#39: Helen Turnbull - The Unchallenged Brain is not Worth Trusting

How do we react when others’ deeply held values offend us?

How does inclusivity strengthen an organization?

Are you willing to accept or embrace a new reality?

These and other intriguing questions are addressed when Global inclusion expert Dr. Helen Turnbull joins The Rabbi and the Shrink.

http://www.humanfacets.com/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-helen-turnbull/

1:30  How does inclusivity strengthen an organization?

We can be privileged and excluded at the same time

4:00 What are D, E, and I?

Diversity: who we are

Inclusion: how we are treated

Do differences divide: why can’t we just treat each other as individuals?

Companies often hire for diversity and manage for similarity, which is self-defeating

We can learn about our unconscious biases but we can’t eliminate them

Sometimes we surprise ourselves with our own prejudices

Are we making eye contact with some people and not others

10:00 Do I have the will to compensate for my unconscious biases?

Am I willing to let others help hold me accountable?

Different perspectives bring us closer to the truth

Our brains are naturally lazy and take shortcuts to the familiar and comfortable

How do you draw a cup and saucer?

The limitations of pattern recognition

15:00  Experiential teaching promotes learning and awareness

Give people time to think and discover their own epiphanies

18:00 What does it mean to be labelled?

The goal of diversity is to bring us together but the outcome often drives us apart

The need of creating a culture of respect

Leaders have responsibility to set the example that defines the environment

24:00 Make sure every person present is invited to speak without interruption

Begin to build community and trust

Are some people looking for reasons to be offended?

How do we react when others’ deeply held values offend us?

Sometimes we need to get out ego out of the way

Turn the case around: is your reaction the same?

Sometimes we can bend our rules to show respect for others

Use humor to defuse tension

36:00 Will people accept or embrace a new reality?

Inclusion takes more work than we think

What’s in it for us?

Research shows that diverse groups make better decisions

41:30 Word of the day: fulminate

To protest vehemently or explode

When we are challenged, our reflex might be to lash out explosively

Being moderate really means to moderate our behavior

Give the benefit of the doubt and presume positive intent

Expect more from ourselves and a little less from others

Transcript

Margarita Gurri: 0:03

Welcome to the rabbi and the shrink. This is Dr. Margarita Gurri, Dr. Red Shoe, and my favorite Rabbi

Yonason Goldson: 0:11

Yonason Goldson

Margarita Gurri: 0:14

We're honored today and delighted to have one of the most brilliant minds in the world of diversity, inclusion, and unconscious bias. It's Dr. Helen Turnbull. Hi, Doctor.

Helen Turnbull: 0:25

Hi. Nice to be with you today.

Margarita Gurri: 0:28

Thank you for joining us. I can't wait. I met the good doctor first by by accident reading one of her books. And this is the village of illusions. That Helen, do you by any chance have the your your other book?

Helen Turnbull: 0:43

Yes, my latest book is called the village there's no, you're the one you're holding is the village of religions is the illusion of inclusion. So this one's really focused on the subject matter we're talking about today.

Margarita Gurri: 0:57

And I'm putting the links both of them in the chat. And they will be there in the YouTube or wherever we we put it. One of the things that I so admire, when it came to this country, I saw so many issues of bias and unconscious bias and inclusion and whatever. So I became an unintended expert. In my experience, not necessarily everyone's experienced, you have found a way to break it down so that you become a thought leader globally, so that anyone can figure out how can they strengthen their organization. With inclusivity, you understand all of the variables and the dynamics that go in a workplace. In fact, you've created three psychometric assessment tools, cognizant, which is unconscious bias assessment. And I know some of my clients, I've recommended that they use that, that I S M profile for inclusion skills, and the gender gap analysis, which says its name. So speak to us a little bit. First off, how did you get into the world? You're a white woman? Right? We see there's an accident, but how did you get into this world of inclusion?

Helen Turnbull: 2:12

Right? So I think two things. One is that, you know, even white women have diversity issues. And secondly, as an immigrant to this country, I'm from Scotland. Originally, when I came here, I did not feel included. I did not feel I belonged. And it was work to figure out how I had to assimilate the things that I had to give up in order to change. And I began to hear the stories of difference. I became curious as I listened to people from different cultures, African Americans, people are gay, lesbian, etc. And I realized that there was a whole world that I hadn't been paying any attention to. And I guess my own personal experience of feeling on the margins, feeling left out, got my attention, and helped me to become curious about other people. Having said that, I'm acutely aware, as people are listening, that listening to a white woman with a British accent doesn't speak to exclusion is speaks to privilege, entitlement and inclusion. So I have both of these realities living in me, and they are my experience that yes, I have privilege. Yes, people love my accent. Over here, they don't always love it in in the UK. But I found that my accent got promoted when I came to live in America. So. So I've got both ends of the continuum, so to speak, in terms of, of race, and culture, and gender. Well, we're

Margarita Gurri: 3:49

glad you got to that point. The rabbi and I've talked with lots of different guests, and we've talked amongst ourselves, and there's lots of issues we want to address. But Rob, and I thought, why don't we start with the basics for the definitions. And what exactly is diversity, inclusion and unconscious bias? And you better than anyone I've ever spoken to or read from, describes it in a way that actually for me, makes sense.

Helen Turnbull: 4:18

So I'll start with diversity. So diversity is the demographics and inclusion is the work environment. So diversity is who we hire in the workplace. Inclusion is how we treat people that we hire. And so it's important to make that distinction because quite often people use DNI or d i nowadays, are talking about diversity and inclusion as if it's the same thing. It's not. You can have diversity without inclusion. And you can have inclusion without diversity. So people can feel included, and they're all from the same race, culture, gender, etc. And so inclusion takes work And for me to versity is about our differences in terms of the demographics, the obvious ones like race and gender, culture, religion. And then there are other differences or personality differences. People talk about Marlon Lawtons work on the diversity wheel, for example, used to be called a diversity, onion, that all of us bring different aspects of ourselves to the table. And then there's an intersectionality of how that all comes together, which sometimes causes people to say, Well, why can't we just treat each other as individuals? And, and that's okay, uh, yes, I am an individual. And I have a unique story to tell. And at the same time, I have all of these social identity issues around my race, my culture, and my other aspects of me that are important. My religion, my my, my generational issues, which have become more important as I realize, I'm a baby boomer, and that has meaning to me today that I pay more attention to that I used to. So So diversity, for me, is the demographic and inclusion is the work environment and the way we treat people. So you can you can have a revolving door, for example, in an organization, because you can hire diverse people, not treat them inclusively, and have them leave, and then just keep hiring more diverse people. So I think that companies hire for diversity, and manage for similarity. And so that's part of the challenge is when you bring people in who are diverse, and then overtly and covertly you send messages to them about who they need to be, tone it down. Don't be so expressive, don't talk with your hands. Don't be so loud, don't and don't manage your conflict in that way. Do it my way. And so there's lots of ways that we send a message to people that they need to assimilate, rather than bring their best selves to work. So infusions are complicated topic, I think that would be my bottom line. The third definition you asked me for is unconscious bias. I think a couple of things on that everyone thinks they know what that means. But in actual fact, we can learn about our unconscious biases, if we're willing to do the work, we can never actually get rid of them. Because they live in your body. I think of them as sitting at the back of my neck. And I don't really know that there until they kind of creep up on me. But I have to move them to the edge of my shoulder, I have to be willing to see them in my peripheral vision like Pinocchio, so that I can decide what you know what decision I'm going to make. If I catch my biases, then I can make a decision that says, I shouldn't act in that way. I know Margarita, you'll remember, in my TEDx talk, I talked about the first time I got on a plane was a fear. And I was completely freaked out. I was like, Oh, I don't know about this. Maybe I'll catch a later flight tomorrow morning. And I stayed on the plane. But 15 years later, that bias re visited me in Canberra, Australia. And at that point, I was mid flight, when I realized it was a female pilot. And I said, Okay, I was able to laugh at myself, the second time, but the first time, I realized I had to catch the bias and think, hold on a minute, Helen, you're the diversity queen, you're thinking like this. And I realized that the image for me the mental model, or the mind virus that I carried about airline pilots was tall, white, silver, gray hair, male, and he could and preferably ex Air Force or navy, he could fly the plane and wasn't sure that she could. And so it lives in our body even when we think we're cool. We're not. And so I think we always have to work on a hot a, you know, Dr. John monitor, from national speakers, Margarita. And he talks about reflexive behaviors, and deliberative behaviors that are conscious biases, and we have them to unconscious biases, or deliberative and our unconscious biases are reflexive so that we're not necessarily knowing that we're doing it and it could be something as simple as eye contact. It could be that I'm always looking at you for affirmation in the meeting. But there's other people I never look at the people I don't look at No, I'm not looking at them. So So these are my my thoughts on these definitions.

Yonason Goldson: 9:51

I want to pick up one particular point that I think is really compelling. Dr. That you know, it's you know, I can't change my height, I can't really change my skin tone. So there are going to be certain aspects of my personality, or my thinking that I'm not completely in control, I may never be completely in control. And so taking that unconscious bias and making it more conscious, together with the will to compensate for its effect is perhaps the best we can do on an individual level. And then we want to create a culture in which we're, we're willing to let others help us hold ourselves accountable. I like to bring in the example that in the Jewish courts in ancient times, and technically today to two brothers were not allowed to testify together. And the same testimony, you need to two witnesses to determine guilt or innocence. But if you only had two brothers testifying, then this, the sages were concerned that growing up in the same home, the same culture, the same reference points, the same attitudes, they're going to have the same unconscious biases. And therefore, their combined testimony was not reliable, not because they were colluding, not because they were untrustworthy. But because you didn't have the breadth of perception and perspective, necessary to get close to the truth. And so even if they were the most righteous people in the in the in their generation, Moses and Aaron could not testify together. Because there wasn't that diversity of perspective. And this is what we want to achieve as a culture, where we recognize that we need different perspectives. And we need people who are coming from different outlooks, that together collectively, we can have a more accurate picture of reality.

Helen Turnbull: 12:09

Yes, and isn't something far be it from me, because I'm not a I'm not a legal scholar, or a judge or any any such thing. But it the assumption of a two people from the same family, having a shared perception of the world is true or not true. Because each individual, you know, in your own families that people will often say, you know, I kind of get where my daughter's coming from, but my son, you know, he's completely different, or vice versa. You know, she's a wild child, and he isn't. And so our individual personalities and our unique story. And our experience, even as being the youngest child, or the eldest child influences the way we see the world. So we don't necessarily share all the same socially constructed stories in our head. But we are likely to share some of the same values around what messages that we get growing up about right and wrong, good and bad. Who do I include? Who do I exploit? The other part in terms of the neuroscience of inclusion, is that our brains are lazy. Our brains are habitually lazy, and they really prefer to take shortcuts, they really prefer to kind of go quickly to what's the answer I'm familiar with. So I don't like to have to do the extra work. And, you know, I use an exercise for I asked people in my workshops to draw cup and saucer, and they always draw the cup and saucer looking the same. They're dry, you know, like this was the handle, and then the saucer is round. Nobody ever draws it looking down into the cup. And so that's about, you know, pattern recognition. And also looking at things from a different perspective. So that most of us prefer pattern recognition. At a reflexive level, we don't even realize we're doing it. So with the best will in the world, I want to grow, I want to hear diverse opinions. But here's the challenge. I only want to hear diverse opinions that make me comfortable. So if your if your diversity is disagreeing with my view of the world, then I start to have problems. And that's where the work is.

Margarita Gurri: 14:31

When you go to an organization that it's recognizing that they could do better. I and I know you have the secret because not only do you have these three assessments and your world of experience, but six, six of your clients, including Texas Instrument, JP Morgan, Citi Group, you've got banks. I mean, six of them have won major awards for their Inc, diversion. I mean, diversity and inclusivity What is the secret? So they call you? What do you do, then? How do you help them sort things out?

Helen Turnbull: 15:07

Right? So I like to think, and I've had this feedback a lot, that I do my work in a very non threatening way, and very inclusive of everyone. So I want to design or implement a workshop on gender, for example, that doesn't, that's designed to fix the man. And I only do the gender work. So that influence the conversation from both men and women. And we include all of the aspects of gender, including gender expression, and gender identity. So I like to be inclusive in the way I think about the work. I also do my work experientially. And so all of my designs, even my keynotes, are designed to include the audience include the participants. And by that, I don't mean, raise your hand if you feel like this or clap twice, if you that's not going to mean, I use live polling, and especially in virtual now I use breakout groups to get people talking about the issues. Because my goal and maybe is a secret, in terms of good design looks simple, good design looks. So the iPhone, for example. It's brilliant, but it looks simple, right? And what was the Frank Lloyd Wright's architecture looks simple, but it's brilliant. And I think when you do work well with groups, the participants walk away, thinking, wow, that was brilliant. And I'm not quite sure what happened in the design. But what actually happened was you give people space to think you give people space to talk, you give people space to hear each other. And you give people space and respect to have their own aha moments. So you're not lecturing at them, you're being with them. And I think that that is a part of, of how I do the work. So that at the end of the day, John Haida wrote a book called The door of leadership, and I am very influenced by the court from the dough called as a good leader, let it be said, they did this themselves. And so that you are not that you're not coming out of your ego when you're doing the work. So maybe that's my secret.

Margarita Gurri: 17:28

I think it is, I think you walk the walk and talk the talk, I've seen you, woo audiences who didn't want to agree with you, because they thought you'd be somehow challenging them or shaming them. And instead, you speak in a very soft way that actually includes logic and, and knowledge and facts, which is so unpopular these days. I think you dare to be different, which is wonderful. Rabbi, what do you have to say you've got so many experiences with diversity and inclusion?

Yonason Goldson: 18:04

Well, you know, certainly, I'm, I'm a, I guess, the classic majority, as a white male. I'm also part of a very, very small minority as an Orthodox Jew. And it does give me an interesting perspective on what it means to be labeled, which, of course, is the whole theme of my TED talk of how we, we divide ourselves with our labels, we don't get to know other people and we don't get to know ourselves. And what I see happening in so much of the conversation about diversity, inclusion, inclusion is the the goal is to bring us together. And the outcome is often to drive us farther apart. So how can you give us a an inside doctor on how to manage this mission of creating a more diverse and more accepting more inclusive culture in a way where we don't inadvertently accomplish exactly the opposite of what we set out to do?

Margarita Gurri: 19:15

Right.

Helen Turnbull: 19:16

You know, it's interesting because that my brain just fragmented in terms of wanting to talk about what's going on in the country. But preferring to talk about what goes on in the work I do with my corporate clients is that when I first started doing this work, one of the things I began to notice is that we used to run workshops with 50 people, five zero, people in a circle for two days, no tables, just a circle, and people would come in and like I'm not sitting down in there, because the expected traditional trading room, you know, with five pod tables, etc. And what I began to notice was, if there were 45 White people equal, and five people of color, that we had a fabulous workshop, because everybody got to share. And they had the white people have the stories of the people of color. And people really felt that had tremendous aha moments. But I'll never forget being in a workshop in New York, where it was about 40%, African American, and 60%, white, sort of major client. And by the end, and at first, I thought, Oh, this is fabulous, so much diversity. By the end of that workshop, people were seeing exactly what you said, as you know, I liked my colleagues, before I came into the studio experience. And now I'm really nervous of them. And so having too much diversity in that instance, had created the opposite effect for people. So the sharing that we would see in previous workshops, was the same kind of sharing, it was just that the numbers were greater, and the visual impact and had scared people. So that's one reality. And I'm not about to argue that that doesn't happen. And certainly watching what's going on in the country today. Just don't even get me started on that. But I think in the workplace, what the goal really is run by is the need to create respect for each other, the need to create an inclusive workplace where if you're the leader, and my, my intuitive senses, I need to do what you what you need. So you're I can tell what mood you're in each morning, I can tell when you're demanding something or asking nicely. And all of that impacts me. And so what I do is I adjust my style to fit in was what you need. And I think it falls on leaders to figure out what do I mean by an inclusive environment for my team? And what do I need to do to make sure there is respect, because that is the difference is that I need to make space for people to feel that they can bring not all of themselves, you know, people talk about bringing the roles elsewhere not don't bring your whole self to work, because part of it should be left on for the weekend. And just bring your best self to work. And but as as a leader, it's your responsibility to see what kind of environment might create thing that makes people feel that how do you show up trustworthy? is part of the question. So I to be more direct about your question. I'm not going to make the case that that doesn't happen. Because I've seen it happen. I've had it happen. But I don't participate in this work in order to create the feeling that people feel, you know, I trusted you before, and now I don't because there's too much talk about diversity. So let's just all get along. It's not realistic. The truth is we don't all get along. And I talk about, you know, the complexity of inclusion, and the fact that inclusion is a software that everybody thinks, Well, I'm pretty good at including people. And I said no, you're not? No, you're not. Because first of all, consciously, you have preferences. We're all territorial human beings. So that there are groups and you know, we haven't met before, but I know that there are groups that you consider to be your in growth. And I know that there are groups that whether you're conscious of it or not, they're not part of your in group. And some of them are further excluded than others. We all do that. So nobody, including myself, behaves in affiliates list of weight. So we need to start by acknowledging that. And then we need to figure out what do I don't have to like you. But I do have to be respectful of you. And if you're on my team, I need to find a way to hear your voice and to invite you in. And when that's not happening, you don't have inclusion.

Margarita Gurri: 24:08

So you talked about hiring for diversity, but then somehow leading for you know, diminished diversity. What can people do they get the right idea. They've got the numbers, but how is it that we don't take advantage of this richness?

Helen Turnbull: 24:26

Right? Yeah. So I think what leaders can do and some of this simple, I recommend to my clients is when you have even if it's a team meeting once a week, make sure that you go around the group and ask each person to speak so that everybody migrates or you've watched with me before, you know that one of the things I did was went around the room and have each person speak without interruption. So it doesn't matter what the question is a little bit like, what's that for you today? How are you feeling today? Tell me a little bit about your diversity. What's What's important to you, and then let each person speak without interruption. And that process begins to build community begins to build trust. And so one of the things you can do is good do an audit of yourself, the first thing you have to do as a leader is manage yourself at use of self intrapersonal work. When I look at the organizational development module, for example, it starts at the bottom with our interpersonal, what's the story in my head, you know, and then the next level is interpersonal. So what I'm saying to your right now might not be what I'm thinking. So I might say to you, I love your outfit. But I might be thinking, why is she wearing that. And so we don't always say what we're thinking. And so we have to pay attention to our use of self, we have to pay attention to interpersonal, we have to pay attention to the group dynamic. And this is where I think leaders have a blind spot, is not recognizing that if I've got a team of 10 people, and they're already diverse, and I'm telling myself, that's pretty good, but I don't ever recognize that I never call on the two Asians that are in my team, I never invite them to speak, I just told myself, well, they're quiet, it's fine, they get on and do the job. But I never invite them to speak. So they're feeling excluded. And if I get irritated every time I hear the next person on my team getting animated and emotional, because that's my stereotype. And I want you to turn it down. So we have to tap into what's my attitude about my team? In order? Am I really giving them a chance to bring their authentic self to the table?

Yonason Goldson: 26:51

Wow, there, there are two sides, really, you're describing the responsibility of leaders to be aware of the culture and of course, culture does trickle down, it starts at the top. And that's critical in the other direction. And just the the example that comes to mind. My wife teaches middle school, and she was bothered that, by the by the term Christmas vacation now doesn't bother me in the least. It's an American national holiday. That's what it's called, call it that. That's why we're on vacation. Well, at some point, they did change it to winter vacation. And that's fine, too. But, you know, we can we can agree to disagree on certain points, I may have certain sensitivities, you may have certain sensitivities. But sometimes it seems people are looking for reasons to be offended. And just one, one example comes to mind. There was a column in the New York Times magazine called The ethicist. I don't know if it's still there or not. But at the time, the author the writer was, the Congress was a guy named Randy Cohen. And a woman wrote in, and she said that she had had a business dealing with an Orthodox Jewish man. And they finished the deal, they signed the contract, she reached out her hand to shake on the deal. And he said, I'm sorry, my religion does not allow me to shake hands with women. Now, full disclosure, not all authorities are in agreement on this. I will accept the hand of a woman when she extends it to me. I generally want to extend my own hand. But this individual apparently followed a stricter opinion. And the one that wrote into the ethicist and she said she was so offended. She didn't know what to do. Should she protest the behavior? Should she just let it go? Should she tear up the contract? So before I tell you what, Randy Cohen, the ethicist advised her, I'd be curious to hear, doctor how you would address this issue.

Helen Turnbull: 29:10

So I think I would, I would suggest her that she respects differences, that that clearly is a deeply held value for that individual. And it wasn't intended to offend her. And she needs to look at that is about the use of self. And that's about how we respect differences. So the individual is not being deliberately offensive by saying, I'm sorry, I don't shake hands with women. The same is true in the Islamic culture, that men are not meant to shake women's hands and you have to respect that. You know, when you try to force fit your cultural beliefs on top of another culture, I think that's when we get into trouble. That's why I think the more we understand stand each other, the less will be afraid of each other. And the more we'll be able to respect each other again, I'm not going to stop shaking hands with men because of your belief. But I am going to make sure that when I'm in your presence, if that is your belief that I understand that, and don't take it personally, sometimes, we have to get our ego out of the way. Sometimes it's just not about you. It's about something bigger than us. So yeah, that's my answer. Now you can tell me what I say God

Yonason Goldson: 30:33

knows. It's a lovely formulation that I'm pleased to tell you that I tell the story in my in my diversity keynote, and, and the majority of people in the audience respond in a similar way. However, Randy Cohen, the ethicist told the woman, you should definitely tear up the contract. There's no room for this kind of sexism in our society. Now, what's interesting is that I don't know if that column got the most response of reader mail ever, but it was close. And the responses were 10, to one against Andy Cohen, the ethicist must articulate I thought the most articulate answer was one that said, you know, what would have happened if it would have been an orthodox woman? who refuse to take the hand of a of a secular man? Would we have ever heard about this? And often, if you just reverse the situations, you'll see that it's a different kind of unbiased unconscious bias that's at play. And you know, I'm not there my greed. I know you had a handshaking incident.

Margarita Gurri: 31:46

I had had a synagogue that was being built. And in the process, they were building community, several existing synagogues were joining. And so there was a lot of conflict, even some pushing, shoving, and bad words. So they called me to come in, and I shook hands with somebody turned out to be the form and that was fine. He was Cuban, like me is perfect. We had a perfect understanding. And then I went to shake hands of the rabbi did not at that point, know that there were some rabbis that would shake hands, because not all rabbis have the same sense of, of how orthodox there. So we just shake my hand and the guy next to him immediately told me got in the way and said, Oh, rabbis, Orthodox rabbis can't touch hands with a woman. And I said, Oh, hi. Nice, you know, thank you, Rabbi. And I, I said, So then being a Cuban, I promise, I won't kiss you on both sides of the cheek then. And he laughed. And I said in he said, Thanks be to God. And I said, and to Moses. And so that was that. So we teased a little bit. And from then on, I did this, and he did this. pretending it was a joke. We handled it well. But you know what? He did shake my hand that first time. After the guy said, I don't shake hands. He did. And later on, asked him, Why did you shake my hand rabbi? He said, Because you'd put it out. And I didn't want to show disrespect. Yeah, yeah. And I thought, wow. And I got goosebumps when he did when he told me that because it just felt so respectful. And he crossed his own line, because I had good intentions, but was totally ignorant. So since then, I've done a better job of researching groups. That was a long time ago when I was young. And I still missed the boat sometimes that I try not to.

Helen Turnbull: 33:34

But you also raised for me, then Margarita is the practice of kissing on both sides of the cheek is is also very European. It's not very British. And so very confusing when we became part of and I wish we still were part of the European Union, that people started kissing in both psychology and British people would be bouncing around, not knowing which way they were meant to turn, as it was happening. So yes, cultural practices are can be challenging, but I love the way you handled it because of the humor engaged in that because you build the relationship from there, and you're both being respectful while using humor. So

Margarita Gurri: 34:20

we did and there's also in Cubans, when someone sneezes, we go has Seuss Jesus. And so, he knew that so then, sometime when I sneezed, I knew him for for many years, he said Moses, because I had already made the joke. So that was very funny. And showing respect in such a lovely way.

Yonason Goldson: 34:45

Saying doctor, just elaborate that, you know, keeping a sense of humor is so important. Yes. Because, you know, we will make these occasional missteps and It's often fairly clear whether they're coming from a place of goodwill, or ill will. And, you know, I've had women come up, and and you know, and hug me in a situation that they felt it was entirely appropriate. And in the secular world it is. And I don't, I don't shriek. I don't push them away, I don't make a fuss. Yeah, if it's appropriate at some point, I say to them, you know, by the way, for your own edification, in the future, when you see orthodox men, they probably prefer not to be to be hugged that just stay light of without making a white. Yeah, it's just, it's gonna make us all a lot more healthy in our interactions.

Margarita Gurri: 35:48

And I think that's what Dr. Helen is doing. She helps organizations have a culture of inclusivity the ideas, knowing it's never going to be all the way perfect, where you can invite lightness instead of judgment and harshness. I think that's interesting. We got a comment from Jenny. It's my limited perception, but it seems to have the experience to think diversity. It used to be the most that most veterinarians were male, but now most are female. So we don't automatically think current day Dr. Doolittle is male, give people a new reality, and they will automatically adjust otherwise, it's a forced exercise. And thinking outside of your own experience, such as considering diversity is motivated by the fear of doing something wrong. I like acknowledging inclusion, but not talking about diversity.

Helen Turnbull: 36:41

Hmm, interesting. I think that that's an interesting perception. And as I was listening to you, they're the idea of people, you know, give them a new reality, and they adjust his way, but not always. Because I mean, we're watching right now, people trying to resist the new reality in the country, as the demographics are changing, and we're getting, you know, people pushing against that gerrymandering, voter suppression, etc. Because we don't really want to value the differences that are in this country. So people don't always automatically adjust. The issue for me is that we have to, we have to be willing to lean in, we have to be willing to embrace difference, we have to be willing to accept that new reality, and, and not try to fight to change it. So as I said, inclusion is complex, much more complex than people believe it is. And it takes a whole lot more work than people think, you know, they just think, Oh, of course, I'm inclusive. Well, no, let's talk about that. Let's talk about what's involved in it.

Margarita Gurri: 37:55

I talked with one client who said, I'm not changing, I'm old, I'm successful. I've had eight businesses, they've all made money. If people want to be with me, they do it my way. And I gave him a few thoughts about the various impacts of diversity. The only one that seemed to hit him is that it was actually profitable. Could you speak to somebody who doesn't think they should change? Why should they consider diversity and inclusion in their workplace? What's in it for them?

Helen Turnbull: 38:25

Hmm. So I actually start a lot of my keynotes by saying, If I could give you a 10% improvement in the bottom line and improve your return on investment? Would you be interested? And I've never had a leader say no to that question. I think live inclusion is the key. And that there's a lot of research that demonstrates that diverse groups make better decisions than homogenous groups, that diverse groups may take a little bit longer to get to the decision, but the quality of the decision is much improved by the input of diverse voices. And so going back to the the cup and saucer example, if I'm, if I asked my team to be creative and innovative and think outside of the box, and they keep going back to the same mental models that they've got, then we're not guessing innovation. We're just getting sameness. And so in order to get innovation, we really have to make space for diverse voices. And there's a lot of marketing evidence that when we make space for diverse policies, we get better products, we get better profits, we get better bottom line results. I mean, when when when companies started employee resource groups, for example, there was some pushback the why do we need to do this? Why do the next people need to talk amongst themselves? Why do we need to LGBTQI employee resource group, but what companies began to realize was these groups People were bringing ideas to the table that they hadn't thought about. Were opening up marketplaces that they did not previously have access to. So the LGBTQI community, when when they felt included and embraced by the organization, were encouraging their colleagues and friends to buy from that organization. I think it was, I want to say it was Miller Coors, who used to be one of my clients, who their Latin ex employee resource group, gave them the idea of developing different beers, that that would appeal to the Latin American marketplace. And so there's a lot of bottom line consideration, apart from the site to just the right thing to do. And, you know, I'm a believer in lifelong learning. So when I hear somebody say, I'm not changing, you know, this is the way I take it or leave it at, you know, my son turns over, I feel a bit sad for that individual because they are limited by their own thinking.

Margarita Gurri: 41:09

Wow, you've given us lots and lots to think about. I think we have so much work to do in this area in terms of tolerance. And I'd like you to think about one. A call to action, as I asked the rabbi to speak to His word of the day, Rabbi.

Yonason Goldson: 41:32

Thank you, doctor. The word of today is fulminate. fulminate, which means to protest vehemently. But it also means to explode. And it's something that migrated bacteria and I we've talked about that, when we're when we as human beings are challenged, when we confront the unfamiliar, the, the the uncomfortable, that there's often a reflex to lash out to be somewhat explosive, in our response, sometimes we may be perfectly legitimate in protesting. Sometimes it might even be appropriate to protest vehemently. But it's we have to keep watch over ourselves to I like to say that being moderate doesn't doesn't necessarily mean a political stance, or an ideological stance means that we moderate our behavior, we moderate our responses. And so when we are engaging people that we don't really get them, maybe we're a little bit unsure, a little bit uncomfortable, bend over backwards to give them the benefit of the doubt, to presume positive intent. And when we're going to be a little more, a little more, perhaps strict or demanding, let's be a little more demanding with ourselves, expect a little bit more from ourselves, and maybe a little bit less from others. And if we all do that, then there'll be a lot less fulminating and a lot more constructive disagreement, and eventually, discovery of common ground.

Margarita Gurri: 43:19

Well, the rabbi knows that I started this podcast, when I was alarmed and disappointed in how Americans were responding online, through tweets and other social media platforms. And I thought we can do better. And I wanted everyone to understand how to think about and talk about ethical issues and everyday conflict issues in such a way that would make us better and stronger. I think, first off, Ellen, Dr. Helen Turnbull CSP, global speaker, Federation member, everyone should hire you. That's the first thing. Everyone should take your tests and know where they are. Because every time I talk with you, I think of something new that I would benefit from working on. So what are the last words that you have maybe a call to action or a bit of your wisdom?

Helen Turnbull: 44:14

Thank you, Margarita, it's been a delight to be with both of you. I have a sense. We could have talked for a long time. Yes. Now. My, my wisdom is this. First of all, do your own work. So start with yourself, no matter how diverse you are. It doesn't matter if you're able to say, Well, I'm a minority, African American, I'm Jewish and a rabbi. We all have work to do on ourselves. And if we start there, rather than trying to fix other people, one of my favorite quotes is from Socrates said, The unexamined life is not worth living. And I do believe that we have to do that work, but I also want to leave If your listeners today, with the thought that their unchallenged brain is not worth trusting, so we socially construct our own stories, they're not always right. And we should at least be open to that possibility.

Yonason Goldson: 45:16

Wow. Well, thank you, doctor, and then that that line, the unchallenged brain is not worth trusting. That was my big takeaway from your TED Talk. So thank you for bringing that up again. It would serve us all well, to reflect upon that. And thank you so much for sharing your your insights and your wisdom with us. And I do Margarita. What is the last word for today?

Margarita Gurri: 45:41

I think my last word is challenge your brain. Look at where you struggle. Look at how you may be limiting your personal life, your social life, your business life, your leadership, by being comfortable, and including people just like you, or even the people that we've included in the next level. And now they're in more inner circle. So what are we doing to get more and more comfortable? And what are we avoiding? So that's my only thought is ask yourself, How am I limiting myself, myself with my thoughts and beliefs and actions? Well, Dr. Helen Turnbull, thank you so much for joining us. I really could talk to you all day. You're one of my favorite professionals, and certainly one of my favorite people. It's been a long time since you and I've gotten together because I moved from Florida to Michigan. And I miss you dearly. And I'm grateful that you got a chance to share your wisdom with all of our audience. Thank you.

Helen Turnbull: 46:46

Thank you. I appreciate that. And you were overdue to catch up Margarita.

Margarita Gurri: 46:50

You know what we are? I mean, we even if it's just in this little rectangle. Yeah. We are overdue a zoom call

Helen Turnbull: 46:58

for cocktails, right? Yes, ma'am. Rabbi, it was lovely to meet you.

Yonason Goldson: 47:03

Thank you for joining us.

Margarita Gurri: 47:04

I know always Rabbi thank you as well. We'll see you next week on episode of The rabbi in the shrink. For questions send them to podcast at the rabbi and the shrink.com