#29 Cristina DiGiacomo -- how practical philosophy prevents persistent problems
Do you often wonder why people aren’t listening to you?
Can philosophy provide practical solutions to modern problems?
Why are we challenged to bring together abstract concepts with down-to-earth issues?
These and other persistent questions are answered when practical philosopher and moral alchemist Cristina DiGiacomo joins the Rabbi and the Shrink
https://www.linkedin.com/in/cristinadigiacomo/
1:00 How can philosophy provide practical solutions to modern problems?
Why are we challenged to bring together abstract concepts with down-to-earth issues?
We are philosophers if we pursue authentic wisdoms
7:30 The handshake and the golden rule are examples of accessible philosophy
Philosophy is the love of wisdom and the way we look at life
Asking questions makes us philosophers
Philosophy is a matter of outlook and perspective
Our attitudes shape our perceptions
12:00 What are the benefits of asking questions?
You stop multitasking
Triggers serotonin
Questions lead to intentions which lead to outcomes
If we aren’t open to new insights, we can’t be ethical
17:00 When we know that we don’t know, we open ourselves up to possibilities
Too many people don’t recognize the relevance of ethics in their lives
19:30 When we face problems, ask where did we go wrong?
It’s easier to blame individuals that to question the system
The benefit of 12-step recovery programs
Mistakes help us become stronger and do better
24:30 Why aren’t people listening to me?
Are we connecting perception with reality?
What do the classical philosophers say to address our problems?
28:00 Asking questions preempts conflict and promotes self-reflection
Openness drives progress
The danger and opportunity of “yeah, but.”
32:00 The word of the day: epistemology
How we know what we know
If arrive at the correct facts through faulty reasoning we may be setting ourselves up for future errors
We may need data now, but reason prepares us for the future
36:00 “The sage acts without pressure from within or without.”
The Hebrew word aliza can mean to relieve pressure or to apply pressure
Different situations call for different strategies to move us forward
What is one question you can ask yourself about your philosophy?
When we live from fear rather than from curiosity, we are setting ourselves up for failure.
#29 Cristina DiGiacomo -- how practical philosophy prevents persistent problems
Do you often wonder why people aren’t listening to you?
Can philosophy provide practical solutions to modern problems?
Why are we challenged to bring together abstract concepts with down-to-earth issues?
These and other persistent questions are answered when practical philosopher and moral alchemist Cristina DiGiacomo joins the Rabbi and the Shrink
https://www.linkedin.com/in/cristinadigiacomo/
1:00 How can philosophy provide practical solutions to modern problems?
Why are we challenged to bring together abstract concepts with down-to-earth issues?
We are philosophers if we pursue authentic wisdoms
7:30 The handshake and the golden rule are examples of accessible philosophy
Philosophy is the love of wisdom and the way we look at life
Asking questions makes us philosophers
Philosophy is a matter of outlook and perspective
Our attitudes shape our perceptions
12:00 What are the benefits of asking questions?
You stop multitasking
Triggers serotonin
Questions lead to intentions which lead to outcomes
If we aren’t open to new insights, we can’t be ethical
17:00 When we know that we don’t know, we open ourselves up to possibilities
Too many people don’t recognize the relevance of ethics in their lives
19:30 When we face problems, ask where did we go wrong?
It’s easier to blame individuals that to question the system
The benefit of 12-step recovery programs
Mistakes help us become stronger and do better
24:30 Why aren’t people listening to me?
Are we connecting perception with reality?
What do the classical philosophers say to address our problems?
28:00 Asking questions preempts conflict and promotes self-reflection
Openness drives progress
The danger and opportunity of “yeah, but.”
32:00 The word of the day: epistemology
How we know what we know
If arrive at the correct facts through faulty reasoning we may be setting ourselves up for future errors
We may need data now, but reason prepares us for the future
36:00 “The sage acts without pressure from within or without.”
The Hebrew word aliza can mean to relieve pressure or to apply pressure
Different situations call for different strategies to move us forward
What is one question you can ask yourself about your philosophy?
When we live from fear rather than from curiosity, we are setting ourselves up for failure.
Welcome to the rabbi in the shrink. This is Dr. Margarita Guri, Dr. Red shoe and my favorite Rabbi Yonason Goldson. And we're very happy to be here to have the guest, Christina de Giacomo. Welcome, Christina. Hi everyone. Kristina is was found by our good rabbi who knows her. She does something that everyone needs, she helps us the title of her book is why is up at work. She has had quite a journey, and many experience to help us understand how can we use philosophy to make us better as individuals and teams and organizations at work? So I'm just going to send it to you, Christina digiacomo, please talk to us. You have a master's degree in organizational change management. Tell us about what you do and your journey there. Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here and hello to everyone out there. So how about I start with where I started, let's begin at the beginning. So I had a career in marketing and advertising, I worked on the agency side award winning agencies and also on the client side, corporate, I started the brand strategy department at the New York Times. So I had I was having a very good run. And about 10 years ago, I hit the skids. I was working in these really intense environments. advertising and marketing are very intense fields. And in these high pressured workplaces, and I found myself actually experiencing what I believe to be an existential crisis, like a real one, like, what do I do with my life? What am I doing this is crazy. And I just found that I just really felt like there was had to be more than had to be more to life than this. So I decided to start taking classes in philosophy just as something to do outside and I'm intellectually driven. And so I started taking philosophy classes, and specifically practical philosophy, which is essentially the discipline of using philosophy in real world situations. And as I began to practice what I was learning, I was able to deal with the demanding Boss, I was able to, um, you know, work with that territorial co worker, I was actually able to initiate really big change in my career, and I did some really amazing things. And I always was very interested in the impact of the world, you know, the world of work on people's psyche, and mindset, and life. And so I got a master's degree in organizational change management, so I could understand what a great workplace is all about. And then a few years ago, I decided to combine all three, my understanding of what it's like to be in the trenches of corporate to understanding what it means to have a great organizational culture, and the principles and practices of philosophy, and bring them all together. And that's how I found it more alchemy, which is my advising firm, where I go, and I teach executives about philosophy so that they can lead wisely. What journey Hey, Rob, I wanted to comment on that, because you're all about the philosophy. Well, it was interesting when I when I posted the show yesterday, on my LinkedIn page, the first comment I got was practical philosopher. And I think that we sort of take for granted that philosophers are up in the clouds, and they don't really have a whole lot of interaction with what's good, what's going on down on earth. And that's sir, that's unfortunate. Because we want it the whole point of philosophy is to have some practical benefit to our lives. And I think most of us I mean, one of the reasons why the doctor and I feel we have a successful partnership, is because I'm the abstract conceptual stuff that's more up in the clouds, and the doctor is the very practical down to earth and so it's a good it's a good partnership. Do you find it's challenging to bring those two together? Do you find it's difficult for people to see how they do fit together. So you I'm going to answer in a couple of ways. So first philosophy, his original intention was to be for the people. It was self help before self help ever existed. The traditions of philosophical thinking, you know, Socrates was out in the streets, like most philosophers rolled up their sleeves and really tried to empower people in their understanding of themselves and their relationship to the world. So the original intention of philosophy was practical. And then at some point, historically, and I think part of it is because the traditions of philosophical thinking, a lot of them were lost over millennia. And it was scholars that really, were the custodians of these original texts, and a lot of the scholarly thinking around this. So how that evolved, it became sort of cloistered in the academic University, in academics, and it became the relationship with the people and the connection to people became less and less over the years. Now, practical philosophy is really about supporting the original intention of philosophy and making it accessible for everyone because it is and it can be, it just evolved to such a place where it is in that sort of ivory tower. The good news is that there are people like me, who are out there, kind of tower busting, to be honest. Um, you know, there, I believe everyone is a philosopher. I believe everyone is a philosopher, if you are a capable of asking a question about what you're here to do, and what life means to you, you're a philosopher, you don't have to be smart, to be a philosopher or to understand philosophy, there's plenty of guidance that has been in front of us, that's common sense. Everyone is wise inside. And so I'm trying to break down these barriers of entry that have been built up over 100 1000s of years. And really kind of, you know, kickstart philosophy as it was meant to be. When Sue makes a great comment about what you have to say, I suspect most people feel the practical value far outweighs the more difficult to apply philosophy. I can imagine that being hugely difficult to overcome. She says that in her business they used to refer to as airy fairy. Yeah. So again, there's some perceptions people have about philosophy that I'm trying to change. You know, a lot of people think it's kind of woowoo stuff, or, you know, it's like stuffy tweed vest, bow tie, like dude with white hair. And, you know, we're some Beardy guy on a mountaintop. And it's really, we see it every day philosophy plays itself out every day, and the norms that we have, in how we interact with each other, the handshake was invented in fifth century BC as a way to come together in peace, like, how like, the leadership principles, if you peel away the layers of all of the leadership principles, or self help principles, or even from, from the standpoint of psychology, if you get down to the root of all of those things, it's all philosophy. And we see, we see this in the golden rule. That's philosophy, you know, being of service, that's philosophy. So we're practicing philosophy and may not even know it. And so I'm just trying to create that bridge. How do you define philosophy for people who think it's not accessible for them? So the way I look at it, or the way I explain it is, we all have met someone wise, whether it's Grandma, or you know, the, the guy behind the deli counter, who seems to always have a good word to say, people can actually conjure a wise person in their minds. And I explained to them, the philosophy is the love of wisdom. And so when you see the embodiment of wisdom, that's philosophy at work. Is it possible for someone not to have a philosophy? So, yes, it's entirely possible. I think part of it is their awareness. Right? We all have sort of ways that we look at the ways that we look at life or the ways that we perceive life. That might be philosophical, and we're not aware of it. I don't believe that, that anyone is has a deficit or a complete zero. When it comes to wisdom, or being philosophical, everyone has the capacity to ask a question. And if you I think that speaks to your TED Talk, the idea of a borrowed philosophy, I do believe everyone has one, whether they know it or not, like, I think you're kind of right on that. Why don't you speak to that issue, because I love the way you speak about it. Well, that's an interesting tie. And I hadn't thought of the the idea that we do absorb values from those around us, often without being aware of that. Now, in Hebrew, the word for philosophy is hashkafa, which translates literally his perspective or outlook, how do you set hashkafa or hashkafa, depending on your, whether you're speaking biblical or, or modern Hebrew, but it's a way of looking at the world. And so Christina, your your answer, I think, was spot on, that we can't avoid having philosophies, we all have our, you know, now we call them unconscious biases, or our consciously developed attitudes. And physiologically, our brains are filtering out things based upon what our subconscious decides is important. And that's all based upon the attitudes that we've acquired. So it's in a sense wired into us. You mentioned Socrates, who is one of my heroes. The whole idea of the unexamined life is not worth living. But even more to the point. What did Socrates do? He asked questions. When I taught high school, when I teach Now I use questions to get people to think Now, of course, that didn't work out so well for Socrates, because he was challenging people to reconsider their biases there. axioms. And that was really annoying. And back, then what did you do to annoying people, you sentence them to death? And I think it was downhill for the Greeks after that. But anyway, um, you know, you, you have an article that I saw about the benefits of asking questions. And that really resonated with me, I wonder if you could share some of those insights with us? Sure. Thank you. First of all, thank you for reading my article. Really appreciate that. And don't wait for Socrates. Because Because Socrates, on his last day, said to the Senate, he said, If you kill me, that's fine. Because one of two things is going to happen, I'm going to get the rest and sleep of that I've always wanted in my life, or I'm going to be sent somewhere. And there's going to be other philosophers. And I'm going to be able to talk about this for eternity. So I'm good. That's how that was his attitude. So the the article that I wrote, you know, I was I really am enjoying the marriage between philosophy and science. And I I'm so loving this relationship, and what the sages have known all along, is now being proven scientifically and psychologically. So the notion of the question is actually, from a philosophical standpoint, it's one of the most disruptive forces in the universe, everything that we know about ourselves, space, anything has all started from a question, but the benefits of asking questions from from a neuro standpoint, first, there have been studies, this is all from studies that have shown that when you ask a question in your mind, you immediately stop multitasking. So if you are in that sort of like rumination, circular thinking, you know, mind going a mile a minute stop, and either ask like what's happening right now? Or ask a question related to what it is that you're ruminating about and immediately all of the the noise stops you cannot multitask on a question. The second thing is that asking a question actually triggers certain areas of the brain that release serotonin, which is a mood stabilizing hormone, ido and Margaret it you would know more than me, the that part of it, but so when you ask a question, it's supposed to bring you ground you and bring you some clarity and kind of center you. So that's another benefit to asking questions. The third thing is that questions lead to intentions which lead to outcomes. So there was a study around people who had a goal in mind. And they had these people actually start their process by asking questions of themselves of their process. And the number of people who actually achieved that goal, or did that task was 35% greater than those who were, you know, in the other group that weren't given questions as a framework for approaching, you know, that goal. So, if you want to do something, ask questions about it. And so those are the three ways that questions can actually benefit us. And I start my day with a question. And you know, and it's not, what do I want to do today? Or what what do I have to do? It's what does the world for me now? It's an expansive question. And it puts me It relaxes me, it opens me up, it gives me a broader frame of mind about my day. And it's five minutes to completely turn your morning from frantic to focus, and free. We have a an acronym for ethics that we've used a number of times. The is empathy, the T is trust, the age of humility and the eyes, inquisitiveness. So we really feel that if I'm not curious, then I'm not open to the information and the wisdom that is available to me. And if I'm not open to information, if I'm not open to new insights, new ways of looking at the world, I can't be an ethical person. Because I'm not allowing myself access to everything I need to make responsible decisions. Does that align with your message when you do your counseling and your consultant? It absolutely does. I love that how you broke down that acronym. I think that's what Yeah, courage on the S is self discipline. Yes. Amazing. That's amazing. So you know, Socrates said, I know that I know not. And that's what makes me wise. And I think when you are in that, that space of I don't know, I don't have the answers. The answers up here. And it's like, when you say, Oh, I know everything, or I know this, your minds like, Okay, great. You know, it awesome. And it just completely shuts down any opportunity for new information to come through. With regards to ethics, you know, it's interesting, when I when I work with people, the word ethics is not in in the vocabulary, the aspects of ethics are in the vocabulary, like the empathy and the trust, and the inquiry and courage and like, all those principles of ethics are part of the conversation. And I feel like people don't realize like that ethics, as a genre, for lack of a better term is is applicable to them, because the only experience that they'd have had they've had of it, if they've had any has been from a legal perspective has been from a compliance perspective. It's, you know, don't bribe people, basically. So I think that the that ethics as a term and as in the language around it has so much more opportunity for people to connect to it. Absolutely. So out there, we have lots of people who are working in systems where there's ethical challenges, we hope, because if not, they're not noticing. I work with a lot of individuals, teams and organizations where there's a serious ethical breach, and there's laws, broken people going to jail or lawsuits where they paid out a whole lot of money. What would be a question that anybody can begin with in terms of addressing this at work, whether they're an employee or the owner, where do they start? So I know, this may be terrible. Maybe. This may be I may, I mean, for me, I have no idea If I were to ever respond this way if I would get shown the door or not, but the thing that's coming up for me right now is where did we go wrong? And I think that's a great way to solve. Okay, great. I wasn't sure I do that all the time. We have town hall meetings. And so what went wrong? Right? I think, politically correct. We're afraid to look at it mistakes are golden. Yeah, I also feel there's something behind that. Where, which is creating a dynamic that is conducive to being okay. With, where did we go wrong? You know, and, and so, actually, that's probably where I would start is ask questions about the appetite and threshold of, or desire to even have that conversation. And so that's actually where and then I would say, then I would say, you know, let's, and, and it doesn't have to be pointing fingers. And it shouldn't be pointing fingers. It's, you know, having an understanding that external circumstances and internal conditions met in such a way that completely just bottomed out, and choices and decisions were made based on information at hand, and perhaps some, you know, exploiting of a lack of information. And like, let's analyze that, like, let's take the personal out of that diagnostic. And I think that you can then have a more honest conversation about where we went wrong, was it I think that's one of the problems people often, as the rabbi said, in his TED Talk, they have these automatic ideas, we are ethical, and then they don't revisit it. And if there's a problem, they blame one person rather than the system. And they pick that person and they cancel them. We don't kill people so much anymore, but we sure can kill them in social media and and reputation can't wait. And sometimes there's ego that just, you know, we say that egos an acronym for elbow God out. Then there was, you know, what, I always go back to the 12 step recovery programs, which start with recognize this something greater than yourself. If I see myself as the center of the universe, then one, I'm going to feel superior to everything around me. And to in some way, I'm going to feel vulnerable, that I know, I know, I don't really belong there on a subconscious level. And therefore, I feel that I have to protect my reputation, I have to protect my self image. And I can't ask questions, because then I'm exposing myself as being vulnerable. And I can't accept criticism because that makes me look bad. King Solomon says that a righteous person falls seven times. There's a Chinese proverb that says fall down seven times get up eight, now you can we can discuss who got it from whom but in any case, the point is that the righteous person becomes righteous. by falling down, it's the mistakes that teach us how to do better how to improve how to become stronger. And if we would think about it without the ego, why would we want to deprive ourselves of the growth that comes from challenging ourselves from experimenting and from setting higher and higher standards. And this is why everyone should read Cristina de jokkmokk book. And I'll put it in the it's wise up at work. I am putting the link again, in the chat. She talks about things in such a practical way. And it takes away the shame from mistakes and makes it an exciting thing almost I thought, I thought you did a really fine job of inviting people to be comfortable exploring the ethics and moving forward. So Sue had a question for you. She wanted to know, a contrast or examples of real life examples perception, versus she might what you might advise. So if you would mind giving us some real life examples of some of the aha moments where people started and where they ended up. Okay, I think I understand the question. I'm not making your own. No, fair enough. So I was, you know, I was working with a CMO. And, um, you know, one of the challenges that he was having was the whole like, I can't get people to do what I want them to do. Right. Why? Why are people who To me, like, Why are there mistakes all the time people aren't doing what I tell them to do. And, you know, really, it was just a matter of observation, because I saw it right away what what the issue was, that's not the work, the work is, is really connecting, what his perception of what is happening versus the reality. And I know that there's this kind of idea of perception is reality. I don't prescribe to that idea. I think their perception is an interpretation of reality, but it's not reality. And so I had to take him through a process through coaching through meetings through, you know, getting, you know, just the same sort of, you know, process of really discovering what exactly was going on, you know, the difference between, you know, what, what I do is, I bring in a third person in my work, and that is the philosopher. So, based on what he's experiencing, I bring in Voltaire, or I'll bring in Emerson, or I'll bring in Socrates, say, okay, read this, what is this saying to you? How are you seeing this outside of you? And this begins the dialectic and the dialogue that got him to realize, oh, maybe I should not always be telling people what to do. He got that just through this, you know, that work. And he began to stop telling people what to do, and start being more helpful. Like, instead of I need you to do this, it's, how can I help you today? You know, and he became of service, as opposed to command and control. And what happened was he there was an employee review. So he got much higher marks in his employee review than he did the previous year. So there was progress there. So that's an example I think of, you know, someone's perception versus the reality. And what I did in order to get them to closer to what it is that they really needed to do and how they needed to approach things. Did that help? Oh, yeah, yeah. And I think you said, you framed it very nicely when you said that perception is not reality. But perception can drive reality, the more we perceive things to be a certain way, the more we end up, creating that reality, because we think that's already the way things are. And so what you're offering is, is a form of self diagnosis, using this wisdom that's available to us, with a facilitator who can help us sift through the countless pages and books of philosophical thinking that's out there. And such as for businesses, it I mean, this can really help us in our personal lives as well. Yes, my boyfriend is very happy that I'm a philosopher. I just have to, I have to say, you know, like, we don't argue, like there's no, you know, I just ask questions about how he's, you know, how things are going good. It's great. It really I mean, I'm telling you, philosophy changed my life completely changed my life. And I was total disaster. Like, I do not believe ever, you are total disaster. But I do think asking questions and listening. So the Robert and I talk a lot about ethical leadership, and ethical communication. And I think you're demonstrating it, that sometimes the best way to be a leader is to ask the questions. You know, everyone who has been listening knows that my father often wouldn't give me the answer, which I thought was so rude when I was a kid. Now, I think was so wise, you know, I get beat up or something like that as a little refugee. And he say, so what's your plan now? And I'd often say, this is my plan. I'm in your lap. I love you. This is a done one and done. But he would say what are you going to do now? And asking that question, I think empowers people. And you have done that. What is the killer to any intervention? So I'm putting in the question one, the one question what is it that stops people from being able to do what you're subscribing? I'm so glad that so many can be so much. I think it's really just a little Lack of openness. Okay? Honestly. You know, as I mentioned before, the mindset of like, Okay, so this is something that grinds my gears. Can I just tell you, it's called? It's called the Yeah, but. So, the Okay, so it's like, cheering like, okay, you know, let's think about things this way or that. Yeah, but I did that already. Or Yeah, but that's not really going to work or Yeah, but like, so it's that Yeah, but thinking grinds my gears, and then just that whole, like, I know, I know that which is, you know, just the lack of openness to being amenable to all an alternative way of looking at something. Because clearly the way that it has been looked at isn't working. Therefore, I'm, you know, there for a reason. Yes. Right. Yes. So I'm going to say, as a psychologist, we love the year, but when you get someone being defensive, you go ha, now, you know, we're, we're, we're having this flashlight pointing, you know, we want a lantern of truth. This is a pinpoint flashlight, letting us know, what are they being defensive about? Why do they have to Yeah, but I have a series of blogs I'm writing called big butts and lies. And I'm gonna have to quote you on your Yeah, but that I like that grinds my gears. I'd never heard that. Would you get that expression? By the way? I think it's old timey. I like grinds my gears. That's, that's very descriptive in it. And I think that's exactly it if we can get to the year, but I think we've got really close to the solution. So I think I think that's wonderful. Um, so Sue says, Yes, you're helping people find the real source of issues. I do believe that that is the secret sauce that you have. So rabbis, is this a good time, sir, for the word of the day. I believe it is. Alright, Rabbi, and I'm going to do something I don't usually do, which is introduce the word of the day with a story. A high Love is not one of my stories, but a story a parable. Imagine that you are at a baseball game. Imagine that we're back going to baseball games. I don't know if we are not yet. We are we are. And you're you ask the person next to you. If he asked the time. He's so involved in the game. He thought you asked, What's the score? So he says five to one. Now as it happens, it actually is 1255. It actually is five to one. So philosophically, do you know what time it is? Now, this is sort of a tree falls in the forest type of question. But what it does is it cues us in on the importance of what's called epistemology. epistemology is the study of how we know what we know. And if I come to the right answer, through incorrect reasoning, or incorrect means, does that compromise the knowledge that I have? I may have the right facts. But I haven't gotten there through the correct process. And while in a utilitarian way, it may not make a difference now because I know what I need to know. But in a more comprehensive and more universal and more philosophical sense, I may actually be putting myself in a dangerous situation, because I'm relying upon faulty foundations. So I thought this was a wonderful word for Christina while you're here, because this is what philosophy can do for us. Help us understand the process. The way in Judaism we study the Babylonian Talmud, which is hundreds of years of discussion. And often we don't get to a conclusion, because that's not the point. The point is to learn to think, to learn to reason to learn how the process of understanding and acquiring wisdom can be developed and can apply to our lives because the same as the old cliche if you give a man a fish, he has food for a day if you teach him to fish, he has food for a lifetime. If you learn give somebody data. He has what he needs right now. But if you give a person the understanding of how to Think then you've prepared her for a lifetime of thinking and acquisition of wisdom. Great word. They he picks the good ones. Alright, so now madam Cristina, de Giacomo, what is your final bit of wisdom for our viewers and, or a call to action? First of all, I'm so honored that epistemology was the word of the day I, I just am, I love it. Um, you know, I just want to give everyone one of my favorite quotes. And it's really helped me when I remember it. I think we live in times where sometimes we can feel pressure, where we can feel like a lot of forces are sort of imposing their will or imposing themselves on us. And a lot of times we feel like we have to react unkind or we feel very reactive to things. And that happens to me too. I'm not perfect. And this quote comes from Shri Shanti Ananda Saraswati, who was the Shankaracharya of India in the 60s and the Shankar Acharya is considered the holiest of holy men in India. So very, very revered distinction. And he said, The sage, and we are all he meant, we are all sages. You said the sage acts without pressure from within or without. And any anytime I feel anxious, I remember on the stage, and I act without pressure from myself, or pressure from other people. And that really helps me feel centered. So that's wonderful. Wow. Very good. Fire to that. Yeah. Well, the rabbi and I are incredibly grateful that you joined us, I think you certainly have a lot to offer everybody. We've got the book link in there. We're going to be posting this video we wish you well, we hope you join us again, some time on this podcast. Where can people find you, Christina? So you could go to two places I have www but philosophers counsel calm. I have the links already in Oh, okay. Or my, my other company morale, Comey calm, and I'm on LinkedIn, I love I'm very active on LinkedIn. So definitely remove me on on LinkedIn. And I just I'm so grateful to you, to you both for having me on. And so what a lovely conversation. And I just want to say hi to everyone out there and sending everyone lots of love and hugs. Oh, well, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. Thanks for joining us. We look forward to seeing you again. Robert and I are going to continue our conversation on our own and invite everybody to please join us in conversation. Thanks, Christina. Thank you, Christina. All right. Wow, Rabbi, we did good and picking her thank you that was a worthwhile conversation to have, wasn't it? You know it? I think it it kind of puts together all the things we've been asking people to do. Think about their philosophies, think about ethics, think about where they move forward. If there's a booboo, you know, a little mistake, how to be better and help others be better. So what what do you have to offer on this philosophically? And then I'll offer something practically. I'm actually two thoughts. The first is that this is a this larger discussion that I've been developing for a while they're they're actually eight words in Hebrew biblical Hebrew translators, some form of happiness or joy or exploitation. And one of those words is Elisa. And it translates has an interesting translation. It means to depending on how it's used either to apply pressure or to relieve pressure. And the last comment that Krishna made about the sage is one who feels no pressure from within or without that perhaps that's an ideal that very few of us are going to achieve. Sometimes we need some pressure The deadlines approaching, I need that kick in the pants to get me moving. And sometimes when I feel really pent up, and I can relax a little bit, then that release of pressure is what actually gets me moving. And that sense of forward motion is what joy and happiness are really about. So when I need if we can sort of channel the pressures around us, it's kind of like putting your foot on the gas or using your foot off the pedal. Sometimes we need a little bit of pressure to get us moving. Sometimes we need to know to know when to let that pressure release so that we can be free to move ourselves forward. So the first idea that I thought, what did you find of interest? Well, I like mostly the idea that Christina brings forth that you've got to start somewhere and asking questions, to in some ways take the pressure off of finding solutions. So I think that when we go straightforward, a solution to a problem, I think we truncate our thinking and the process of growth, we truncate our curiosity, I think we have to ask the questions what went right, what went wrong? What are resources? Like a SWOT analysis? You know? What did we try? How did it work with didn't work? Who are our advisors? Did we use them well enough? Did we listen to them? Because let's face it, the world of ethics for many people isn't just about compliance. This is the kiss of death, really. But that's what many people call me. they've, they've had an oops, and then I'm the one that's going to help them be part of the solution. So they don't get sued more, or that they look like they're remediating the way they were told to remediate by lawyers, or their professional boards or by the law. And I think that asking the questions, when we mess up, hopefully, for we've got the right mindset that you and Christina and I all adore, which is Huh, what did we learn? And how do we do this better next time? And of course, that was a great mistake. What would we learn? And, and putting words to what we think is unconscious? So I asked everyone in the audience, what is one question, you're going to ask yourself, about your philosophy? And are people clear about that philosophy, and you can have a philosophy about fun, you can have a philosophy about work, you don't have to have an overarching philosophy that's overwhelming. So ask yourself, you know, even like, we're doing homeschooling at home, my my daughter, and granddaughter and I. And so I asked myself, What does she need to learn here? And what the heck am I going to do to facilitate this? So sometimes I'm clueless. I'm the reluctant homeschooler. What, you know, asking a question that helps take the pressure, as Christina was saying, is that that pressure can be the killer of curiosity. So that's what I had to say to that. I really like that. And I like that. And then, you know, it ties in with so much that we do talk about just that shift in mindset, that openness. Christina talked about that yes. inquiry, the willingness to admit that we don't know something, we may have gotten something wrong. And the other thing she said that really resonated with me was the Yeah, but yeah, that's in lies. Right, right. Well, because one of the greatest catastrophes in Jewish history came about just that way. How so? The Jews had received the Torah and Mount Sinai, they headed through the desert on their way to the land of Israel. They got to the border. And they wanted to send in spies. Let's send people into investigate, to see what we're going to be facing when we want to go in. And Moses gave them direct directions, which need some interpretation to fully understand, but they came back. And they said, it's a land. It's indeed a land flowing with milk and honey. But that but really meant disregard everything we've set up until now. And, you know, the commentaries say there, that a good lie, is all you know, it starts off with the truth. They praise the land. That's what they were setting to do to talk about the virtues of the land and the merits of the land. But they were so insecure in their own ability and ability, the Jewish people to succeed, to conquer to thrive, to establish themselves, they let those features overwhelm their perception of all the good that was waiting for them. And they and the people themselves were suffering from those fears, that insecurity, what if it goes wrong? What if we can't live up to the expectations? What if things don't turn out the way we were, we were hoping they will that fear of the unknown, that insecurity in themselves, led them to say, we're going to give up, we're not going to go in, we're not going to give it a try. And then in the end, they ended up wandering 40 years in the desert, the whole generation died off before they were allowed to come in. Again. So when we when we use that word, but it can be absolutely devastating. Because we are, we are negating the value of what's come before and we're setting ourselves up to give in to that fear that guarantees we will fail. And that fear that invites shame and blame. And I think the minute that we're living from fear rather than curiosity, or excitement about doing better, is the minute that we really do stop growing. And you know what, as Christina had said, All we have to do is say, so where do we go from here, and just start over every moment to do over. And I don't think that if you have a terrible philosophical life, and at the age of 90, you can't grow. I don't believe that every day is a do over, we can change things. We have to acknowledge where we've been. But I think everybody can do that. So ask yourself, What is your philosophy? And how are you going to move forward? And that's all I have to say about that remote? Well, I guess that is the last word. By all we will see you next Tuesday on the rabbi in the shrink at 1230. And wait to see we have as a guest. Sometimes we have a guest and sometimes it's just the rabbi Nye interviewing each other. So come join us and elevate the conversation of ethics so that we can make a run on Curia. Thanks, everyone. And thank you, doctor. Thank you and thank you, Rabbi, as always, bye