The Rabbi and The Shrink

#30: Michael Patrick Mulroy - A Mission to Promote Virtue Ethics

September 23, 2021 Rabbi Yonason Goldson and Dr. Margarita Gurri, CSP Episode 30
The Rabbi and The Shrink
#30: Michael Patrick Mulroy - A Mission to Promote Virtue Ethics
Show Notes Transcript

#30  MIchael Patrick Mulroy - A Mission to Promote Virtue Ethics


What are the core values that drive collaboration and success?

How do we confront ideologies that rationalize violence and tribalism?

What is the ultimate formula for promoting accountability?


These and other foundational questions are addressed in this fascinating discussion when former U.S. marine, Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for the Middle East, and retired CIA Paramilitary Operations Officer Michael Patrick Mulroy joins the Rabbi and the Shrink.


https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-patrick-mulroy-31198b52/

https://www.loboinstitute.org/


Show notes


2:00 Inspired to serve by 9/11

Identifying the root causes of conflict


4:30 Lack of economic opportunity

The crisis of child soldiers


7:30 Toxic ideology makes it possible to rationalize evil and not easily defeated

Children are compliant and easily indoctrinated

Increasing tribalism pits us against each other


10:30 The ethics of stoicism

Wisdom, courage, moderation, and justice

What’s good for your soul is worth more than anything else

Stoicism as a guide to virtue ethics


13:00 Be accountable to yourself

A legal system is only as effective as the people’s commitment to uphold the law

We lack clarity of what our core values are


19:00  The increasing legitimacy of vigilantism

Teach ethics and virtue through models of self-sacrifice

The true benefits of diversity


23:00 Understanding human nature prepares us for an ethical life

Managing the conflict between opposing elements of our nature

How do we conquer our inclination to do evil?

When we struggle against evil, we become stronger in our commitment to be good

Life is made up of tiny moments that add up


30:00 Where do we start?

Stoicism means to take life as it comes

Study the story of Zeno

Read Meditations by Marcus Arelius

The Jewish leader Rabbi Judah and Marcus Arelius


37:00 Establish stoicism as a guiding philosophy in the military

Support grassroots movements to confront child soldiers

Demand accountability from elected officials


41:30  The word of the day: Panglossian

Superficial, Pollyanna view of the world

However, if we accept that reality is what it is, then we can focus on changing ourselves, which is the most effective way to change the world


45:00 We can be one step away from amazing



Margarita Gurri:

Welcome to the rabbi and the strength. I am Dr. Margarita Gurri, known as Dr. Red shoe, and this is also my favorite rabbi, and today we have someone who's changing the world. It's Michael Patrick Mulroy, and to make life easier, he is MC Welcome, sir.

Michael Patrick Mulroy:

Thank you. I'm looking forward to our conversation.

Margarita Gurri:

Why so are we we're very excited about it. Mc is bringing back not only the idea of stoicism in the military, but he's working on ending conflicts and helping those affected by the issue of child soldiers. He has a website with a Donate button so that you can help and I'll put that in the link. But he's been a big shot the Deputy Assistant Director of defense, Undersecretary Mattis, which is amazing. He was in the CIA. He's a decorated marine. And more than that, he's an advocate for child soldiers. And for what's good and right in the world. Welcome, sir.

Michael Patrick Mulroy:

Thank you. I think that some would say that indicates I can't hold the job, but it's trying to change the world.

Margarita Gurri:

I don't think you're trying I think you're actually saving the world. I think you're actively doing what most people want to do. You've somehow managed to do it. I love your initiative, why don't you tell us how you go from being a Marine, to now doing all of this amazing stuff with tell us a little bit about your journey, sir.

Michael Patrick Mulroy:

So I enlisted in the Marine Corps, close to right out of high school, and then really liked it. It was appealed to me for several reasons. Then I became an officer, and then I was recruited into the CIA. Right. So didn't know anything about it until it happened. And then right, during training 911 happened. And, you know, it was obviously an emotional thing for all Americans, and, but always at the training site at the farm, what had happened. So we watched the buildings come down, together. And quite frankly, it was really something that we all accepted as a massive intelligence failure. So for somebody who's in the CIA the time, you know, it was it was on us to make right. And so I spent my whole career, I was what's called a paramilitary Operations Officer, which is a long term for basically the special operations side of the CIA. And so I spent almost all my career and complex Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Somalia, Libya, places like that. So you know, through that, obviously, our job there was more of a combat and not one trying to end it. But me as well, as well as my partner, Eric Oelrich, who was a navy seal. When we got out, we wanted to do things that lead more toward the ending of these animals complex. And getting at the root of the issue, which is many times is poverty. And so that's what we want to focus on. So we work for ABC News. We were PR several think tanks and, and that's, and that's what we do. And then part of part of that is the issue of child soldiers, which you've already mentioned, because we became intimately familiar with the plight of these children, having served in so many of these places, and we did a documentary on one and really became close with them. So that's an issue that, you know, I hope we can talk about today, because it's it's one of those issues that I think everybody wants to get behind. But there isn't, there isn't a lot out there. And so we can talk about that war.

Margarita Gurri:

So we'll start off with our, in in our viewers, we have Malcolm Hussein, thank you for your service. And I know all of our viewers, thank you for your service, sir.

Michael Patrick Mulroy:

Thank you. Thanks for saying that. I appreciate that.

Margarita Gurri:

Yeah. And so the documentary for anyone who wants to know, I'll put the name in the chest called. Oh, I just I just erased it.

Michael Patrick Mulroy:

I sent him this guy.

Margarita Gurri:

Yes. I'm just trying to put the link on here there. Oops, I put the wrong link. I'll get it right. Um, but I think that now you're you have somebody Mark Sullivan, who's making it into a book. So please tell us what do we need to know about ending conflict and keeping our children safe? What do we need to know?

Michael Patrick Mulroy:

So the first part of any conflict, and I did references, I mean, many of these places there is zero economic opportunity, zero. So the young men in particular, when they have zero economic opportunity, and in a way ahead often join extremist groups to be quite frank and that's in every culture and every religion and every Every Society of we've ever had on our Earth, so it's not unique to them. So one of the things is, is we're going to have to try to change the situation on the ground in places like Yemen and Syria. So I mean, I know that's a pretty lofty goal. But it's it's a goal that we all should have on the issue of child soldiers. It has I think, we blessed paper we did. We cited the United Nations. The issue has doubled in the Middle East in one year. So in 2019, the number of children being forced to be soldiers doubled. Worldwide, there's about 100,000 kids that are currently under arms.

Margarita Gurri:

That's horrible,

Michael Patrick Mulroy:

right? I mean, warfare is bad enough, but if adults are going to starve them, adults should fight is what I say. And these kids essentially have, you have no option and they're in there. They go there to try to raise money for their family, or they're actually abducted. And the documentary did was about kids that were actually abducted, they had no choice. And the Lord's Resistance Army, which is the, which is the army that we did a documentary on, they became infamous because almost their entire army was made up of children. Oftentimes, there's children in an army, but they don't compose the almost the entirety of the army. So the Lord's Resistance Army was one that was infamous for that. That's that. That's just terrible.

Margarita Gurri:

So the majority, Oh, go ahead. I'm sorry, robot.

Yonason Goldson:

Thank you. Thank you. One of the ideas that I've given a lot of thought to over the years was when it comes to conflict, very few people wake up in the morning, thinking, I'm going to be evil today. Most of us rationalize all of our decisions. And when you see people in conflict, no matter how brutal it looks, no matter how one sided it looks, each party probably has some justification for why what I'm doing is okay. And when it comes to this sort of abduction and trial soldiers, it's awfully hard to get inside the head of the people who are perpetrating this, to understand how can they rationalize this? How can they live with themselves? Is that is that a something that you've you've approached, you've addressed or you've witnessed to any degree? And the answer to that?

Michael Patrick Mulroy:

Absolutely. And it's, it's one of the reasons why, you know, the Global War on Terror, whatever we're calling it today is so difficult to actually win, right? Because it's an ideology. It's a philosophy, albeit warped, albeit one that was essentially made up. Every group like this has to have some kind of ideology to justify their actions, even if they're unjustifiable. Right? So they've created a alternative, in the case of Islamic terrorism, they create an alternative, Islamic, non Islamic worked version, and then they then they essentially, tell their followers, they have to follow them, because it's a higher reason. Right? When it comes to kids, that's adults. And again, this isn't specific to any one religion, we've seen extremist groups in every religion, and a religious. But when it comes to kids, the reason one of the reasons why they're so used is kids have a natural tendency to do what adults tell. Right? Most adults will argue with other adults, most adults will have differing opinions. Kids in general, if you tell them this is what they're going to do, they do. And that's one of them. So hard to get them back out of these types of groups, whether it's like the group already mentioned, where they use this mystical, kind of way to tell the kids that they had to do it because their ancestors were talking to them. And I we go deeper than that, but that was lords of resistance armies in many ways. Or like the Cubs or the caliphate in Syria, where these ISIS orphans are now becoming the next generation of fighters because their mothers and their uncles and all the other adults in their family are telling him it's essentially their lineage, and they happen to avenge their parents. So it's to your point, Rabbi, it's, it's an incredibly difficult, difficult thing to defeat, because you can defeat a person but not necessarily, you know, a philosophy and it's really trying to get to a point where people understand that these are very toxic philosophies, and that it is not the way for them, not just for the rest of humanity, but to that. Part of it's also the, you know, becoming more tribal in nature, I think, is a problem. You know, where it's not about right or wrong. It's about whether my tribe is more successful than your tribe. And I think that's, that is enough. The issue that we're dealing with not only in the places I mentioned, but also right here at home, right. So in the United States,

Yonason Goldson:

it's our politics would become more like that. I mean, we have a word identity politics, but even just, you know, Republicans, Democrats, I think if we would go back and examine what they actually believed in, when they started those parties, what liberal and conservative meant, when those terms were developed, there wouldn't be this kind of acrimony. But as you say, it's become ideological, it's become tribal. And it's very hard to see a way out once you get to that point.

Michael Patrick Mulroy:

And I agree, you have

Margarita Gurri:

come up with a wonderful, comprehensive approach. Please start with the stoicism and the value ethics and what you're doing to try and make a huge difference so that we can help you.

Michael Patrick Mulroy:

Yeah, so when it comes to stoicism I was essentially you know, I was raised to stoic is kind of odd. Some people were Presbyterian, I was I was a stoic, you know, which got a little odd looks when I grew up in a rural part of the South. But my dad taught taught ethics based on on Greek philosophy, and stoicism was the kind of natural part of the Socratic philosophies that I clung to. stoicism, for those who don't know, it is, is what we believe is a direct descendant of Socrates view of the world, it preaches things like, that preaches as bad as long as our religion, it holds the principle to be wisdom, courage, moderation, which is not often talked about quite a bit injustice was the four principles, and it really focuses on on your virtual, you're your own soul, if you will, more important than any material, good that you could ever possess. And it really deemphasizes the material. It's essentially a philosophy that not unlike many religions, but it gives you the ability to everyday wake up and try to do better than you did the day before. Right? So it's, it's a forgiving philosophy, but the whole point, and I've had examples of this, if you say you follow the philosophy, then every day, you're going to be given opportunities to prove it. And if you don't, then you have to answer to yourself, and that's another part of stoicism that they call journalism, but it's basically being honest to yourself, and Marcus Aurelius is probably the most famous journalist, still, like ever, in meditations, if you ever want to read a good, stoic piece of literature. But anyway, so to your point, Doc, I am an amateur. I am not I'm not a PhD or anything. But I became involved in a movement to get the US military to use stoicism essentially as their virtual virtue ethic backbone. It's a natural fit. It's a natural fit for military people. It's not a military philosophy, but it just happens to be closely associated. So myself, Donald Robertson, I would say Lieutenant General, McMaster just did a hand. Georgetown professor who was phenomenal. I'll come back to her name, just did a conference on the issue of Nancy Sherman, Nancy Shara. She's probably the most important thing throughout this matches. She's taught at the Naval Academy. She's really done a lot of work in the area of integrating stoicism into the military. So Nancy Sherman, myself, Donald Robertson, McMaster, General, McMaster, just did a conference really pushing it. I think it's an open door, quite frankly, and most people will military is like, Yeah, sounds like a great idea. So we just have to try to get it formalized.

Margarita Gurri:

I just put her book. She has a book called stoic wisdom, ancient lessons for modern resilience. And I put that in the chat to support what Nick was saying. That is awesome. I mean, what got you started on this mission? I mean, I know you don't call it a mission, but it seems like a mission to me. It's an awesome mission with what got you started on this.

Michael Patrick Mulroy:

So I mean, I've always read about stoicism growing up, you know, it was it was a part of my journal. As I mentioned, some people are, you know, Protestant presbytery or whatever, I was always so excited. So I always read about it. And then as I got out of the CIA, and out of my job at the Pentagon, I had a little more time a little more time. So I read more about it. And then I just got involved. People asked me to write papers on it. And I wrote a I think the first paper was about the need to get back to teaching ethics in school. I think the rabbi might have something to say about that. Because, you know, we don't do that often anymore. You know, where we really make one of the pillars of our educational system. about ethics, not just about science and technology, and math, which all are all important. But I think the paper was spurred by, there was a testicle study on the back that Americans don't consider this unethical country anymore. This is self reflection, right? So that I wrote a paper and I use stoicism as a model to use, there's a lot of other philosophies you could use, but it's just the one I happen to know. And then from there, I just got involved in this really growing movement, I think there's been a lot written about the fact that stoicism is really caught on within the modern world. And we hope to bring it to a lot more people.

Yonason Goldson:

You know, you said one thing there that really resonated with me. And, of course, the whole issue of ethics is why we're here in the first place. And many people can't define the word. Now, even if I have my definition, many others will have different definitions. And this is part of the problem. But you mentioned being accountable to oneself. And that really cuts to the heart of the issue. Because it is definitely helpful and utilitarian, to have a society that holds by ethical standards to have a society, it's interesting in Jewish law. The Torah teaches capital punishment. Yeah, but in order to administer capital punishment, or corporal punishment, you had to have two witnesses. Those witnesses had to have warned the perpetrator. As they saw somebody about to commit a criminal offense, they had to tell him, what you're doing is a criminal offense, you will be punished. They have to know the punishment and tell him and warn him. That's what he was facing. He had to say he had to respond, he had to say, I know. And then do it anyway, within about three seconds. And if you didn't have all those criteria, the court could not administer punishment. And on the surface, it seems ludicrous. Has anybody ever get punished? But the presumption was, you have a society where people believe in the values of their beliefs. And why does anybody commit a crime, because I've lost focus, because I'm in the heat of the moment, because I don't have clarity. And I just need someone to bring me back down to earth into focus. And then of course, I'm not going to follow through. And so the whole reason for having a legal system was not to enforce the law, per se. But to create a structure where people were conscious of the values that they all shared. And so ultimately, it does come down to being accountable to myself, I have to have firm values, I have to know what I believe. And I have to know why I believe in it. And then I have to rise to the occasion. And say, I am going to live according to my values. And it's hard to know what to do. Yeah, and the challenge for us today seems to be that whole structure is disintegrating.

Margarita Gurri:

I think people don't have the clarity about what is expected and what is valued. I think people have gotten into what's good for me, or, or they've gotten into survival mode, and start to to create their own sense of what they need to do. I included I love the name of case for philosopher King. I included that link in the chat if you want to check those of you who are on now. Tell us please about your article because the rabbi speaks always very passionately. And I think that you're saying some of the same stuff. Please talk to us about the philosopher King.

Michael Patrick Mulroy:

As the idea philosopher King, the paper and I already mentioned, it cites the statistics of what Americans think about America and our ethical values now. But at all It pushes want to get it back into schools. I think we've seen I think you all have mentioned a breakdown often reasonably quite frankly, and a lot of elements of society, where people when they don't like the outcome of something, they just take the law into their own hands and if that's if that keeps happening, we don't really have a sign you're a part of being in a society is accepting. Accepting the rules as yours whether you win, lose or draw right? But To your point, I propose teaching ethics in many ways, but through the examples of others. So I, I think I put the paper in front of me, but I use people like Marcus Aurelius, but also modern people like john lewis, and people that we can all agree, I hope, represent people that we would want our kids to emulate. And teach them that way. Because it's also telling a story. And I just personally think people learn better from stories. But so we actually have models of people that we can look to men and women throughout our history, that hold up the virtuals that we want to see in our kids. And it's not just to teach history about facts and who did what, when, but it's, it's their representation, and then doing the right thing, even when that right thing might not have been the best thing for them. Right. So again, using you know, john lewis as an example, when he was almost killed during the civil rights era. But there's examples that we can use throughout our history, when I think that would be one of the better ways to teach ethics to kids, and they would remember it.

Margarita Gurri:

And I like that you are one of the few people when we're talking about ethics that includes women as examples. So we have Abraham Lincoln and Martin Luther King and john mccain and john lewis. Great guys, right. But then you have Harriet Tubman, Mary Walker, Rosa Parks and Jane Addams. Yay, thank you. I mean, why is it we always forget the woman right. And I think that it's important that we get people with various perspectives. When Rob and I were talking about that one of the issues for diversity for us has to do with diversity of thought, and our experiences, obviously inform our thoughts and our thoughts and forming experiences. But thank you for being capturing attentions from a variety of different people teach us how to do it. So thank you.

Michael Patrick Mulroy:

Yeah, you're welcome. And I guess one of the controversial things I do talk about when it comes to philosophy is, it's not just that we want to make sure everybody's included, but we, we absolutely as a society need more female voices in leadership carry? I'm not saying that just to try to make friends with the female audience. I mean, I, I spent my entire career in conflicts, right, and 99 or 100% of those conflicts were quite frankly, caused and decided by men. So we've had a lot of time in the leadership role. And I think that's potentially why human history is simply you're marked by warfare, I think we ought as a society ought to push for the good of society to have more diverse opinions in leadership and teach early women.

Margarita Gurri:

I agree. I agree with that, you know, and I think that different points of view. So one of the goals that Rabbi and I have is help other people listen to other points of view, without being disrespectful or closing our minds. We have sensing from Iowa. I think there are lots of lessons to learn from nature. Is there any special lesson also for you from nature, during your experiences in the military, in the Marines?

Michael Patrick Mulroy:

So nature? What do you mean?

Margarita Gurri:

The same question about how we learned from from nature,

Yonason Goldson:

or Lesbos laws

Michael Patrick Mulroy:

and natural world? Okay. Well, I mean, there's a concept in stoicism that goes back to our Katie, where we get the term where if you're closer to your original nature, you are better off. So I like if that's the if that's what she's asking about. I'm a big believer in that, that can be anything from as mundane as your diet, to your mental health, you know, from, from the military. You know, I just talked to somebody who's writing a book about civility in, in modern society, and she's talking about human nature. It's, and she basically had a much more positive view of human nature than I did. So I know this isn't exactly the point of the question, but human nature is, is really good and really bad. We're one of the few species that actively goes and tries to kill our own species. Yeah. Like systematically. Try to advance technology to do that. Just that. So I, I definitely heard that human nature is, is naturally one of goodness, I think it's both and I think we're almost in a constant. There's a famous quote by Plato and a constant struggle between the two. What are both sides of human nature and so to the point of the question is there things in nature that I see the That, that we should take into modern society or the military. Yeah. And there's things in human nature that we should try to avoid. And I think that's that is this, what seems we desire to be tribal and try to take from others.

Yonason Goldson:

My favorite teachings of the sages is that, at the end of our lives, every one of us will be shown what we call the evil inclination, or predisposition, or our natural predilection towards evil. And a righteous person will be shown his and he will see a mountain. And he'll wonder how did I ever scale that mountain? And a wicked person will be shown a little smudge on the ground. And they'll ask himself, how was I not able to get past that? Right. And it's, it seems so counterintuitive, but what is telling us is that what makes a person righteous is that when the when the when the nature to do evil pushes us, we push back. When we push back, we get stronger. When we get stronger, the nature to do evil has to get stronger, in order to preserve freewill. And so the righteous person over a lifetime, with every, every conflict, every decision point, gets stronger and stronger and stronger and never notice it's developing into a person of tremendous righteousness. Whereas the person who's evil, when when the when the inclination to do evil pushes, he topples over. And so it doesn't have to get stronger. And he just keeps losing the same battle over and over again. And over a lifetime, he just stays right where he is. And if we would simply summon the resolve, not necessarily to conquer evil, but just to struggle with it, then naturally, we would become stronger. And our capacity for good would increase.

Michael Patrick Mulroy:

Yeah, I totally agree. And, you know, for me, it's not. So the person who naturally wants to do good, I think I think that's a good thing. But the person who, you know, is more like the average person who has inclinations to do good or bad, but chooses to do good, there are in many ways more impressive, right? Because they are fighting against that desire to do and then every day they do the right thing. So the wrong thing, I think they do get stronger. And that's, that's where you are at the end of the day, you are your actions. So it is it you know, there's a famous, you know, be who you desire to be, right? So you claim that you want to be this person, you need to be this person. And you know, I, whether it's a little thing or a big thing, I tell you, the other day, we were driving up the mountain around here to go hiking with my wife, and there was a guy, obviously handicap walking down the road going the other direction. And you know, I drove past him, I kind of justified he's going the other direction and letting it out. I was like, you know what I'm about to do a podcast on ethics. I had to turn around. I mean, I literally had to turn around, you know, and quite frankly, you know, we had a certain amount of time to hike in discernment. I didn't know where the guy was gonna want to go. But you know, it's a small thing. You know, it's no, no goldstar moment just to turn around.

Margarita Gurri:

But you did good and doing good. It doesn't matter how big it is. Yeah,

Michael Patrick Mulroy:

I turned around, I drove all the way back and didn't want to ride. Just a point. The point is, you know, you you, you have to hold yourself accountable. And that's a small thing. But even basics, you're going to you're going to be in a situation in life. And I tell this to a lot of my kids in God kids where you're going to have a choice to do the right thing, or the wrong thing. And no matter what the benefit is, the only thing that will matter to you at the end is whether you did the right thing, period.

Margarita Gurri:

Absolutely. So how do we see Oh, go ahead, grab my

Yonason Goldson:

loser you pick the allegory you lose you you choose the beach is made up of countless grains of sand and the sea is made up of countless drops of water in the forest is made up of countless tiny leaves. Life is made up of countless small moments. And every time I have a choice to make. Never say it's too small. Never say it's just not important. Because those little moments add up and transform us in to the people that we choose to be. Absolutely,

Margarita Gurri:

absolutely. So in terms of the practical world. Let's say I have a business, I have a family have a community, and I want to be better and I want to embrace stoicism and value ethics. Please give us some starts. Where do we start with what we think, feel and do.

Michael Patrick Mulroy:

So the first thing I would say because I look I mean stoicism if you just like the word stoic, you know, you think, oh, like this, this this person who doesn't have a lot of emotion, you know, in the negative sense. Well, it's not that. So stoicism, you know, it really pushes to take life as you get it, and not to bow down and if you get knocked down which you will stand back up. So that's what they mean by that. That's the term stoic. It's not emotional. So if you're an emotional person, don't think well, I can't, I can't be a stoic. The other thing is, it's it's generally tied to the military because it was it was the philosophy of the Roman Empire for so long. It is not a military philosophy, that the biggest adherents the biggest pinnacles of stoicism, run from a Roman Emperor to a slave. Epic key. Epictetus was a slave. In fact, his name meant slave. And he is he is held up his highest regard as the Roman Empire of a religious right, Emperor really, so don't look at any of those things as reasons not to do it. And not to become involved and not to read about it. There's a lot of modern stoicism is a group that does a lot of work on it. But I would start with some of the, you know, the core principles are reading about Reno. And I want to like last too long on this, but xeno is a good way that stoicism start, just to shorten the story. He was a very rich person back in ancient Greece, who had all of his belongings on several ships, and he was failing to his new mansion, and they suck. So they have insurance back then. So you went from really rich guy, new guy with a cloak on his back, and he swam ashore. And he, instead of going up to the first, you know, restaurant, if he Well, he walked up and tapped to walk into a bookstore. And the person was talking about Socrates. And he became enamored, even though he just lost everything he owned, he became enamored with the person talking about Socrates. And he asked the person who was talking, you know, where do I find such men. And the guy, he thought pointed at him, but he was actually pointing over your shoulder, and he was one of the faculty students. And so xeno then walked with one of the Socrates students, faculties that already executed by them, to Athens, and he started the schools. So that's kind of the origin story. It is one of the reasons why stoics do so de emphasize. Not that they're against wealth. But they did emphasize the importance of it. It really truly is about the core of who you are. And then there's Epictetus and Seneca. And obviously, Marcus Aurelius is one that are talked about quite a bit. And to your point on the philosophy fatigue, so I use Marcus Aurelius, for a reason. Marcus Aurelius at the time was the most powerful man in the world. And one could argue the most powerful man that ever lived. He was he had the entirety of the Roman Empire, period, anything anything at his disposal, yet he slept on a straw mat. He went with his forces into the field, and ate their rations. And he wrote critical things about himself and his need to be a better person. So, I mean, I use them not because he was better than there's plenty of people that were better than earliest. And he'd be the first one to tell you that, but that he had everything at his disposal and shows that way rather than exploiting everything that he had under his power. So anyway, if people are interested in stoicism, it is not a replace placement for religion or anything like that. So one can be anything in between the fall off militarism. And it it has for me it's been a great model in life

Yonason Goldson:

would like to share a story I was debating whether or not to but I think just love this discussion. It's it's valuable. There's a Jewish legend that during a time when the Romans had imposed a all sorts of decrees against the Jews, one of which was they prohibited circumcision. And there was prominent man, his wife, and they had a boy in there against the Roman decree, they went ahead and they perform the circumcision on the eighth day, and they were caught. A husband managed to escape the wife is caught with the baby. And so the arresting soldier accompanied this woman with her newborn baby to Rome, to be tried in front of the Emperor for violating his degrade and they're in the outskirts of Rome. And they stayed in in in Altru. A story seemed to happen is And there's another there's a Roman no woman there with a newborn baby boy. And so of course, some things are universal, they start comparing babies. And the nobleman says You came all the way from the land of Israel a week after giving birth but would prompt you to do essentially Why didn't have a choice? I'm gonna be standing in front of the Roman Emperor tomorrow and Dr. Why choose slaves? Let's, it's ridiculous. And then Roman number one says here, let's trade babies. You'll take my baby in front of the Roman Emperor. And you'll see that there's no circumcision and the lay you off. That's what happens when front row is ever efference do you divide by violate my degree, as a woman See for yourself. He wasn't circumcised to undergo free came back. The women stayed in touch, they became friends, they became correspondence. The Roman Nova woman's baby grew up to be Marcus Aurelius.

Michael Patrick Mulroy:

Ah, I'm only gonna use that story Rabbi just

Yonason Goldson:

crazy. Sorry. I wasn't there. I can't I can't vouch for its authenticity. But this is part of our our tradition. And the Jewish baby grew up to be Rabbi Judah, the prince, who was the one who codified Jewish law. Wow. And and the history our history records that they were they were of course, bottle corn syrup on it, but they actually became friends.

Margarita Gurri:

Talking about synchronicity. Wow.

Yonason Goldson:

Two wealthiest men in the world. Right. And the two most influential men of their of their generation.

Michael Patrick Mulroy:

Wow, that's a great story.

Margarita Gurri:

That's a great story. Amazing. Well, certainly people can be very kind and resourceful. I do believe at heart. Most people want to do good. And it sounds like make you believe that at your core. Maybe you're not naive about it. But you believe that? So what are the next step? Sir? Let's talk about next steps. And then we'll do the word of the day. What are the next steps for you, for us

Michael Patrick Mulroy:

what needs doing? So on the stoicism? I think the next step for the group and I'll speak it's a it's a collective of people that are all interested in this is to try to get this in the military, our military, US military as something that is a living, breathing, part of being a soldier, sailor, airman or Marine, like I won. And that's only going to come with the adaptation of the stoic principles. We all have ethics in some form or another in the military. But we think this, this ties us to Rome history. So it's, it's not like we just made it up. Yes, last week to give it a cool acronym. This is something that is part of Western civilization, it started at the same time democracy started, right. So it's really embedded. So that's, I think the intent of that is and again, with Nancy Sherman, I, I would say the in our leader on that. And then on the child soldiering issue, we've worked closely with one called grassroots reconciliation group. It's a group that helps the former soldiers in the Lord's Resistance Army get rehabilitated back in society, but that's specific to East Africa. So the eggshell soldiering NGO that Eric and I started, is funded by marks element is international. So it's going to cover conflicts from the Philippines to Syria to the one from

Margarita Gurri:

the Lobo Institute, so I can put that in.

Michael Patrick Mulroy:

Yeah, that's called Incheon. soldiering, it's a it's, it's about to get its 501 c three status. It is funded by the book. So we may able to do stuff now. But it's it is our intent is it's going to be a gold star charity. Nobody receives a salary from the charity, it comes in, it goes to the people that we are found on the ground, that are out there doing stuff that might not have a chance to come back to the United States and resume but that's what they're doing.

Margarita Gurri:

That's wonderful that you're connected with a gold star organizations. That's wonderful.

Michael Patrick Mulroy:

We do a lot with with our own Gold Star families here, quite frankly. Yes, absolutely. And we're going to continue to do that. But I would say that regardless of whether you support grassroots reconciliation group or in Shell soldiering, there's another one called Romeo Dallaire, if you guys saw that movie, hotel, Rwanda, he was the UN General and that he is creating an outstanding organization that deals with kids that have been forced to be soldiers. Any The other thing you could do if, you know, funding isn't, isn't your inclination is demand that your governments adhere to the laws. We have. A law in the United States that specifically prevents us from dealing with countries that have child soldiers. And there's all these un protocols that all these countries have signed on to and then ignore. So I would just say hold your elected officials accountable, saying, you know, look, it's unacceptable to have kids flavours, period. You know, don't starve them don't complain, oh, we probably should in them all. But if we're going to do it, it shouldn't be the kids that are fighting. And that has a huge effect. Because there isn't a politician out there anybody I've ever met? They say, No, I think we should support the use of children with soldiers. Nobody would say that. So we can't we got to stop giving waivers to countries that that do it. And we got to hold our folks accountable. And tell them that as as your representative, do you find that unacceptable that we should give any countries waivers to do something like this.

Margarita Gurri:

And they can find all of this in the logo. institute.org. I put the link already in in the chat. And I think that's amazing. I urge everyone to read the paper as well. And I put the link of your paper. I loved your paper. I thought it was simple to read compelling, very clear. I think people have stoicism in their hearts. I don't think they have the clarity of what it is. And it's more clear, obviously, it's easy to follow. So I think you're doing a great service, sir. Once again, to our nation, and to the world. I think so. Thank you.

Michael Patrick Mulroy:

Thanks, Doc. I appreciate it.

Margarita Gurri:

All right. Good rabbi. Rabbi, I picked a great word of the day for you. Because he thought it would fit I don't even know what it means, but I just put it in the link. Rabbi, this is all your sir.

Yonason Goldson:

Well, when I was a junior in college, I saw a wonderful performance of Voltaire's played Candide and Candide is a disciple of a professor by the name of Professor pangloss. Dr. pangloss. Now the name pangloss. gwass means glossed over to be superficial. Pan means universal. So the name is actually in gum can't Voltaire's cleverness. It represents this this pervasive superficial reality. And Professor pangloss promoted an idea. He said, How many possible worlds are there? One hours, and therefore, we live in the best of all possible worlds. I was thinking of choosing a Pollyanna as the similar type of, of idea, but Well, well, well, Voltaire was a bit of a cynic. There is something a little more substantive to this philosophy. And I think it ties in with stoicism, the philosophy of acceptance of moderation, I'm not trying to make things more than they are different from how they are. It doesn't mean we don't want to improve the world doesn't mean we don't want to improve ourselves. But there's always this tension as part of the human paradox, that we want to accept the way things are, even while we hold on to the mission, the desire the vision of making things better. It's like the the tranquility of prayer. Give me the the strength to endure what I can't change the the ability to change what I can and the wisdom to know the difference. And so to be a little bit Panglossian, I think is useful, I think, I think aligns with stoicism. And at the same time, to never become to never let it devolve into apathy, where I simply say things are the way they are, there's nothing I can do about it. going too far to either extreme as in most things, is not going to serve us trying to find that balance, even though it's a professional tension between the two. That's okay. Because tension generally stimulates growth and progress.

Michael Patrick Mulroy:

I agree. There's, I mean, one of the tenants of stoicism is you know, change starts with yourself, right? That's the one thing you can control. You can't control your political parties and all the you know, all the nonsense that goes on there. But you can change yourself. So and if you change yourself in a way you do change the world because you're a part of it. So I would agree with that the whole war.

Yonason Goldson:

Well, thank you for your service and all the good work you're doing and for spending time with us.

Michael Patrick Mulroy:

Thanks, Doc. I appreciate it. This has been a great cup of great talk.

Margarita Gurri:

And please sir, let us know what we can do the rabbi and I but also the audience. So what can we do to be of service to this amazing Cause it's a global cause and also for our nation. I think it's a good, it's a good thing to focus on.

Yonason Goldson:

And after your last word for us,

Margarita Gurri:

well, I think that the the last word would be follow up on this stoicism, idea. virtue ethics is about character. And we build character one step at a time. One mistake that we understand one faults, as my father once said, when I was very disappointed in myself, I had done something that wasn't good. I forget what it was, but. And he said to me what I'm going to say, everyone now everyone say I'm wonderful. Let me hear it. I'm wonderful. Then I'll say I'm awful. And then you say I'm awful. And then he said to me, get over it. You're both. And I think that the whole point of knowing that the human condition is about falling down, getting up again, falling down and getting up again, it is a constant. Action is not even just a struggle. It's just the way it is. And we can be one mistake away from amazingness. Right. So I, I urge everyone to donate, we have the links. I urge everyone to know that they can be the best they can be. If we understand stoicism, we can behave in a way that feels like we're on to a shared mission. And I think it's better than being all alone. So thank you, everyone for joining us on this mission. This is Dr. Margarita Guri. And this is Rabbi Jonas and Golson and we're here with Nick Mulroy. Thank you for joining us, and we'll see you next Tuesday at 1230 at thank you all