#42: Judith Germain - Harness Tension to Promote Innovation

What’s the difference between influence and manipulation?

How has COVID created the need for a new leadership breed?

How do you lead those who don’t want to take risks to do what’s right?

These and other fascinating questions are addressed when Judith Germain, the Mindful Maverick, joins the Rabbi and the Shrink.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/judithgermain/

https://themaverickparadox.com/

1:00 What is the Maverick Paradox?

What kind of leader will risk everything to do what’s right and give up everything to defend it?

Why do companies hire mavericks and then resent them?

You can be a maverick by personality or by vision

Maverick leader is who you are and what you actually do

Everyone can be a maverick leader

5:00 We all have the potential but we don’t all have the will

“Maverick leaders will swim upstream like a salmon even though they know there’s a bear waiting for them

7:30 How do you lead those who don’t want to take risks to do what’s right?

All of human experience is paradoxical

Leaders need to be consultants and promote an antifragile culture

12:00 How do we help mavericks grow?

The difference between extroverted mavericks and introverted mavericks

Patience is a learned trait

Manage the tension between independence and interdependence

Authentic leadership is getting others to want to do the right thing

15:00 What’s the difference between influence and manipulation?

It comes down to intention

Eventually people revolt against manipulation

Maverick leaders are great storytellers

What’s the difference between socialized mavericks and extreme mavericks?

19:00 It’s lonely being a maverick

Pull yourself out of the fight to carry on the fight

When does tension lead to innovation?

How has COVID created the need for a new breed of leaders?

25:00 If you’re not being challenged, something is wrong.

Unanimity is overrated

If a maverick stops arguing, it means they’ve stopped caring

29:00 Four different personalities

Conformist, maverick behaviorist, socialized maverick, and extreme maverick

Balance the good of others and the good of themselves

What are the defining characteristics of a maverick leader:

Determined

Reputation -- character and competence

Influence

Versatility

Execution

Narration

Differences with a sense of common vision drives success

34:00 Trust is built or undermined over time

Principled leadership inspires trusting followership

Grover Cleveland

Unreasonable expectations sabotages the system

Ethics always begins with accountability

Only through passionate engagement and constructive disagreement can we get closer to the truth

45:00  Word of the day:  iconoclast

Challenge the conventional wisdom

When politics becomes religion, there can be no ethical debate

Strike the balance between civility and being contrarian

Transcript

Margarita Gurri: 0:03

Welcome to the rabbi in the shrink. This is Dr. Margarita Gurri, Dr. Red Shoe and my favorite Rabbi

Yonason Goldson: 0:12

Yonason Goldson

Margarita Gurri: 0:13

And the rabbi and I are delighted today because we have Judith Germain WHO IS THE MAVERICK paradox? Leader? She's a catalyst. Welcome, ma'am.

Judith Germain: 0:27

Hi welcome thank you.

Margarita Gurri: 0:31

We were very excited to have Jude here for a variety of reasons. We believe that she has the right idea and the right heart for what leadership needs to be. I wanted to first start off with the idea of how did you come up with this idea of maverick leadership? And then, and then the idea of maverick paradox, how'd you come up with the idea?

Judith Germain: 0:57

Okay, so that's a good question. So for me, I wanted to look at what was it that made some leaders good, and some people not good. And I suppose to distill it down. It was those that worked for the greater good, who were prepared to risk everything for what's right. But would give up everything if they were wrong. So if you're, if you're a maverick leader, you have no ego, you're not attached to being right. You just want the thing that is right. And you want everybody to win, you know, you want that triple win, you know, can you when can I when can society win? You know, and that's what you're going through all the time. And when I looked at that, I thought, there are certain types of people who, who do this all the time. And I recognize that the trait that they had was that they were willfully independent, which is what I define Mavericks are. So that's how I got to Maverick leadership, as in the best type of leaders are what and what do they have in common, and taking that on the road and test it to see whether it works or not works. And I came up with the idea of maverick paradox because I was confused. Because people tend to hire Mavericks, and they want Maverick leaders, but they only want them when there's a problem. And Mavericks been Mavericks, they fix a problem really quickly. And then they look around and go, I see another problem. I happen to be someone else's department, but that's neither here nor and that's where the problem comes. So the paradox is, is that they want the maverick to solve the problem. And then they hate them for solving the problem. And that doesn't make much sense to me. I think that's where the paradox lies.

Margarita Gurri: 2:48

Well, and we had an expert on inclusion, Dr. Helen Turnbull, who said the same things happen we hire for diversity, but then we lead for sameness. So that if someone comes in with a diversity of experience and thoughts and ideas, pretty soon, we try and work them in so that they don't upset the applecart. And I think you're you're saying the same thing. I was pretty excited when I saw that you have brand new, I didn't know LinkedIn has a newsletter. So Jude has a newsletter on LinkedIn. I'm putting it in the chat right now. And that'll be certainly in our show notes. And I urge you to go this so exciting, that she's spreading the word on what does it take to be a good leader was and the other ideas you said? Some people are Maverick leaders only in some contexts, and anyone can be a maverick leader. Explain that, please. That's very exciting.

Judith Germain: 3:51

Okay, so I think that when it comes to being a maverick, you're a maverick by personality. Or you can be a maverick, only in the area of your expertise. Fosston is at work. So you go to work, you stand up for what's right, you change. You have some strange and interesting ideas that always work out. And then you go home and you go, Aha, honey, yeah, I'll just slip straight into compliance. But Maverick leadership Maverick leaders is much broader than your personality. It's who you are and what you actually do. And everyone can be Maverick these everyone can start to watch right? Everyone can be that devil's advocate. And the thing about Maverick leaders is that they will do the right thing. And if you think about just Cinder in New Zealand, a woman's amazing, you know, she breastfeeds in Parliament. She stands up despite the rest of the world saying that she's crazy and sticks to what she believes in. And when she has an opportunity to denigrate others, she doesn't take it

Margarita Gurri: 5:02

Let's see I disagree with you. I don't think everyone can do that. I love that you think everyone can grabby? What do you? Where do you weigh in on that? I wish it was true that everyone could have the thought for the greater good. And I don't want to burst any of your bubbles. But I've been around the block and I just don't think that everyone is capable to have enough self love and confidence to not take the shot and to put others first all the time. Robbie, what do you think?

Yonason Goldson: 5:32

I'm going to go way out on a limb here and say that you're both right.

Margarita Gurri: 5:39

Diplomatic Sir,

Yonason Goldson: 5:41

I'm very out of character for me, I know, I'm

Margarita Gurri: 5:45

pretty tail, how could that possibly be?

Yonason Goldson: 5:49

Because I believe we do all have the ability, we all have the capacity. I think everyone can be that type of leader. But like so many things, it's a choice to choice countries and our it's our desire, I mean, the sages say nothing stands before will. If you have the will to do something. And it's something worth doing. And you have the clarity and you have the commitment, and the vision and the determination, you can make it happen. But how many of us actually have all that without without the clarity of purpose without the vision and without the willingness, as Jude said, to put it on the line to risk being the odd man out the odd woman out to risk infuriating people by telling them what they need to hear.

Judith Germain: 6:42

But here's an example, say a maverick leader will swim up swim up that stream just like the salmon, even though they know there's a bear waiting to eat them. They're still swimming.

Margarita Gurri: 6:55

And you know why? Because as a salmon Fisher, I know that the reason why they swim upstream is because that's where the best seminar and because it's in their DNA, and the barrier there because that's where the best salmon so it's worth the risk. And I do believe that if you're swimming in some sort of little tributary that's not so big, and there's no bear, the efficient is the fishing is not so good there. So that's it. That's my thing. It's worth that risk, then I have a question. You have this ultimate faith in human beings? And I hope you're right. Let's say we're all supervisors of someone who is not quite putting others first that is somehow limping along with ego and self motivation. What can we do to have them all go to the June WAY TO THE MAVERICK OF THE MAVERICK leader?

Judith Germain: 7:52

Well, as you may know, I used to be head of HR and comms so serious, senior positions, I firmly believe that not everyone can be saved. Because like Yan Harrison says, there might not want to be. So I think you always start off with trying to find out what is it that the other person is trying to achieve? Is it actually against the goals that you want them to do? Or not? Because it might not? Might not be you might be doing it the wrong way. So she has to find out? Is there a meeting of minds? Is there a possibility to aligning things? And I think there's a big difference between can't do and won't do? Can't do? easy to fix? That's just teaching mentoring. That's just skill transfer. Won't do. They're wise they won't do it because they refuse to do it because it's against the principles or, you know, what is the reason for the won't. But ultimately, if you can't align, they need to go. But that's my friend from HR person telling

Margarita Gurri: 8:58

you that I think that's golden. I think that your book, The secret power behind successful leaders, I've already put it in the chat. And I'm putting the paradox. Maverick paradox magazine link in the chat as well. I urge everyone to go there. I think you have secrets of the universe in there. Correct.

Judith Germain: 9:17

Right. And Jonas has written as well for the magazine.

Margarita Gurri: 9:20

I know that the thing you see and I can't call him for me, he's always the rabbi rabbi. I saw your picture there as a maverick. Oh.

Yonason Goldson: 9:31

It's actually somebody else's picture to make me look more of like a maverick. You know, I think the key and then when I what I what really drew me to you in the first place. Judas is the paradox element. Because I think that just sums up all of human existence. I mean, this is fundamental to my belief system that you know, we're individuals living in a society were physical creatures who are aspiring to spiritual greatness. We have to focus on the immediate needs of now while keeping us addition on the future. And this means that we are always in a state of tension. And when it comes to leadership, and I think about the, it was not maybe 1520 years ago, someone came up with these models of parenting, you have the, you have the helicopter parent always hovering you make sure that nothing came, nothing bad happens, and you have the drill sergeant parent who, okay, you're gonna do this and do that do that. And both of those now, I think they call it snowplow parents try to remove all the obstacles. But the problem with all of these is that you don't give the child the opportunity to grow and develop and in modern parlance, to become anti fragile, to become stronger by failing. And so the effective parenting model is the consultant where you help children look at situations and recognize the potential consequences and the potential payoffs. And this same model applies for all leaders. So the best leaders are those who know when to relinquish leadership in order to empower the people for whom they're responsible. And and let those people learn to take responsibility for themselves. Rather than sit back, wait to be told what to do. Don't take initiative, don't express ideas don't risk objecting, then you end up with a calcified and a dysfunctional society. And so embracing this paradox is what allows us to succeed as individuals and as a community.

Margarita Gurri: 11:41

So Jude Bach,

Judith Germain: 11:42

yeah, life is full of risk, and you should take it.

Margarita Gurri: 11:46

I think so what is a parent to do if they find themselves blessed with a maverick child?

Judith Germain: 11:54

What advice do you give? Sorry, you're cut out.

Margarita Gurri: 11:59

That's a parent to do if they find themselves blessed with a maverick child.

Judith Germain: 12:06

Buckle up. Thank you. So I think that's really interesting because I you know, you introverted Mavericks respond quite differently from extroverted Mavericks. And oddly enough, the introverted ones are much harder to deal with. So extroverted Maverick will tell you when they're upset, they'll tell you when they're annoyed, they will warn you before they respond, not the introvert, they just do it. So you might say, if you are blessed with a maverick child, what I would say is you have to handle them carefully, in the sense that if you drop on their break, they may stop being Maverick, because you're very fragile when you're young. And I think by helping them to explore who they are, and their reasoning, and help them to always look for that greater good. I know that's what you want. But what does everybody else want? You know, cuz I remember most Mavericks, and most Maverick leaders go through that extreme Maverick stage. And you hopefully, you're in there for very long. And I remember, you know, when I first when I was young, around about 17, I was very much on the brutal honesty side of things. Because that's how I wanted to beat you know, if I just went wrong, just tell me I'll just change it. So I assumed everybody else was the same way. So if somebody said, Am I good at this? And they weren't, I say, No, you're rubbish. Really surprised? I just couldn't figure out what the problem was. It took a really good Maverick leader to to actually point out that it wasn't only like to change. So I was like, okay, but it was a shock, because I thought I was doing the right thing, because I was really honest. And I thought I'd be helpful.

Yonason Goldson: 14:02

Yeah, the paradox that

Judith Germain: 14:04

you're changing,

Yonason Goldson: 14:06

you have to accommodate others, and their perceptions, and they're young anticipate how people will respond, which seems again, inconsistent with the whole idea of being a maverick. And so there's this this tug of war between the independence and the interdependence.

Judith Germain: 14:32

Yeah, I would always say that patience for the maverick leader is a learned trait, because people say that, Oh, this You're so patient. I took years to learn to do this, because I figured this out. ages ago, you're still catch up. So I think it's that but when you start to invert it and think, what's the right thing to do? That it becomes easier to make that decision. You know, what's the right thing to do? I learned quite early on in my life that yes, I can, I can say something hurtful to make you move quickly. But what is the point of that? Because it's just because there's other ways it might take a little bit longer. But there's other ways to make you want to do the thing I want you to do. And I think it's a sign of maturity to, to realize that, because you can do something doesn't mean you should do it.

Margarita Gurri: 15:32

I think ethics doesn't a doctor, if you know what it doesn't the road always lead back to ethics. I think that's wonderful. You had talked about in many of your articles, the difference between manipulating and influencing? If you wouldn't mind addressing that? I think that's a great point.

Judith Germain: 15:54

Yeah, so the essential difference really is one of intention. So if I want you to do something, why do I want you to do it? Is it because it benefits me? Or is it because it benefits us both? You know, what is that? What is the driver? And I think, if you are externally focused, as well as internally focused, then you'll you'll head towards influence. Because one thing I noticed growing up was, you can manipulate people for quite a while. But eventually they will revolt. Yes. And that you know, why going through that that's just silly and pointless, and a waste of time and resources, everything else, when it's much easier to make for people to love it. And I suppose it also feeds into the fact that Maverick leaders are great storytellers. So whenever we want to align somebody to something, we tell you the story, imagine what would happen if this would happen. And we can do this, and we can go there we can. And everyone's excited and enthused, and he's just like, well, changes fast, then much better than just trying to manipulate someone not to feel bad anyway.

Margarita Gurri: 17:03

I think it's wonderful. So you're, you're, I think, an interesting, human in so many ways. You're a keynote speaker, you're a podcaster. You're a consultant and editor, you've been an HR guru, you've done all sorts of stuff. And yet, I heard in one of the interviews that you didn't realize you were a maverick until later. So two questions. How did you figure out your Maverick? And why does it take us all a while to decide if we are or not?

Judith Germain: 17:34

Well, it was somebody else he told me to basically out myself as a maverick. I was writing about mavericks and stuff. And he said, You know what, you should just out yourself be more powerful. And at that time, the only Mavericks I was talking about was the trunks and talent. So there were aspects that I was, I could I could align myself with and other bits that I couldn't. So at that point, I hadn't split out socialized mavericks and extreme Mavericks, I just had to mean one big thing. So I couldn't quite fit into that mold site. Title I didn't want to accept. So once he said, it was quite funny, though, because once he said out yourself, and I thought about it, I went really extreme. And it was really weird. And I remember saying to someone, so I could feel myself going back to normal. It's almost like I had to just do it and then recalibrate, which was really interesting. And I think, and I think looking back I, I had repressed a part of my personality, but not reconciled it. So I was talking to somebody the other day about metrics don't see things as conference compromising, because we reconcile ourselves with the decision we've made. So it's not a we don't lose anything. The decision is reconciled. We wholeheartedly agreed to take this decision. It's not a compromise. And I think that was the problem. I hadn't reconciled. The different aspects of who I was. So I kind of acted out for, you know, a couple of days.

Yonason Goldson: 19:07

That's really fascinating to me. And I'd like to dive into that a little bit more, because I was very much the opposite. I mean, I've I've been in Africa as long as I can remember. And not always, willingly. Because it's, you know, it can be very lonely. This cell, yeah, I'm not really fitting in with others, you know, how do you manage that?

Judith Germain: 19:32

You know, I think it comes from a great deal of self reflection. So, because when I was growing up, people just called me weird. Because I know things I could see things quicker than everybody else. And I could predict better than everybody else. And I'd be like, but I didn't I wasn't careful with my language. It wasn't contextualized that like, Well, that's obvious. It's just this. What's the problem with that? You know, cuz I was thinking of moving in that way. But it wasn't careful. I mean, I was good person, but it wasn't careful of people's feelings because the words I was saying wouldn't upset me. So I didn't see why it would upset other people. So it was, it was a lack of understanding as opposed to deliberate hurt thing. So, and I agree with your answer, this is lonely, because you become if you're not careful, you become the fighter, you become the one people come to with the problem, because they're frightened to tell the boss or their friend to tell the bully or their flight. So you then take on that mentor, and if you're not careful, you become the warrior, but it's not your fight. So I had to, and I think it's coming from people I speak to who are bad facts that you have to pull yourself out of the fight to be able to help the fight, if that makes sense. But he was really great question. I've never talked about this before.

Margarita Gurri: 20:57

Well, I'm really excited about your Maverick paradox, because I think it captures imaginations, it doesn't insult anyone or make people feel ashamed. And I think it's a great chance for people to ask themselves. Am I a maverick leader? For some content areas are all the time because that's my personality? How am I raising the Mavericks? How am I supervising and hiring Mavericks or not? Can you so here's the question I did have. What happens if you hire a team of all Mavericks? What happens then?

Judith Germain: 21:32

Well, depend, if you've hired a tape depends on the environment you're in. So if you're in a high pressured area, where it's all about competition, and being the top, you'll probably hire a whole load of extreme fabrics. And then life will be pretty hell, they'll be dare I say, they'll be Enron's and places like that. Because it all be about the end result. So how much money I can make, and who do I need to put down to get there. So that's not good. If you're blessed in hiring a number of socialist Mavericks, so they're the ones that works the great good, then you'll have tension and conflict, but it will be creative and innovation. It would be no rubbish. People will say things like I worked for a little while with two other socialized Mavericks. And it was amazing, because we did what we said we were gonna do. We disagreed, but still loved each other. We got a whole ton of stuff done. It was just so easy. Yeah, when he was just like, because everybody knew that whatever happened, it was meant for good intention. So if you made a mistake, and you said the wrong thing, nobody would be defensive. Like, oh, what do you feel like that? And then you say, because of this, that's not what I meant. Oh, okay, then. So it was kind of easy. But what I would say now is that, whether you want Maverick leaders or not, you no longer have the choice. COVID has said, you need people who will do the right thing, care for other people who will be accepting exceptional roles. But most importantly, can understand the complex without relying on past data to pivot into something new and innovative. And only Maverick they just can do that. Yes. So whether you like it or not, if you haven't got some Maverick leaders, you need to grow some because you're not gonna survive or thrive anymore.

Margarita Gurri: 23:32

And make sure that some of those Maverick leaders aren't just specific to a content, but our true Mavericks because what I've seen them is they brainstorm, then they come up with an innovation. But then there's trouble with implementation. Because with implementation, you have to be flexible. And if they're within a content area, this is where they call me for consultation. They don't know why they're having a hard time with the final step of this whole brainstorming. You know, they they cannot actualize what they thought was a good solution, you know?

Judith Germain: 24:05

Yeah. So I would, what I would say is then they're not effective Maverick leaders, but they might be Mavericks by personality, co Maverick, these are when they go through that whole stage. Yes, before they actually implement anything, they run that cycle in their head first, and they test it and test it and test it. And if, from their opinion, that you, if you implement the solution, and it doesn't solve the stated problem, they will not leave their desk and start working on it. So go back to okay, what let's go back through until they run it through in their head, that it's going to work, they don't start. And I think that lies the problems with companies, because you'll have your Magritte leader there that says it's not gonna work and they just refuse to begin on because some people are really into implementing, and you're looking to the solution. You're like, this isn't gonna work. It's gonna it's gonna look great. But if this is The problem, this isn't a solution. And that's where the better paradox is like, we didn't hire you to really have an opinion. And I think that's a lot with companies to hire people who are good enough. Yeah, they're not really good people, because really good people challenge. And that's what you want. You want people, we want organizations. Now, when people say no, or yes, if we could just do why, you know, I think when COVID hit, and it required changes, thinking, I think Mavericks everywhere, got super excited.

Yonason Goldson: 25:36

That's really interesting. You know, there's a kind of a meme going around that if you're the smartest person in the room, find another room. Absolutely. And and I think that that's really what you're describing to that, you know, a Maverick is somebody who's not afraid to challenge or to be challenged.

Judith Germain: 25:55

The challenge. In fact, if you're not challenged, it's something's wrong. And I think that's the thing about Maverick Maverick leaders is that they do not do cook, you know, sort of that kind of consensus bias, because if everyone's agreeing, you're highly suspicious of that, you know, was everybody agree with me? No, no, that's not so you would if nobody else takes out a devil's advocate your switch size, and you will argue against it, just to check that this is gonna work or not work?

Yonason Goldson: 26:25

You know, unanimity is not, is not a good thing. If there aren't voices that are objecting, that are forcing us to reevaluate and reconsider, then how can we be sure that we've examined all the angles that we really thought the issue through and I quote, a quote, what's his name? Joseph Jabara French philosophy isn't, it's better to debate an issue without resolving it than to resolve it without debating it? Good. It's, it's that Maverick mindset, that I'm not just gonna roll over and go along, because it's convenient, or it's easier expected. I'm going to speak up because that's, that's part of integrity, and that's part of ethics.

Judith Germain: 27:12

And here's a warning for those who who employ other people. If a Maverick is arguing strongly for a position, and they suddenly stop at question, that is probably because they've decided they don't care anymore. Yes. And that's quite dangerous. You know, if they're constantly kicked back, and they literally don't have the power to make the change, they've just gone. Sure do that. That's what I would worry.

Margarita Gurri: 27:37

Yeah. And I think that that is one of the signs that there is not only serious problem, but when I go into organization, I see a lot of people rolling their eyes at meetings. I often think now I'm thinking the dude way that I'm calling a Mavericks rather than the the true seers is what I call them before. So it's a maverick who's rolling their eyes, because that's all they can do. And you can see that soon, they'll not work there anymore. So

Judith Germain: 28:02

no, check out. They do they check out this cognitive dissonance isn't it? I you know, I see myself as someone that, you know, does a good job does this X Y, Zed, I cannot do that. So I need to now decide. So they might lessen their input to keep the status quo they're happy with, you know, and the thing I hate the sad thing about metrics about word is that they can work at 30% of capacity, or ability. And for other people, they think they're 100%. And over time, that Maverick dies, and you can sit, you can just see, you can see the result of that. And that's dangerous, because if you've got an extreme Maverick, they'll start hurting people because they're bored. And socialist Mavericks will just leave after they've tried one one final time to put it back on track did not just go fine.

Margarita Gurri: 28:55

Have you created a measure for people to or an assessment for people to find out if someone's extreme or not or where they are?

Judith Germain: 29:06

I've been toying with that for some time. I do have a series of videos that explains that the four different types of individuals Well, that's the conformist. Took me a long time to come up with a good friendly name for that. And then you got the maverick behavior. So that's the one that's Maverick was the second one. Maverick behaviorist so they behave like a socialist Maverick at work, generally speaking, socialized Maverick, he got your extreme. And I think it's a conformist will become Maverick behaviorists, when they're compelled to do so. So COVID some life changing event that or you know, they've been made redundant, they'll do something different there. And time will tell whether they'll fit back to conformity or not. And then you've got your socialized Mavericks, then your extreme Mavericks who are similar in ability, but it's all about intention, and one is externally focused. And internally focus and I say that a lot. But and I think I am not saying socialized Mavericks or Maverick leaders allow themselves to be walked over. No, doesn't mean they don't care about what happens to themselves no. But what they do is they hold almost in equal weight, the good of others and the good of themselves. And certain, sometimes they'll sacrifice the good for themselves for the great for the greater good. And other times, they won't. But what they will do is they'll spend a long time making a decision. It's not a go to I need this, I won't do this. They'll spend some time thinking about what is the right thing. And then, and even if they do then pick themselves. They'll struggle with it for a while for quite a while. The load wasn't the right decision.

Margarita Gurri: 30:46

Like you did. Yes. Good. So you have your Maverick driven leadership model, which I found compelling. Please explain it to everyone. Yeah, I

Judith Germain: 30:57

guess it's, I thought about it, it's the decisions. It's the decisions that all good leaders should make. So it's driven and I love an acronym. So if you follow me anywhere, you'll see this acronyms everywhere. So D is for determination. So how determined are you to get this done? And that means if someone come up to you and say, I just don't agree with you, or you're crazy to do that, do you still do it anyway? Are is about reputation. So it's your reputation, and the reputation of others you're associating with that is equally as important. And it's the two sides of character, and competence. So are you someone who can be trusted? Are you trustworthy? Do you have integrity? Do you do what you say you're competent? What sort of track record you've got? Influence? Oh, so eyes for influence, influence over manipulation? How do we all win? And the is for versatility. So how versatile Are you? So one of the things that annoys me with a lot of leadership styles is that they're quite fixed, almost binary, you know, somebody moves this way, you move that way. Like we're just that robotic, we will last anyone in my leadership, this is personal. He is about execution, or management leaders execute well, and n is around that narration, we tell a good story. And that's how we align you because we will paint the vision so well that you just want to come it's gonna be fun to. Mavericks always have fun.

Margarita Gurri: 32:35

Well, I have certainly bitten on the maverick paradox bug, you've got me, you've influenced me fully.

Yonason Goldson: 32:45

So much to what you're saying. It's it's it comes to a topic that I think is, is critical, which is trust. People in in in Biblical Hebrew, the word for love is ahava. And it's related to the word ahava, which means flame. So what is left after the flame is that a flame is brought to the base and it tapers to a point. So people have a common vision, a common sense of purpose, that we're all headed in the right direction. But if we're all walking the same line, there's no perspective there's no context, there's no interplay. If people are different from one another, different skills, different perspectives, but we have that common sense of vision, then our differences become a source of strength and unification. And we accomplish so much more together than any of us could, as individually as individuals. And it only works when there's trust. And trust is something that is developed over time. And so if I'm going to take a chance, I'm going to take a risk, and I'm gonna get shut down. I'm going to stop taking risks. If I take a risk or chance by making a mistake, but I'm held accountable, but I'm still supported. Then I become encouraged to become empowered, I become emboldened. And that's when our strengths really rise to the surface and allow us to work together to achieve great things.

Judith Germain: 34:27

Yeah, he said, because I think people need a level of predictability with people around them. IE, if something happens, what are we going to do? You know, will he shout at me? Okay, well, I'm not gonna go tell him then or what's what's he gonna do? You know? So I think people think that trust is gained in the moment of that exchange of each other and it's not it's with all the conversations you've ever been in. It's all the times they overheard you talking to Mr. When you rolled your eyes when you didn't know you're all in phase taken in, isn't it? So when you get to that crunch point, do I trust you? And that's what we see with, like with COVID and other world events, isn't it where people are running around because I just don't know who to believe because we can no longer stand by and say, I don't know. I don't know. But I trust you. So I'll do what you say. And it reminds me when I was 17 minutes, fantastic, socialised Maverick boss, who was just amazing. And I remember one Sunday, he one day he said, right, you're gonna have to come in the weekend. For the next four weekends. It's the whole team. And I can't see why it just you just gonna have to come. And I can't pay you any extra money. But you should come. And we all went. Yeah, sure. Okay. And when we fight back, we went. What can we do? It's like nobody even asking him. Like, why? And this is the times when, when they the company doxxed us all to work an extra 30 minutes in the week, people threatened to go on strike. So this is like, so it wasn't like, we were just like, yeah, what can we do? And I remember I was elected to go ask him and he said, all this things come in. And I was like, Okay. And he's because we just trusted him. We didn't need him to tell us if he said we should come in, we're coming in. If he said, Go home, we're going home. And you know, this is the people who wouldn't just follow anybody, but he demonstrated trust over a period of time. And I think that's what's really important in leadership is that social, you know, so that my book, you know, centralized Mavericks market leaders, they extend their reputation on behalf of the company, which is why they're so principled about what they will and won't do, because they know people are attending to their reputation. The company's it's their reputation on the line. So that's why you might find them lying.

Yonason Goldson: 36:53

We got a president, Grover Cleveland, over 100 years ago. And when he was running, remember which newspaper it was, but this paper came out supporting him for reasons to vote for Grover Cleveland. One, he's an honest man, too. He's an honest man. Three, he's an honest man, for his nervousness. Can you imagine that?

Judith Germain: 37:19

That reminds me when I worked, I went to the organization, I was a new head of HR. And I was changed a lot of things. And then one of my managers, she liked me much and are over there was a landlord. There was an election and she said, You know what, I kind of wish she was an MP, because I'd vote for you. And I said, why you don't like me? It gives me that freedom. outbreaker just Phase II don't like me. Cheers. Yeah, no, yes. I trust you. And I respect you. And then she said, It's not I don't like you. I just don't like the fact I have to change. I was like, okay, but it's interesting, cuz you saying I don't even know which party you would support. But I know you wouldn't lie if he was in power. And I thought that was interesting. That is

Yonason Goldson: 37:59

supposed to work in as you're not. What do we do now we vote for the politicians who tell us what we want to hear. And then we get mad at them for not doing what they say they're going to do. Because they've made so many promises. They can't possibly keep them, as opposed to voting for the person who says, I'm going to do what is best for the country. And these are my qualifications. That's the way it's supposed to work. I'm still working. So we've sabotaged the system ourselves, by having unreasonable expectations for the people that we want to lead us as

Margarita Gurri: 38:33

well. And one leadership trait that I think we need to identify and encourage more is that a good leader doesn't need others to like them.

Judith Germain: 38:42

Oh, it would be nice, wouldn't it?

Margarita Gurri: 38:46

Yeah, but that's not how it works with votes, please like me. For me, right?

Judith Germain: 38:51

For the thing is, I think it's not about I think he'd be like, whenever you see the psychometric tests, right? I don't know. In the UK, they were they were arranged for why every single why psychometric? And I always used to say to in my test, I have a strong need to be liked. And, you know, you get interviewed, and they say, oh, a bit concerned that if you could do this head of HR, because you still need to be liked. And I'm like, Yeah, I do need to be liked. But I don't expect that this certainly at work. You know, I will do what needs to be done. Yeah. And I think I think that's, I think what happens is when people get into jobs, first of all marriages, I guess is that they expect this one thing or one person to correctly everything like that. Feel you completely I mean, how ridiculous is that might sound nice, but you one person or one thing can't complete you because it means that you take no responsibility for yourself or what you need. And I think when you get whether it's a marriage of two people or whether it's you and a company, you have to find a way of reconciling and I think if you It's a bit like it's a bit like in the in, you know, it's a bit like you're looking at you say, if I'm only fixed on doing what's right for you, because I know you only care about what's right for me, between us, we have the best solution. We make me think nice. Well, good.

Margarita Gurri: 40:21

Well, the rabbi and I always get back to the point that ethics begins with accountability. And how are we contributing to things going well, whether it's in a marriage or friendship or work relationship, or, or in a podcast relationship, I mean, the rabbi and I cherish our differences, we're very different people. We dare I mean, I'm Cuban, Catholic, he's a, he's a rabbi. I mean, it's really different. And we love our differences. And they do cause us to, to work on our tempers, and work on wanting to listen better, and it makes us stronger. You know, I mean, we can vehemently disagree. And it's, it's very exciting because we listen. And I, I cherish that it's nice to have someone else that can hold me accountable to like, if I if I misspeak or whatever, it's lovely to have a doctor. So

Judith Germain: 41:22

you know, I think I take it

Margarita Gurri: 41:24

I'm always right. Nice, thank you. Well, there you go.

Judith Germain: 41:31

I think if Maverick leaders see those kinds of base, discussions, arguments, whatever you want to call them as a really great intellectual workout, you know, it's like necessary, it's a bit like pumping iron shape, and they go find the person that disagrees, you need the most good conversation, you know, and learn something. So yeah, I totally understand that. I quite like to have somebody that I respect, I can argue with

Margarita Gurri: 41:57

one of the exercises that I do with some teams that are in conflict, I'm a psychologist, I get called to help teams that are working less than lovely, right. And so I might say, Go pick someone that you clash with. And, and sometimes I actually have them as a small enough group, pick the one they clash with other times I create avatars of people that clash, and then they each represent their clashing avatar that's safer for groups that aren't as sophisticated or are fragile at the moment. And and then they come up with that idea. It's fascinating.

Yonason Goldson: 42:33

Talking about this in my TED Talk that, you know, 2000 years ago, there were two schools of two academies of Torah learning, scholarship. And history says when they debated in the study hall, they became so impassioned, it was as if they fought with swords and spirits. But when they left the study hall, they were friends. It was never personal. Because the idea of respecting each other, they respect each other's motives and intentions and in sincerity and and even though they rarely came to a meeting of minds. They we have recorded their teachings and their debates, and they continue to influence Jewish law and practice 2000 years later, because it's only through that passionate engagement, that constructive district disagreement, that you come closer to the truth, that really shouldn't be what we're all after.

Judith Germain: 43:28

Yeah, I think what you got there, I would say is the how you argue. So it's very, you know, it's all very well to have a disagreement, and you both kind of attack each other's, you know, arguments. But do you use toxic language against other person, you know, so I think the difference with a maverick Niger is that they won't go after the person, even if that might mean that they win the argument quickly. Like I say, well, actually, you know, and if you're looking for the win, win win, you're always looking to see where you can align and where, yes, influence, so you're not going to destroy the person. And I think that's the problem, that you can't you don't see much ethical debate anymore.

Margarita Gurri: 44:16

You know, you don't

Judith Germain: 44:19

know the answer for the person, you know,

Yonason Goldson: 44:22

very big names for people rather than actually engaging.

Margarita Gurri: 44:26

And yet a good conflict is the nexus for amazing learning and growth and innovation. It's amazing, find a good conflict and examine it and there is yumminess there, you know, that's a very sophisticated term young

Yonason Goldson: 44:43

you know, it's this for the best way to to slow down or prevent or reverse even the the onset of of decline mental acuity. And dementia in such is the best thing you can do is talk to people you disagree with in a constructive way,

Margarita Gurri: 45:02

and that's why God created family, that's good. There's always gonna be some and we've got holidays coming up. So people's IQ points will be safe, you know, with this holiday season. Alright, so now we're coming to the time where Dude, you're going to be thinking about one a, an action plan or something you want to say as the final words of wisdom. And we go to their good rabbi, for the word of the day, sir.

Yonason Goldson: 45:29

The word of the day today, chosen specifically for our guests is iconoclast. No, I can't iconic class was originally a kind of a heretic. Sort of a strange word for rap it reaches. Somebody would challenge the conventions of the church. I think it was David Gardner, I think in the American Standard number of years ago, he said that politics has become the new religion. And that the problem with that is that when people become religious in their political beliefs, it becomes dogma. There isn't debate, there isn't discussion, because if you attack my position, well, that is heresy. And sort of in us in a society like that, it can be a good thing to be an iconoclast, to confront people with the inconsistencies. I mean, we know it doesn't always end well. We don't happen to Socrates. And all he did was ask questions. Back then people who asked questions were annoying and annoying, people got put to death. And the worst kind of canceled culture. But the concept of being a maverick, is being willing willing to challenge being willing to suggest that things established the conventional wisdom may not be on target may not be right. There may be other perspectives, there may be other ways of looking at things. So to be a little bit iconoclastic while still being polite, being civil, being respectful, and when necessary being diplomatic, then Africa is the one who can strike that balance. And that really is the sign of effective leadership.

Margarita Gurri: 47:24

Wow, I love that. That's perfect. And I think it's fitting for you, dude.

Judith Germain: 47:31

Yeah, I do love that. I was just trying not to sort of bring too broadly. Okay. I think what strikes to me if you're going to make this happen is how this question around how do you identify Maverick leaders identify themselves by their values. Those who are Maverick leaders tend to identify themselves by their collective identity. So if you identify yourself with a collective, I am a, I don't know, political stance here or I am a nurse Ryan, this, then it's harder to change, your mind is harder to attack the institution or the idea that's wrong, because it's your identity. It's like following us football team or something. Whereas with Mavericks, because they're identified with values, and people who are like minded values, they're not attached to the collective, so they're not attached to the problem. So I would say that if you want to be that Maverick, is to try to look at yourself as an identity of one. I am me, you know, this is my values is what believers will lead with, then it's easier to then align and have disagreement with people, because it's not a an attack on you, as an individual. If someone disagrees with you. There is tacking your current thought process on something and then are able to do to change it and to move it. And I think if you're thinking about what is my end goal, with my end goal is to make y happen. How do I make y happen? Now Jonas Shatner, someone calling them an idiot isn't gonna make y happen? Basic psychology tells you that does not work. Or do you think of your siblings when you're growing up? They don't work calling them an idiot. So look to see what is what is tethering the other person to their viewpoint, and seeing whether you can cut that tether? Did Nansen That

Yonason Goldson: 49:42

was beautiful. Yeah. And thank you for helping us see how to navigate the challenges of leadership and followership because in some sense, we're all leaders even when we're following Oh, when when's the right time to the right role? And, and that willingness to not just go along to get along, and not just object to be objectionable? Somewhere in between is where we find an African leader. And thank you for helping us see that more clearly. And that's Doctor, do you have a last word for us?

Margarita Gurri: 50:23

Well, I think Rabbi, we were very smart to have Jude on we just brilliant. One point as, as a seasoned psychologist, and grandmother, I'm going to make a call to action to everyone. Ask yourself, are you a maverick? If Judas, right, everyone can be one. And that means you have enough confidence and clarity in your values, that you can take the hits that, that required in any situation to really listen to other people, to set your own tone, and to inspire others to the greater good, rather than bully your way through or call names. In my family. That was an old argument, we had all come to this country and my father had older brothers, and they were all very sophisticated. They all have a huge sense of humor. And they're all arguing about some silly point. And suddenly, one of the brothers said, and your feet stink, because there was no way of ending the solution. So they decided to make up a silly argument and put down and everyone laughed, because we all knew it wasn't really a solution. But in the cartoons, it would have been that if you can shut people up, you won, which is not true. So my question to everyone is, how are you helping other people to speak up to do the right thing for the greater good? Is that is, after all, why? The rabbi in the shriek exists? We want people to elevate critical thinking, right action and civil conversation. And Jude wow, I mean, your your last, your last name says it all you are indeed germane to the leadership of the world. And the maverick paradox lives on. And May everyone please go to our links and check out her book, her LinkedIn, magazine, her other magazine, she's, she's got something to say and if you if you dare to risk greatness, read and listen to her, as I do think that she will inspire the courage and the confidence to be all that you can be. That's all I have to say. As always, thank you, Rabbi for being on Jude words do not express. Thank you.

Judith Germain: 52:44

Thank you. Bye bye.

Margarita Gurri: 52:46

We'll see you all for the next episode of The rabbi in the shrink for questions and comments go to podcast at the rabbi and the shrink back calm. Thank you all and be well