#34: Scott Mason - Create a Circle of Laughter

Is it possible that we share responsibility for how others treat us?

What signals are we sending out that promote or allow them to treat us badly?

Can individuals with foundationally different values connect civilly and cordially?

These and other profoundly relevant questions are addressed when speaker and podcast host Scott Mason joins The Rabbi and the Shrink.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/smason1/

https://www.purposehighway.com/

1:00 People are responding to alienation by seeking meaning and purpose

Progress and purpose -- the source of happiness

You cannot pursue happiness

3:00 Make connections to build communities

Love emerges through giving and committing ourselves to a common purpose

A flame gives without giving anything up 

We should influence one another in a way that we improve one another

8:00 It’s a moral imperative to contribute light to the world

A lack of clarity or belief holds us back

Recognize your gifts so you can give

10:30 A leap into the unknown changed everything

A ride in the dark and the rain produced a service mindset

A new perspective brings new opportunities

Do we listen when we hear “the voice”?

The profound power of humility and opening ourselves to new possibilities

16:30 Be Theseus -- meet the challenges that will make you a hero

Get out of the comfort box

Build a circle of laughter and joy

Why is a safe place a place of terror?

21:00 Fight fear with fear

The power of shame

Recover balance to make the right decision by looking down all roads

23:00 Viewing the world as hostile makes us hostile

Embrace the challenges that are beyond our control and respond with what we can do with them

Radical accountability turns us into positive extremists

What signals are we sending out that promotes or allows them to treat us badly?

Is it possible that we share responsibility for how others treat us?

32:00 Irreconcilable differences?

Can individuals with foundationally different values connect civilly and cordially?

Absolute truth is truth, regardless of whether we like it or understand it

Living in a world where we don’t all agree on truth, we have to recognize the sincerity and good intentions of those with whom we disagree

37:00 Belief in our own soul is transformative

The nature of the universe transcends our ability to comprehend

Respect facts, logic, and reason

Seek commonality of belief and humanity before focusing on differences

Don’t be afraid of uncomfortable conversations

If you personalize every belief, you will find it impossible to coexist with others who have different beliefs

We need to disagree honestly in order to grow and be willing to revisit our beliefs

45:00 Befriending “adversaries” may bring us condemnation from our “allies”

Every human being is deserving of basic respect

Most of us are doing good things despite our shortcomings or errors

Principled compromise is not compromising our values

49:00  We have to be able to connect and to lead

Leadership is impossible without self confidence in who we are and what we believe

55:00 Word of the day: gorgonize

When we look for the ugliness in others, we petrify our own hearts

Transcript

Margarita Gurri: 0:03

Welcome to the Rabbi and the Shrink This is Dr. Margarita Gurri, the shrink. And here's my favorite rabbi.

Yonason Goldson: 0:10

Yonason Goldson.

Margarita Gurri: 0:12

And the rabbi and I are honored and excited to have with a Scott Mason. Welcome, sir.

Scott Mason: 0:18

Thank you so good to be here.

Margarita Gurri: 0:22

Well, the rabbi found Scott through a friend. And he has this amazing podcast and this amazing worldview. And he has the purpose highway fits right along with what the webinar are trying to do, and working on. So why don't you speak and I could say all sorts of things about you. But when I think you speak so compellingly, and so clearly, to help people think about things in a way to find meaning and connection. So why purpose highway,

Scott Mason: 0:54

I appreciate that, because we are on a road to a future that is unimaginable. It's my thesis, and the thesis of this show, that we are in the middle of a silent revolution of thought, the most profound, perhaps, in the entire history of humanity, but no one's talking about it. And that is a complete change in the way that human beings are connecting to each other, in their search for meaning. The historical institutions that have provide provided people with a sense of connection as they seek their purpose, as they seek an ethical foundation. And as they seek spirituality, are in dramatic shift. Many are in decline, others are utterly and completely changing. At the same time, people are emerging that are creating and forging whole new pathways to find that connection to purpose, or ethical foundations, or spirituality, the future of thought, is with those with the change in the thinking about purpose, ethics, spirituality and meaning itself. People have been feeling alienated. But what I'm trying to do is explore a world where there are new movements, for connection for those seeking meaning, it's a powerful place to be. And that's why I feel so connected to what you are doing.

Margarita Gurri: 2:28

I'm sorry,

Yonason Goldson: 2:29

no, that's fine. I'm in biblical Hebrew, they're eight words, that translated some sort of joy or happiness. And when you look at the etymology of the root, meaning, every single one of them has some connotation of purpose, or progress. And, you know, instead of pursuing happiness, we should be pursuing purpose. Because that will allow happiness to emerge naturally.

Unknown: 3:00

salutely reopen power there,

Margarita Gurri: 3:02

you know, and as a psychologist, one thing I've always said is, you cannot have happiness as a goal. Happiness instead is a byproduct of good choices. It's a byproduct of the way we think about ourselves and others, and the context in which we find ourselves. So Scott Mason, you're on this mission? Tell us about it. What What Can everyone out there? Do we have a fiercely loyal and small audience that's regular, that's live and even more than watch it after? What can they do to join you on this purpose highway,

Unknown: 3:36

I think the first thing that they should do is actually listen to the episodes. Starting with season two, one of the episodes had the rabbi on it, by the way, that conversation got an extremely strong positive response. We have other individuals and epic space coming up, including some you all might know, as guests in the future. And then I think with that begin to look and also listen to some of the guests who talked about what pathways to meaning in a new world might look like for themselves, to be honest, to begin to engage with with each other, perhaps others that are listening to the show that who you can find through social media, and have these conversations, I'm in the process of developing some additional thinking about how the community that has begun to build around this can can crystallize a little bit more so simply by following the show, becoming engaged with others that are walking in the path. And by the way, engaging with people that they meet, as I'm sure they do here on other similarly themed shows to begin to create a community of their own. You're making enormous first steps.

Margarita Gurri: 4:43

Well, it seems to be that you were born to this. You were you have you born with this calling of biracial, LGBTQ child adopted by middle Americans that happened to be African Americans in a mostly white Social media you grew up outside of the any conceivable social box I'm quoting you because I can't say any better than how you wrote it on your website. I mean you read so compellingly sir I think that the whole idea you've been successful in business and in government and everywhere else and so now you're here working on changing minds Rabbi what moved you about his purpose highway cuz I know it struck a chord with you, sir.

Yonason Goldson: 5:31

Well, you know, already I've already talked about the the focus on purpose. Yes, no, yeah. And I go back to, to Hebrew grammar and then language. The word for love in Hebrew is Ahava, which comes from the root hub, which is to give because when we invest ourselves in others, whether it's people communities or purpose, so we become emotionally attached and engaged and beyond that, is related to the word lahav, which means flame. Now, why flame because of flame students about a flame, what is the shape, it's broad at the base, and it tapers to a point. Trees, you have two people that are different from one another, are apart, because the best partnerships is the doctor. And I know best partnerships are people who are not alike. But who I was saying a common sense of purpose, we're going in the right direction, we're going on the same path. And the other wonderful thing about a flame is that it's one of the only things you can give away without giving up. One candle, Goliath 1000 candles, and now you have a whole radiance, of light, without losing anything in the process. And what I've seen from you, Scott is this tremendous enthusiasm that isn't infectious when I was very, you know, I'm a little bit staid, and and reserved, and when I was on your show, I just became so energetic. And, and that's the way it should be. And as we shouldn't rub off on other people, and in ways that make us all better.

Unknown: 7:21

What an incredible statement. It is amazing and interesting, I love that flame analogy I may have to use that credit will be given because it's genius. Whoever, you're one of the things that I believe about relationships, and about connecting to purpose is exactly what you said there's a multiplier effect without didn't munition of anybody. And I actually feel going on to the theme of ethics, that we each have at least one, but probably multiple purposes in our lives. And if we're failing to do everything that is within our power, to be able to become that flame, to spread that light to take those gifts, and those experiences that each of us have had. And then to, as you just said, light tons of candles make the universe brighter, then we've actually made a moral betrayal to the universe. And that's a very serious issue to me, one I take to heart and part of why I feel so enthusiastic about this. Because I do think that this moral imperative happens to merge with the potential for positive outcomes. The amount of flame as you just indicated, that can come from a single count on candle is endless. That's enough to light up an entire universe. If we have the potential to be part of that happening, and sit back and do nothing. Part of the universe being darker is on our shoulders. There's no other way around.

Margarita Gurri: 9:09

So what shapes us, what are the barriers what keeps us from lighting our flame or worse sharing the flame that we have?

Unknown: 9:18

Sometimes I think that it is a lack of understanding of purpose or a lack of belief as to what purpose might be, I always say, for me, at least, the formula to finding purpose is to look at your gift and your experience. Almost bracket those gifts plus experience, then multiply that times service. What are those gifts and experiences for that can provide meaningful service to the universe or perhaps services. And once you have that you have purpose you can begin to walk that journey down the purpose highway By the way, I found that when you Complete that formula and you truly engage. It's almost like electricity goes through you. I used to not be all enthusiastic and excited and, you know, ramped up and amped up like this. It wasn't until I felt truly connected to that purpose that suddenly, all of a sudden, that inner incandescence came through started me shooting.

Margarita Gurri: 10:20

What was the spark for you?

Unknown: 10:27

very personal experience. Oh, come on, I'll share with you actually. Okay, if you're comfortable with it.

Margarita Gurri: 10:34

Yes, sir.

Unknown: 10:35

You are the winner. Thank you. I am very comfortable that I like to I don't, it's personal, but I like to share it because I think that maybe people can learn from it. You know, I am on my fourth career. My third career was, as you mentioned earlier, co owning a business. And at one point, my business partner and I agreed that we had different visions for the future of that company. And we had an amicable split. We also agreed that because his entire professional history had been in that particular industry, whereas I had had other careers before that, it would be best for me to be bought out, and I'd be best positioned to move into something else. But I didn't know what that would be. And I was approaching a later part of my life, and was thinking, Okay, this time, I need to figure out what it is and get it right. And I thought, and I thought, and I thought I had been in business, and I had been in every other professional situation in my entire life, for one reason, and that was to climb the stairs, of financial or status success. That's all I cared about. And for many years, I would even tell you all, I didn't even believe I had a soul. All I cared about I was an empty vessel wanting to climb to the top. This time, I felt, I don't even know how to begin that climb all over again. I had a appointment to go to that was at night, near in Harlem, which is I live on the Upper West Side of Manhattan. That is an easy bike ride away through Central Park, which I happen to live nearby. And it was like I mentioned a few seconds ago, a nighttime appointment, I got on my bike, and I started to ride to Central Park to get that appointment. At that time, I wore glasses, and that night it was raining. And as I was bicycling, in the dark, in the rain, my glasses started to fog up. And as I was bicycling alone there with foggy glasses drenched in the dark, I was thinking, How can I leverage my experience in my skills to get where I want to go? How can I cross that rainbow and get that pot of gold at the end this time? And for whatever reason, maybe because of the fogginess, and the rain and the dark that was surrounding me. Maybe it was some deprivation of senses. A thought popped into my mind out of nowhere, Scott, you're thinking about this room, you're thinking about how can I get where I want to go. Every thought I'd had about professional advancement was about Scott, figuring out how he could get where he needed to go. And I realized in that moment, everything I thought was wrong, was one service was what I was missing. What could I do for others, and I will not lie to you or anyone who's watching this. I suddenly was overwhelmed with emotion, started to cry. There was basically in the dark in the rain fog with glasses I can barely see through crying. Now, fortunately, I didn't crash into a tree. Otherwise, this story might be talking to a ghost and the nature of his conversation will be quite different. But that was a turning point for me. And it's interesting because everything in my life suddenly was if by magic began to shift, I began to attract different people. I began to think and view things differently. I began to approach every conversation differently. And it was almost like the universe whipped out a red carpet and rolled it my way. Opportunities, gifts, humanity itself came through. And my spirit emerged unlike anything I've ever seen before. That's the answer to your question, doctor.

Margarita Gurri: 14:32

Wow, I've got goosies That was great.

Yonason Goldson: 14:35

That's really powerful. And from a theological point of view, you know, we believe that God gives us these moments. That's the the I guess that's not the right metaphor in this story to say the clouds parted because it's more like the clouds surrounded you, but at that point, some people will take the message to heart and will act on it. And other people will just go right back to where they were. And maybe doctor, you have some psychological insight on where these messages come from or, or why some people respond to them and others don't.

Margarita Gurri: 15:23

I think one of the keys is what Scott demonstrated humility, instead of, you know, just thinking about himself and that, and, and thinking, Well, what else can I do these thought he suddenly opened up and said, What can I do for others? And he realized he allowed himself to realize that maybe he'd been off the mark before. And none of us like to be right. I know, Rabbi, and I will we argue we're both just so right all the time, right? We don't want to be wrong. But in that moment, Scott, you opened up to the possibility that you could have a VA, and you started all over. And you claimed a whole new perspective. And you've been, I still have response, and you've been sharing it with everyone ever since. And I am glad because we wouldn't have met you otherwise. So this is cool. It's one

Unknown: 16:06

of the gifts that choosing to walk down that road gave people like you. connection with other human beings, meaningful connections. That's the theme of my podcast. That's the theme that I'm about. It's more precious than anything, anything.

Margarita Gurri: 16:25

It is amazing. Well, what can everyone here do to make sure that they not only ride that purpose highway, but help others along their path? What can they do?

Unknown: 16:40

understand a couple of things. First of all, I always say, speaking of other traditions, be Theseus be the great Greek hero who opted to go on adventures to save others. Life, if you choose to take it can be an adventure, we have to accept the UPS, we have to accept the downs. the mindset of an adventurer, even if we're someone who is a little bit afraid, is one that can take us through the past that we need to have in order to get the experience and develop the resilience that we need in order to begin to walk the pathway. That's the number one related to that I say, picture yourself, if you have this tendency of being in a comfort box. Comfort boxes, great because the superficial markers of familiarity. And this sort of goes as to what you were talking about with your interactions with each other, have the ability to make it seem like you have connection. But when we exist socially within the comfort box, we keep ourselves from having the creative collisions, and the deep, challenging conversations that can build real community once they're resolved. So the comfort box that we draw around ourselves creates the sense the illusion of being surrounded with the reality being alone. And finally, three one thing that I think that you all do beautifully that I've seen so far, and it talks about infectious rabbi, talk about infectious build a circle of laughter, if it's not at the expense of others, if it's not putting other people down, but if it is really creating a shared sense of joy, that circle builds connection, can unity, a sense of inclusion, and helps make being Theseus a little bit easier as you walk down the pathways. And by the way, helps build you into more strong and and respected leader people view those that have a good appropriate sense of humor, as both more competent and stronger. leadership's on material generally.

Margarita Gurri: 18:51

I think humor is a great way for people to learn too. So if my Greek knowledge serves me, and it may not Theseus was the guy that helped kill the Minotaur. Right?

Unknown: 19:03

He was

Margarita Gurri: 19:05

a friend.

Unknown: 19:06

Yep, exactly. amaze.

Margarita Gurri: 19:10

I admit it. Well, Labyrinth, they um, yeah. And so they went through the labyrinth and he was able to, to navigate the difficulties of the dangerousness because you talk about creating a safe environment. Now, all of us have that safe thread and the rabbi been talking about it, and sometimes it's civility, or the willingness to feel like we don't know what we're talking about because we're out of our eyes, you put it out of our comfort bucks, right? So I think that's wonderful. Rabbi, whatever you got to say about that i love i love that.

Yonason Goldson: 19:46

Well, you know, the, there's this phrase that has come into our lexicon recently safe spaces. The Safe Space, the way it's become used, is really a place of terror, or terrified of saying the wrong thing of being misunderstood or misinterpreted. And therefore there's no kind of engagement, there's no passion. There's no growth. And all the things you said Scott, all the Guru's are telling us we have to get out of our comfort zones. And why aren't we doing it? Because it's uncomfortable.

Margarita Gurri: 20:27

and dangerous? Yeah, if we say something, like I said something about Hispanic women, Well, luckily, I'm Hispanics I was allowed to, but I got some grief for it. And what's interesting is we're so quick to judge everyone. If you choose a picture that has a Latin woman that looks this way, or a man that may look that way or, or someone whose gender is fluid. And the question is, we're so quick now to not want to offend people that one way to do that is to cancel other people out. And we've we've talked about that quite a bit. The canceled culture of fear. Yeah, absolutely. I

Yonason Goldson: 21:07

can share a quick story. You know, I, I embarked on a unconventional course after college, when I decided I'm gonna go hitchhiking across the United States. And my mother insisted I take a train for the first leg of the trip, she said, I don't want to find out that you were murdered two miles from home. I said, Is it better to be murdered 2000 miles from home? I don't know. But anyway, apparently a train from Palm Springs, California to Albuquerque, New Mexico. I spent the night in a campground, which is a story different story for a different time. I woke up the next morning, and I was absolutely terrified. The only thing on my mind was, what was I thinking? How did I ever come up with this wacky idea. And I was I was literally frozen with fear. I just couldn't imagine going out and doing this. And what, what, what got me to do it was I had the foresight of telling everyone I knew what I was planning on doing. Oh, the power of shame, exactly. The thought of slinking back with tail between my legs. And confessing that I give it up before I even started. Nothing that could happen on the road could possibly be worse than that. And so this is the theme that I've come to use my keynotes is fight fear

Unknown: 22:42

with fear.

Yonason Goldson: 22:44

We're all afraid that sometimes for good reason. But we can use our imagination to recognize other sources of fear that we can we can balance it out and we can we can retain it, we can recover a certain amount of control over our decisions. So that that initial fear doesn't drive us away from what we shouldn't be doing or drives into things that we shouldn't be doing.

Margarita Gurri: 23:12

Wow. So Scott, from the time you had your soggy, bike ridden epiphany, what were the next steps you took in this breaking out of your comfort zone? Literally,

Unknown: 23:27

I realized I needed to figure out exactly what the connection was between my gifts and service. Ah, and I decided also to do something that I'd never done before. One of the consequences of being raised in the mill you that I was with the specific set of unusual demographic circumstances that I found myself in, by nature of birth and and other genetic disposition was that I viewed the world as very hostile, and competitive. And I viewed it as not being particularly open to opportunities for someone like me, Look, my dad worked for the state, my mother worked for a dog food factory. There were not a lot of expectations for someone like me, my speech teacher told the entire class about me one time, you can teach a monkey how to talk, but you can't teach them how to speak. So it wasn't one of those things where everyone was saying, oh, Scott's going to go to Harvard one day, it was one of those things where expectations were nominal. And because of that, I figured that the only way that I could ever do anything, was punch my way with pile drive my way to where I needed to go through whatever obstacles were in the way, the idea of surrendering of saying perhaps Providence had something for me in mind that I could submit to override having confidence in my abilities and gifts and their relationship to the providential forces that gave them to me. It just wasn't Something that was in my mind. So I had to begin to trust that Providence would the providential river would let me go where I needed to be, and to stop fighting currents that were pushing me in the opposite direction, along with accepting the fact that the road might not be one of my choosing, nor would be the timing, fully embracing that there were lessons that I would need to learn along the way. And that was what began to turn things along with the idea of service. But that was how the process began to change.

Margarita Gurri: 25:37

Wow. Absolutely. Absolutely. Wow, that's just amazing.

Yonason Goldson: 25:43

Yeah, yeah. And you know, when you look back, probably many of us when we look back, and that's certainly your story, Doctor, doesn't start with a nice, easy, comfortable. Growing up, we look back, and we see how blessed we've been for the struggles, and the difficulties and the obstacles, things that we would never have asked for, and would never have wished for, I wouldn't wish on anybody. But having gone through them, we are so much stronger and better position to move forward than we would be otherwise.

Margarita Gurri: 26:21

That's absolutely true. My my favorite Catholic priest, during my confirmation father, one Sosa I knew him before was a priest so I could teach him. And once he became a priest, so I couldn't call him one, just like I can't call the rabbi Yana said, I call him rabbi. I don't know, it's just how it goes. And he would say, again, God gave us our strengths, so we could do his work. But he gave us our weirdnesses our challenges, our foibles, our dislikes, our inability so that we could find the path. And I think that that's true. Because otherwise we don't, they've kind of like steers us there. So there's so many people waste a lot of time trying to work on the things they're not good at and make them good. Rather than ask the question you asked, which is, you know, how do I connect service with my abilities? And I'm assuming by abilities, you're also talking about the abilities that aren't your top abilities. I mean, they're just the list of abilities. So that's cool. What was the biggest challenge you face? Scott Mason,

Unknown: 27:30

the biggest challenge that I faced was really understanding and accepting that the Chartered waters, were not there. And owning that it was up to me to be the one to take that staff to strike the walk, to strike the strike the rock, and have the fees part in whatever way they chose to park. And it was up to me to then walk, radical accountability, as a concept, radical accountability. I will say, and by the way, on the podcast episode I did with the rabbi, he talked about that in a way that was so compelling, and so powerful. That was part of why I felt such a connection with him during that episode, because I felt that was someone that gets it, we do need to be extreme about that. There were times in my career where I really did face discrimination, or abuse, or whatever other bad circumstances that we all face in our personal and professional lives, some more than others. And I think that I probably went through more than many people. So what I have to, and had to accept going forward, I need to be accountable for every single one of them. Maybe I cannot control them happening. I can't control people doing things to me, although sometimes I can, more so than I would be willing to admit. A lot of times I can

Margarita Gurri: 29:10

say more about that. How can we control how people respond to us?

Unknown: 29:16

How are we walking into the room? What are we giving them permission to do? What subconscious signals are we sending? What are we saying that we'll tolerate? Are we afraid to fast back sometimes, when really we need to? Are we firmly saying I will be I will take the consequences for not tolerating this. One time I had a boss I was voted was nominated by a group of my peers to tell the Commissioner of a governor, a government agency that I worked for that a decision that she wanted to make an action that she wanted to take had very dangerous consequences. And when I told her that in front of my staff and the people That had nominated me to talk to her. She said to me, Scott, you know, when you talk, you sound so stupid. If I were you, I would put a gun into my mouth and just shoot. Wow, on the one hand, right? I could say and of course, many years, I felt very, very angry about that I could on the one hand, I couldn't have prevented it. On the other hand, perhaps if I'm to be truly radically accountable. If everyone was voting me to do this, well, maybe I should have examined why my ego was the one that said, Well, maybe I need to be the one out there doing that. Maybe I could have phrased it differently. Maybe the relationship that I had had with her wasn't one in which she felt safe hearing this for me. Maybe I could have said must have talked about this in private, please. Maybe I could have said after she said that. Maybe I could have done a little bit of street theater. Yeah. If you think I'm so stupid, I quit now. Or maybe I wouldn't have needed to be so dramatic. I could have just submitted my resignation privately and moved on. Maybe I could have said something to her. You know, I understand. You might not like what I said, but you don't need to joke about me committing suicide. There were a zillion things I could have done. And it wasn't until years later that I chose radical accountability as a principle that I began to understand. I needed to do something I had failed. Does that make what she said? Right? Does that excuse it? Of course not. But does that mean that I took away my own power my own agency? Did I limit the ability of myself to act in the spirit of of motion on the gifts and things that I've been given? Did I own the map? I'm Scott Mason, I was bringing a law degree years of experience strong social skills and an organized mind into the table that had about that had value for that company. I did not, I didn't. Moving forward, thinking about that every single time wrestling with the angel that way. That's radical accountability. That is the hardest thing to do.

Margarita Gurri: 32:02

It is. And speaking of radical accountability, I mean, the Reverend I always talk about courage and civility are two of the hardest parts of ethics. Something that you two gentlemen talked about the other day, I'm going to ask you to address, you address the issue of the LGBTQ plus elemental P is how I call it when I talk to all my friends who keep adding letters. You and the rabbi being an Orthodox Jewish rabbi. And of course, you have radically different worldviews, and you both are very accountable. So Gentlemen, I want you to do what you said what you talked about before which I loved how you did it, a civil conversation about foundational differences. Ready, set, go.

Yonason Goldson: 32:52

If you don't mind, Scott, I'd like to make two points. And bear with me. I believe that there is a God who created the universe, revealed his will assignment, and who holds us accountable for understanding and here it is, as well. This is not a belief I was raised with. I had no profound theological beliefs, until I'd finished college had done quite a bit of traveling. And I came to the beliefs that I now hold through logic, through study, through empirical evidence, I believe what I believe because I believe it is true. And that's not a leap of faith. It's a belief that I reached through reason. So when, when the Torah, when the Bible tells me something, that's an expression of God's will. I assume that God knows more than I do, that he's smarter than I am, and that he's wiser than I am. And so if there's something in his word that I don't understand, I assume the problem is with me and my understanding, not with him. Even if it may be difficult to grasp, even if it may make me or others feel uncomfortable. And I want to apologize for this. Because I think this is foundational. And so when the Torah says, a man will not lie with a man, there's really no way around that. Second point, however, is that we live in a world where values were beliefs that were once almost universal, are now wildly diverse. And people grow up with all kinds of ideas, values, philosophies, influences, And we are to a large extent products of our environment, products of our experience. And traditional religion, traditional values is, you know, they are in some cases under attack. In some cases not fashionable. And humanity, humanism, egalitarianism, open mindedness, these have become values have been elevated to the level of religion. So I can understand how good sincere well meaning intention people like yourself will come to beliefs that are polar from mine. And I don't have to compromise my beliefs to recognize that you are a person of integrity and sincerity and that you truly believe in your own values. And that gives us common ground that we can be respectful to each other, that we can sit and talk and have a conversation that we can feel a sense of partnership and kinship and friendship. You know, one of the words we've talked about in the past is compartmentalization. It's a human defense mechanism, where I've got one ID over here and one ID over here and I can't let them get too close to each other because they don't play nicely together. And that's okay. And just dealing with this tension managing, it's not going to go away. But managing it dealing with it. There are ways that we can be we can have a civil and a healthy and a adult and in many ways a loving society, even when they're even with people who have very, very different foundational beliefs. Scott, you're witnessing

Unknown: 37:06

so much richness in everything that you say. We could be talking all afternoon, ever knows we ever do a live podcast where we all are in the same room, the podcast will probably never end. It'll be it will be our own version of eternal life. It's interesting. I like you. I actually grew up in a conservative Christian tradition, fire and brimstone church, hell, hell, hell, all this sort of stuff. And then I moved away from it. As I mentioned earlier, I went through a period, I'll go into more detail about it right now, because it's relevant. I actually went through a period where I was stone cold, hard, I would even say borderline, although quietly militantly atheistic. I said, I said earlier, I didn't believe I had a soul. I minute, I didn't think anyone had a soul. But I didn't have a soul. And those who believed they had a soul or a spirit. That was nice. I viewed you as someone that had psychological needs, and you were weak. That's honestly how I viewed it. I have sent through a process, perhaps not so far, unlike what the rabbi just described, lived experience, come to a very, very different place. I do believe I have a soul. And believing that, by the way, was one of the most transformative events of my life. And someday, we ever have a conversation about what it feels like to understand and believe we have a soul when you thought you had none. We welcome that. But we'll need some Kleenex that day. I will say that, with that has come a commonality that I have with the rabbi, and that is that there is a larger universal force. I call it Providence. Some might call it the cosmos of the universe, some might even call it God. That is beyond our ability to imagine if there is anything that I think about or any visual that I use to represent my knowledge space in the universe. I view myself as on a cliff, very steep, but in front of me a massive ocean. And the very edge of that cliff is all of the knowledge that I've accumulated in my life. And that ocean which goes beyond and beyond and beyond is everything there isn't to know and by the way, that potion is of infinite deepness that I would suspect, the rabbi and I have in common, we also based on what I just heard, have a respect for facts, logic, and reason. Why do I raise all of that because irrespective of Are beliefs about any particular point of view. And by the way that includes those that strike most deeply at our heart. There are human elements of commonality. If not everyone believes we have souls, but I'm sure that person and I could find different things in common. But in this case, we have the commonality of some sort of belief in a larger force that's manifesting itself in the universe, and that we are all part of, and it's bigger than each of us. So if we're willing to acknowledge our common humanity, then it is I believe, incumbent upon us to recognize it, and respect it. There are some places a dialogue I have with you about fundamental human rights will not go, I may not like a certain group that's not hurting anyone, I may not believe a thing they have to say, I may think that they are completely ridiculous. I do not believe in genocide against them, I do not believe in persecuting them, and depriving them of fundamental human liberties. Those are lines that I will draw. However, there are that doesn't mean that there's not openness to persuasion around the common humanity. I agree. We are in the comfort box of safety, around conversation, to our own detriment. Because what it does is it divides our humanity. It says, some of us are us. Some are others. And inevitably, words aside, the human condition is such that we prioritize us over them. So there's a hierarchy that automatically occurs within our humanity. And I do not believe any creative force in this universe would create human beings with the ability to think all of whom By the way, could be thinking that they're the favorite ones, looking others down, and then just randomly pick one group to be right, or the ones that are better. So I lay that as a foundational set of beliefs that I have, right now. We live in a pluralistic world. That's the reality, not everyone is going to agree with me about everything. And if you personalize every single belief, if I personalize every single belief, I'm gonna wander around, not able to do anything, because I'm going to be so wounded, no one agrees with you about everything. And honestly, sometimes the more personal those disagreements are, the stronger of an imperative, I have to depersonalized them so long as again, they're not based in just you, you're not even a human being, which I'm not hearing here. The I actually agree with you about the biblical or the Torah, language, it's pretty clear. It says what it says, There are those that make arguments, oh, this was about a different time, or it was talking about a particular sort of relationship between men or, or doesn't mention lesbians on that. So that doesn't count all that sort of stuff, the language was what it was, it's very difficult to get around. However, that doesn't mean I have to accept it. That doesn't mean that I have to reject you for accepting it. Everyone doesn't have to agree with everyone doesn't even have to like me. We could hate each other, and still have great conversations and show respect. That's how society moves forward. I mentioned earlier, creative collisions, hard, difficult conversations, those conversations, those collisions are not going to happen. If we all agree. I view this as an exercise in my ability to hear things and consider and sharpen my own reasoning. If I'm to be perfectly honest, I couldn't sit back and don't believe in smugly sitting back and saying, well, I've Oh, ever I'm gay and and that's who I am. And anyone who says that that's wrong. Well, they just don't understand. No, I actually need to consider are my fundamental belief systems about everything, right? Everything. Am I really being honest with myself, when I say I am, I'm born this way. God wouldn't have made me or the Providence wouldn't have put this way if he didn't want it didn't want me to be that way. I guess if I'm not having that question, especially by someone who intellectually respect I respect at all, then that belief means nothing, a belief that means nothing that hasn't been tested, and worth having a relationship that doesn't test and challenge me, isn't one worth having. I treasure this disagreement, and I don't have a problem with it. I would much rather honesty occur between us that can deepen the relationship and figure out how we can navigate that Then the rabbi just pretending to say what he thinks everyone else wants to hear. There's been a lot of destruction in our society, I think a lot of racism and ugliness is coming out in our society in a way that's particularly toxic, because people felt feel that they haven't had the space to honestly process how they're feeling. So they have to walk around saying this, that and the other that they're supposed to say. And then the minute someone gives them permission to say something, the bile that's built up and fermented, boom, it blows up. And it's a lot uglier than it could have been, if we would have just been willing to share the foundational beliefs and have conversations when they're

Margarita Gurri: 45:38

powerful for both of you. The one thing that I see is, maybe you guys can manage the differences, and I can manage the differences. But what I see in social media, and in this world is when we somehow can be friends, somebody who believes in something totally different than what believe or even will be friend, someone who's against like, Darrell Davis, befriending the KKK, things like that. Sometimes our friends or other people are the ones who say, shame on you. How can you say you're proud and gay? or How can you say you're a good rabbi, if you be friends and body, and I'm sometimes flabbergasted. That is not the thinker. But sometimes there are supporters that are trying to keep them straight, keep them honest. And I don't mean gay and straight. But on the straight narrow with our agenda, Gailey forward moving daily forward and their agenda. So I think that that's, that's one of the things that the rabbi and I have been trying to work on helping everyone, as you call it, radical accountability, we're talking about everyone thinks for themselves, not what other people want them to say, these borrowed ethics don't serve us well.

Yonason Goldson: 46:52

One of my modern day Heroes is Rabbi, Lord Jonathan sacks, Chief Rabbi of England just passed away this year. He passed away, just passed away from from my years long battle with cancer is, too, if you have if you're not familiar with him, please look him up online. There's just endless talks and lectures and discussions. You know, he is he has an interview with Richard Dawkins, co chief or the x rabbi, talking with one of the most prominent atheists of the generation, and they're actually friends. And somehow, he was able to navigate that inconsistency. In the way you expressed it, Scott was just so on target. It was if we, every human being has created the image of God. And that means that every human being is deserving of basic respect. And, you know, unless there are certain lines, but they're few. And most of us haven't crossed them, consciously saying, you know, he says that, you know, in the, in the Jewish dietary laws, you can't mix milk and meat. So there are two types of transgressions. There's a person who says, I like cheeseburgers, I'm gonna eat what I like. And there's the other type of says, I don't like cheeseburgers. But I know God doesn't want me to eat one. And so I'm going to eat it. You don't have too many of those. Most of us are trying to do the right thing. And many of us are doing a lot of good things. Even if we may not agree with each other on every detail. And it doesn't mean I'm compromising my values. It means as you say, We live in a pluralistic society. That means I have to accommodate a lot of people that don't think my way. And I can manage that. Because cut principled compromise is a way that allows us to get along with one with one another, find the commonalities and shed and build a healthier society.

Unknown: 49:21

I will also argue that the challenges facing our species in the foreseeable future are massive. As we all know, we are living in the middle of the most significant public health crisis of all of our lives so far, probably the last century. But anyone who thinks that this is the last time we're going to have a situation of this consequence, I will argue, is living in a fool's paradise. And not only that, but other challenges we have coming up. may well be worse. We have got to as a people be able to do two things. Number one, connect so that the intellectual and creative creative capital that the human race has within it to be able to deal with these can be fully utilized. But number two, we have to be able to lead leadership is also I believe, an ethical issue, when faced with with serious problems. If though, we do not have a fundamental level of self confidence, we cannot lead because we can't inspire people don't follow. It's a fundamental human nature, I don't follow people that don't have self confidence. And that means to me, having self confidence in who I am, and what my beliefs are, I have thought through my beliefs, and I'm just using myself as an example. But I have thought through my beliefs, and I'm open to having them challenged and thinking through them again, not only that, I am a self confident in who and what I am. And when you are truly self confident, there is the ability to withstand arrows, you have a resilience, and that means the resilience to be able to move on and not crumble. If someone disagrees with you about something fundamental. I could reach back and say, Rabbi, You just said that you think the Torah says x, y, z, what does say x, y, z, that's how you interpret it. And that means that you, you are homophobic and point fingers and be all indignant and find superficial power and drama and all of that. That isn't self confidence. self confidence, is saying that person believes what they do. That's cool. I'm not personalizing that that's not about me. I know who and what I am in my core. Now let's move forward and fight this challenge. That to me is confidence. We need it. The stakes are too high.

Yonason Goldson: 52:04

Wow. Bravo.

Margarita Gurri: 52:09

I'm flabbergasted I I'm not often I don't get shut up very often do I Rabbi? shut me up. Yeah, my brother would say now I'm the perfect woman with ideas but no voice There you go.

Unknown: 52:25

That I disagree with what my brother

Margarita Gurri: 52:27

when we were kids now he in fact, he married a wonderful woman with beautiful opinions she's gladly will share with him. That's good. Wow, you guys did good. Um, I'm just so very excited. Here we have discussions about things that are world changing. So I'm going to ask everybody to be thinking about what they're going to do differently. Right now, here's what we do with this part of the show. Very soon. The Robber will give us the word of the day. But Scott, is there one last call to action, or word of wisdom you have for our global audience.

Unknown: 53:10

build a better self build a better world. Our future is now how walk on that providential pathway. Find your purpose. Understand your skills, your experience, multiply it by service. Walk, be Theseus Don't be afraid. Build your comfort box, rip it to shreds And along the way, live in a circle of laughter

Margarita Gurri: 53:46

that's powerful, sir. I'm going to repeat that build a better self build a better world. The future is now live in a circle of laughter I I can't imagine any it being any better than that was brilliant.

Unknown: 54:01

Thank you. That was a show

Yonason Goldson: 54:02

you just how people who are very different can focus in on the same ideas. One of my favorite memes is better yourself better the world better the world better yourself.

Unknown: 54:17

Even better.

Margarita Gurri: 54:19

When we can complain about others when I was a kid, my father would say and what can you do mate to make this better? Let's forget about whose fault is this and you anyway, just say he do. So okay. All right. This is so much easier to complain about someone else. I actually have to look at myself really. That's a lot of work. But I think everyone now has a call to action. Rabbi, I do have a final the word of the day sir.

Yonason Goldson: 54:49

I do have the word of the day, which in fact is dictionary dot coms word of the day, which I felt was particularly apropos for our conversation. The word is gorga Eyes, Gorgon eyes. So Scott, you mentioned Theseus. If I can remember back to junior high school, the theology I believe, was Perseus who went after Medusa? Yes, I'm gonna do so it was one of three sisters. And the three sisters were called the gorgons. And if you looked at any one of them wasn't a good idea it would turn to stone. And so Gorgon eyes means to hypnotize or petrify. And it occurred to me that we could think of organizers maybe having a slightly different meaning as well. That if we look for the ugliness in people, if we look for the worst in people, then we petrify our own hearts. We paralyze ourselves, we make it impossible to have any kind of healthy relationship, any kind of find any kind of commonality, we simply shut the door. And we promote the tribalism and we promote the acrimony and the animosity, and the bellicosity. I've got my theist source out here and now I'm gonna roll the you know, the one of the foundational principles is this of the sages is judge every person on the side of marriage give every person the benefit of the doubt, but you can read it a slightly different way you could read it, say, give the whole person, the benefit of the doubt, look at the totality of the person, not just focus in on one detail. Let's see everything the person has to offer. Look at the person's history or the person's environment, look at everything that that contributed to make the person who he or she is. And usually you'll end up finding that it's not that hard, to see the good to focus on the good. And to find the commonality for building a relationship that helps better ourselves and better the world. Do you have a last word?

Margarita Gurri: 57:20

Oh, I always have a last word. Thank you, Rabbi. I wanted to thank first both of you. Jonas's, a great co host, and, Scott, what a guest. I love your energy. I love your courage. I love your clarity. I've put in the link here, down there. Your purpose highway, I urge everyone to listen to your episodes. But let's go back to the question. Each of us I think, might feel compelled to skirt or to look at and I, I tell everyone, I think you have the courage to do this. Let's look at what's God had said. What are your experiences? What are your talents? Let's sad father, one soul says what are your glitches, the things you're not good at the things that stop you? And then multiply it by service? And are you where you need to be? And before you ask too many of your friends take a moment to think about it by yourself. It is parts of courage is to really look at things when we're on a bike in Central Park where their eyes foggy, we're soaking wet. And we're, we're suddenly struck with a thought. So get yourself uncomfortable. And let the thoughts strike you just as Scott Mason and the rabbi and I tried to do that's all I have to say. And check out the purpose hiway.com the episodes they're a great start with Jonathan's episode. If you just go in there and research this, I think it's about faith. What was the title Scott, for the one with the rabbi,

Unknown: 58:54

I want to save the future of faith, but it may be it is under his name is plainly listed. So

Margarita Gurri: 59:01

it has something to do with it. But go and check it out. And I urge everyone, go forth and let them be proud of yourselves, and be brave and accept who you are. And you can change the world and meet this, this challenge. And I believe that we all can do that. So I say to you gentlemen, goodbye. I say to the audience, thank you once again. Please join us next Tuesday at 1230. Eastern for another episode of the rabbi and the shrink. Gracias por todo