite examples was more relevant a couple years ago when it first happened. But you saw YouTube introduced an autoplay feature, where when you finish watching one video, the next one would start playing a few seconds later and pick one for you based on what it thought your preferences were to keep you watch awful, it is so addictive. It's also that's a dark pattern right there. And what happened? Well, everyone else had to compete with that all of a sudden, Facebook introduced autoplay, then Netflix and everyone else because they were stealing market share or the share of your time and attention. By having autoplay, if you just sit there cruising on YouTube 30 minutes longer than you would have otherwise, because of that feature. That's time you could have spent investing in your Netflix subscription, or paying for Hulu, or using one of these other platforms. So they realize to compete with each other to hold on to your attention, they all had to roll out those kinds of dark patterns. There's a great book called The attention merchants by Tim Wu, that if that's something you want to learn more about the business model that powers these choices to engineer products to be more addictive, that's a great one and change. The first step for change is awareness of the problem. So the more you can do to educate yourself by watching some of these documentaries, learning about dark patterns, reading books, like the attention merchants, the more you can recognize this in your everyday life and then be choice full about, is it serving me to allow that dark pattern to influence me? Or am I going to now avoid that and recognize that I get to choose how to navigate here,

Yonason Goldson: 32:02

that really, that really speaks to the whole issue of ethics here, because what they're doing is they are turning us from consumers into commodities. We are the product and we are being sold to the advertisers. And, you know, that just contributes to the the dehumanization of the individual. Which is kind of ironic, because we're, we're in an age where there's this counter, you know, you've got two competing values. Everybody's talking about individual rights and individual autonomy and and and everybody's should be equal and have equity. And then we've got a whole system that is designed consciously to devalue us and dehumanizes you wonder why are we so dysfunctional? we're grappling with this conflict in who we are and what our society is. Oh, well, I wrote a book grappling with the gray and there it is. Love that and something in there.

Giancarlo Pitocco: 33:12

Douglas Rushkoff speaks about this issue a great deal around technology. He has a book called team human, where he one of the examples he gives as a kind of metaphor for what's going on is that he talks about Silicon Valley is colonizing our minds. And that what's the idea behind colonization? Well, you know, powerful nations, set up colonies in faraway lands to extract resources from the local people and local lands and bring them back to the kingdom. And that is what Silicon Valley has done with our minds. And when you look at some of these founders of the companies who have broken away, and are doing other things, a lot of times the story is they had kids, they saw what was happening to their kids when they were using the technology. And that woke them up to this idea of oh my gosh, look what we've done. Look at what we've created and what it's doing to people. And that's when they stopped using technology. That's when they leave the industry and start going out and speaking about these issues is when they watch what they've created, harvesting the time and attention the life away from someone that they very personally deeply care about. And an innocent person at a young child that wakes them up to this idea of colonizing the mind where we're not taking care of ourselves and we're not paying attention to the forces at work that aren't in our best interest but very much portrayed. I mean, if you listen to Facebook, talk about what they create and what they do. You think it's like the greatest benefit for humanity that has ever existed? But they know happening, boy do they know how to spin a good PR story. It's impressive as someone who comes from a communications background and knows the fine art of Spin and PR and marketing. Man, I think that's maybe their greatest product ever, in a defensive way is their ability to tell a good PR story even though all the natural press about them as bad the organic stuff. But when you hear them talk, oh, wow, that kool aid is delicious.

Margarita Gurri: 35:18

Well, luckily you have a certain Kool Aid, you have those five points I want to make sure we get through them, we have attention and values. And then we have boundaries, high quality, leisure time and solitude, while addressing them, as I'm sure that the listeners are eager to learn from your Kool Aid.

Giancarlo Pitocco: 35:37

I'll hit those last ones pretty quickly for the sake of time, boundaries. So boundaries create space for you to apply your attention purposefully and navigate by your values. The boundaries are really about saying no to the demands that are put on your time and attention every single day. If you work in an office as part of a team, you have the tasks that are important to you to get done for the role that you're in and the goals you have for where you're going in your career and the benefit you want to provide to the company that you run or you're a part of, but lots of other things are going to come up and your your day, every every minute to vie for your attention to distract, you could be emails from colleagues asking you to handle something that they need help with. And if you're not clear on what your boundaries and priorities are, then you're never going to get to the important stuff. And that's true on that microcosm level of how you spend your work day, for example, but it's true in life, if you are constantly putting off the things that are important to you, because of things that are just right in front of you, you're allowing yourself to be led by your nose through life, you need strong boundaries to create space in your life, for things that are important to you something that can hold water and not leak. Every time someone comes up and tries to poke a hole in it with a demand or your phone buzzes or there's a newsfeed calling for you. You need those healthy boundaries. And one way to start doing that with technology that I often recommend is finding a place to charge your phone at night that's not in your bedroom. And maybe getting something like an alarm clock because that's the thing people always say, Well, my phone is how I wake up in the morning, if I charge it outside of my room, how am I going to wake up? Look, you go on amazon.com search alarm clock, you can get them for like six bucks, your local grocery, your local drugstore usually hasn't to go out and invest in alarm clock, you get more sleep, and wake up feeling more energized than if you fall asleep scrolling every night. So boundaries, that's one step to take towards it keep phones and digital devices out of the bedroom. Next one I want to talk about is high quality leisure time, we've lost the art of cultivating high quality leisure time. And that requires spending some energy on an activity that engages the mind or helps you connect socially with someone having a shared experience. Rather than what we typically think is like, Oh, I had a long day of work, I just want to turn off my brain, I'm going to plop down on the couch, maybe pour myself a glass of wine, order some delivery and let Netflix autoplay carry me through my evening to maybe I fall asleep on the couch or it's time for bed, I wake up I rinse and repeat. And that leaves you feeling de energized. If you were to spend that time instead, you know, sure go watch some Netflix have an episode of something 30 minutes. But do something is it a hobby is it designing something, building something, working on a puzzle with a member of your family doing some home improvement stuff, learning a new skill. growing in some way creating something tangible, perhaps this is something that takes a little bit of energy, which is counterintuitive when you're feeling like low energy after a long day. But when you put that energy into it, it's a it's a really great investment. Because you get a whole lot of energy back, you feel better about how you spent that time you wake up the next day feeling more energized. And looking forward to more of that if you can find the right thing. Little curiosity goes a long way there. So that's one of the things we need to do. And human connection is a big part of that I talk about the art of social nutrition. And in person face to face time with people is so much more energizing than just texting or commenting on social media. So seeking out real interaction where you get the full spectrum of what our brains are designed to process socially, which is more than just the words that we're saying it's the tone of voice, the gestures, facial expressions, heck, it's pheromones and physical contact, that's part of that, that feels nourishing to us and energizing to us. So seeking that out as part of high quality leisure time is really important. And then the last bit of solitude, which is leaving a little space every day for you to be free from the thoughts of others. It's rare that we spend time with ourselves anymore, because there's so many we're conditioned our brains are trained to reach for the phone, you know, you go into a building you push the button for an elevator, you have maybe 15 seconds to wait, what do you do? I reach for my phone. I've got to be stimulated. I've got to be entertained. What happens If you spend a little time with yourself, maybe just some eyes closed, putting your attention on your breath, five minutes breathing. Oh, man, it's really a powerful effect, very centering effect where the stress can kind of melt away, you can be reminded of what's important. Maybe you take a walk, maybe you meditate, maybe read a paragraph of something really inspiring from a book that you love or a poet that you love. Anything time free from the constant stimulation of the outer world is really important. So those are the five things attention, values, boundaries, high quality, leisure time, and solitude. Keys to reclaiming life from the areas where digital distractions constantly gnawing away and drawing us in. We have a killer, Rabbi, You have something before we do the word

Yonason Goldson: 40:49

of the day. Yes, we have an acronym we've mentioned before for ethics. The E is empathy. The D is trustworthiness. The H is humility, is inquisitiveness, C is courage. But the one that resonates here for me is the s, which is self discipline. And because everything you say, it just makes so much sense. You can't argue with it. Now, we know it. But then it comes back to why don't diets work. Because we don't follow them. Why don't we follow them? Because when it comes down to it, I want to eat what I want to eat. I don't want to go to the gym. I know this. I mean, when when I got married, we didn't have a TV set. It just wasn't part of our lifestyle. And that was, you know, what did we do ourselves in the evenings? We're still married. So I guess it was okay. We play games. We read books. We talked, we went for walks. Yep. And then streaming came along. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's, I know that I have better things to do. But it's just so easy. and fun. Yeah, it's the pleasure. Pleasure factor. Yes, it's fun, good. It's, it really requires self discipline to get asked to do to get us to do what we know is in our own best interest. Hmm.

Margarita Gurri: 42:25

Alright, so let me defend my fellow peeps for a second. Is there anything wrong with a purposeful Netflix binge? Okay.

Giancarlo Pitocco: 42:35

If it's serving your needs, your values and aspirations in some way, then it's fine. Let's say you want to learn about maybe you're an aspiring designer, and you want to learn about the design industry. Netflix has a fantastic series on design and art and abstract art. And there's just a whole wealth of great things. It's like, if you've got this digital buffet in your living room available all you can eat anytime you want. What are you putting into your body? If the information is like nourishment for your mind your spirits? Are you bringing in things that are nourishing for those things? Or not? What are you choosing to eat from the buffet? And sometimes what you want is to laugh. So you put on a few episodes of Seinfeld. Fantastic Mission accomplished. That was my aspiration. I want to laugh tonight, my friends aren't available. I've got this streaming service at my beck and call. I'm going to put on a couple episodes of Seinfeld appreciate that. But other times, maybe it's something else. And you have to think about opportunity cost, right? What could I have done with that time? And what is my consistent behavior pattern? Am I always doing this every night? And if I fast forward 20 years and keep doing that? How am I going to feel about having spent all those nights doing that? Well, where's where there may be some better things? What would mean 1020 years from now say we regret not spending that time on that can help motivate you and give you a powerful why, like we were talking about at the beginning of this having some meaning behind the actions that you choose having a strong Why is everything no one changes their behavior without some kind of positive cycle of incentives. And if you have meaning behind your actions, that's the ultimate of incentives that you draw meaning from your actions and the way you spend your time instead of chasing that pleasure, which is empty and hollow. And as soon as the experience ends, you're left with what you've been avoiding, which is the discomfort here from not having that larger purpose or meaning or why behind how you live your days. But I'll

Yonason Goldson: 44:44

that was a great segue into the word of the day. The word of the day today is disciplined, disciplined, which means to be bursting open or springing apart. And what you just described on Carlo The, the emptiness that really results from being a perpetual consumer, rather than a creator, or participant observer rather participant is that we, when we live lives that are rich, we just want to give a bonus word of the day, the Yiddish of this is plots. So excited that rabbi, he l o, t, z. All right. And this is the way we should live life, that we're just we just have so much swelling up inside us, that it just bursts out of us. Because that creates connection with others. And when somebody is really excited, it's infectious. You can when somebody's giggling, you started getting rolling, somebody is enthusiastic, you get enthusiastic, it's just human nature, we mirror one another. So if I'm look bottom, ized, then I'm going to pull you into that sort of stupefied state. If I'm really excited about something that's important and meaningful and valuable, I'm going to project that to you and you're going to feel some of that excitement. So let's be disciplined in our approach to life and generate positive energy and meaning and purpose.

Giancarlo Pitocco: 46:26

I love that so much. Fantastic word of the day, I want to carry that with new ticket everywhere. So true. So true.

Margarita Gurri: 46:35

I try and use the rabbi's Word of the Day throughout the week, and I'm finding that lots of people are asking why. And it's been a lot of it's been a new hobby. So even just doing something little, you know, it's just amazing. So Sir, do you have one final bit of wisdom to share with our enthralled listeners?

Giancarlo Pitocco: 46:59

Hmm, well, I'm all about taking action, and encouraging people to do something and not just listen to this for the sake of entertainment. Because podcasts can become that is education, and educational and insightful as they are, they can also be a form of consumption, that doesn't lead to action change or growth. And so I would invite anyone listening today that really cares about this and wants to create some change, to choose a habit that they want to change about their relationship with technology. How do you do that, you have to notice it first. So maybe we'll start with a noticing action here for everyone as the final insight. And that would be to pick up the device that you use most after this session. Maybe it's your phone, it's probably your phone, and go into the settings. And if you're on an iPhone, look for something called screen time. And if you're on an Android device, look for something called Digital wellbeing. Go into there and take a look at the stats that it has accumulated about your usage of your device. It'll tell you your average time spent on that device per day in hours and minutes. And the top most used apps or visited websites on that device. And when you do that, I want you when you're faced with those numbers and those behavior patterns of what you're doing with the phone, I want you to ask yourself, How does that feel? Does it feel good to see that you're spending five plus hours a day with your face on a little four inch screen? poking away your feed? And usually it's social media apps at the top of the list? Ask your future self? Is this a use of my time and attention? That makes me proud? Looking back? What would you fill that time with instead? If the answer is no. It's a great starting point to some awareness of your own behavior and what you want to move towards that appeals to your higher self.

Yonason Goldson: 48:58

sounds absolutely terrifying.

Margarita Gurri: 49:03

It's a good kick in the butt to get started. I'm gonna walk the walk. I'm gonna have to do it. I'm gonna say a hail mary. See, I'm Catholic. I say a Hail Mary, then look at my stats. Perfect.

Giancarlo Pitocco: 49:15

That's the way to do it. Open Mind, openness and curiosity is what happens no judgment, and then take action. Keep that phone outside your bedroom.

Yonason Goldson: 49:27

Well, thank you, Joe. We are already planning to have you back because there's just so many so much. There's so much more we could talk about here. But it's been it's been a real eye opener and inspiration. So thank you. And, Doctor, do you all last word for us today?

Margarita Gurri: 49:42

I do, sir. The last word has to do with a question that john Carlo us and I think it's a really good one. How would your life be better if your family had a healthier relationship with technology and I think That question speaks to the main issue why people seek psychologists, coaches, consultants, trainers, teachers is how to have a better, more fulfilling life. And what the rabbi had talked about to not confuse pleasure and happiness. So ask yourself, how would your life be healthier? And your relationship with yourself, with the community with loved ones with with a superpower, God if you believe in God, whatever. So I think sometimes the question asking the question even if you don't know the answer, can be life affirming. So, gonna tell you that the rabbi john Carnell, and I have faith in you, we know you can do this. So ask away and let us know, please email us at podcast at the rabbi in the shrink. And let us know what have you done to change as a result of listening to john Carlo be Darko and his amazing thoughts on technology and healthy uses of it. Well, thank you, gentlemen, for joining us on the rabbi in the shrink. The good rabbi, my favorite. I'm always delighted we'll see you next Tuesday and john Carlo, we will have you back because you are now a good use of our time. So what an honor thank you so much of your time.

Unknown: 51:29

Indeed, it would be a delight to return. Thank you so much. It was really a pleasure chatting Alright everyone stay well and lead an ethical life.