#43: Nick Gallo - Succeed by Weaponizing Ethics

Why is business more like baseball than brain surgery?

Are we responding to a virtual world by creating a culture of mistrust?

Why don’t leaders recognize the profitability of a healthy company culture?

These and other critical questions are addressed when ethics evangelist Nick Gallo joins The Rabbi and the Shrink.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/ngallo/

https://complianceline.com/

1:00 The resonance of ethics

The aspiration of culture and flexibility

Happiness comes from purpose

Serving by helping others help themselves

4:00 The value of culture first

Lean into your strengths and talents while improving your weaknesses

We don’t serve our cause or our partners by pressuring people to be automatons

A diverse community promotes vibrancy and creativity

You can’t sell an idea if you don’t live it yourself

9:00  Why don’t leaders recognize the profitability of a healthy company culture?

Our best intentions may not survive the pressure of the status quo

We don’t have patience to wait for change to improve our lives

13:00  COVID is the Great Revealer

Crisis brings out the best and the worst

Adaptability is the key to enduring success

How do we benefit from weaponized ethics?

15:00 Are we responding to a virtual world by creating a culture of mistrust?

The paradox of monitoring tools

19:00 A lot of our training is broken

Salespeople are forced to sell outdated solutions rather than participate in creating new ones

Imagine sales teams and creative teams working together

23:00 Why is compliance the enemy of ethics?

Using the law to subvert the law is a toxic mindset

Fear of change urges people to go backward

26:00 Hierarchy of values can work against us

Cultural values have to be lived, not just spoken

Compliance is the safety platform but doesn’t encourage growth

30:00 Always do what’s in the best interest of everyone

Risk, creativity, and vision

Ethics sherpas help leaders up the compliance mountain

Leaders project the values that define a culture

35:00 Children of heroes become heroes (and vice versa)

Followers are “children” of their leaders

You can’t make plants grow, you can only provide a healthy environment

40:00 Reframe anxiety as excitement

We live in exciting times if we visualize where we can go

43:00 The word of the day:  insouciant

We have to balance being free from anxiety against being careless and cavalier

We need a measure of tension if we are going to grow and achieve

Life is more like baseball than like brain surgery

Transcript

Margarita Gurri: 0:03

Welcome to the rabbi in the shrink. This is Dr. Margarita Gurri, CSP, the shrink. And this is everyone's favorite Rabbi

Yonason Goldson: 0:13

Yonason Goldson

Margarita Gurri: 0:15

And we're delighted to have with us Nick Gallo. Hi, Nick Gallo.

Nick Gallo: 0:20

Hey, how's it going? So glad to be here. Thanks for having me on your show.

Margarita Gurri: 0:24

Well, we're delighted we can thank the rabbi for finding you. He's a good talent scout have to say yes, he is. Yes. So you're you're you have a business called compliance line. And you have some interesting monikers. Mr. Fantastic. Captain ethics, or the ethics of Angeles? Tell me about those. Oh, Captain culture? That's what it is. How did how did you get to first compliance line? And then how did you get these cool names?

Unknown: 0:55

Well, do you want the long version of the short version, I guess, whatever you're in the mood for sir. So my brother and I always dreamed of running a business together. And we set out on that journey. And we raised some money. And we spent some time trying to find a business and an industry that we could put our talents and gifts to work in. And the ethics and compliance industry just really resonated deeply with us. So we did a deep dive there. And we were so lucky to find clients line, it was at a stage where the founders were ready to move on to do something else. And we were ready to kind of roll our sleeves up and work, you know, 80 hours a week to help build the business. So that's how we came to get involved with compliance line that was about five years ago, we moved our families across the country, from Chicago to North Carolina. That's why I have that Southern drawl. Now, that's why I'm kind of a southern boy at this point. And we've been running compliance line ever since. So it's a company that has a suite of Corporate Integrity products that range from issue and taking case management where people can speak up and listen up to sanction screening and monitoring. And, you know, basically, compliance and ethics training that doesn't suck. So yeah, that's the business that we're in and how I got those nicknames are, I don't know, some of them are kind of aspirational. Some of you know, Mr. Fantastic is a throwback to the comic book character, because I am famously flexible, as I like to say. And Captain culture is just, you know, we, in our private equity days, we saw a bunch of different businesses and our financial services days, we saw a bunch of different transactions and companies that we got intimate with for various periods of time. And we just saw that really, the common thread to the best companies were those that had the best culture. And we think culture is the only sustainable competitive advantage in business and probably in life. And that was something that we always wanted to kind of put on the forefront of our approach and strategy to running and building a great company. Well, that

Margarita Gurri: 2:50

is cool. What is your brother's name?

Unknown: 2:52

My brother's name is Giovanni Gallo. Alright,

Margarita Gurri: 2:55

and what are his nicknames,

Unknown: 2:57

you'll have to ask him, he's may have more nicknames than I do. But he's a, he's like our chief, you know, he's like a builder, he really builds people well, he's like our chief development officer. And he is the proud papa, he's, I don't know, we're kind of cut from the same cloth, we have a lot of the same foundations, but a lot of sort of complementary, you know, personalities, you know,

Yonason Goldson: 3:19

it really is encouraging to see what you're doing, Nick, because, you know, ultimately, happiness comes from having a sense of purpose. Mm hmm. And it's easy for people to get trapped in jobs or careers, where they just kind of feel like they're going through the motions and making a living, and wishing for something more profound. And, and you're able to actually involve yourself in serving others, but serving others in a way that helps them help themselves. And yet, that's really, you know, when we talk about ethics, you know, my approach to ethics is, it's all about the awareness and take responsibility for our actions impact others. Mm hmm. And so, you know, I'm, I really admire what you're doing and how you're doing it.

Unknown: 4:11

Well, thank you. That's a That's sweet of you to say, we've always been kind of culture first, guys, you know, like I told you, and it's kind of interesting earn. And I'm kind of thankful that we were able to find a company that really can help other larger organizations, build their cultures, and give people that that purpose. And I don't know if it's always been the case, it seems more of the case. Now at least it's sort of, you know, closer to the surface, that people are, you know, with labor, mobility, where it is and work from home and all these different things. It's very easy to change jobs, and the number of people that I speak with that say, you know, it's really less about the money and it's more about having, working for a company or working with a company where I feel like my purpose is overlaid with that organizational mission. That's sort of like higher than it's ever been, you know, and it's just it. It's sometimes it gives me chills that I get to work in this industry. That is such an open To your point with, like, what I feel like my own sort of personal purposes, you know?

Margarita Gurri: 5:04

Well, the rabbi and I were very impressed with the website. Well, thank you so much. Now, appliance line.com. I think I love the way you're living, you decided you wanted to work with your brother, you looked at your talents. My father once said a long time ago, you can do anything you want, because God gives you all these talents. But you have to decide where you can be most helpful. And he said, look at your quirks, look at your strengths. And then you'll know where you can be a service. And I think it sounds like what you did, my father would be impressed. Well, that's,

Unknown: 5:39

uh, that's nice to hear that. It's actually an interesting piece of advice. And it's probably right. But it's, you know, as you kind of come up through corporate, it's almost like you're getting churned out by this machine where those works. And those like, individualities need to be like, pared away or something. And there was a long time where I felt like I've, you know, I need to be less of who I am. And to your point, like, I think when you lean into who you actually are, yes, lean into those strengths, obviously, you want to build your weaknesses and all that stuff. But really leaning into your strengths, those those unique talents, as you put it, are really what are going to separate you and and really allow you to have the biggest impact on those around you, you

Margarita Gurri: 6:15

know, well, we noticed that you have a lot of emphasis on diversity and inclusion. We had Dr. Helen Turnbull, who is a diversity inclusion expert on the show. And I think that she would be tickled pink with what you're doing. Oh, so tell me about diversity inclusion, what is it that you're doing with culture that has to do with that, because that's a real important catchphrase these days?

Unknown: 6:39

Well, um, you know, my dad is KUWANO, for sure. I know, I know, it's another connection we have here. But um, you know, so coming over with that minority experience, and seeing how a lot of minorities were treated, and seeing what my, what my mom had to go through in the 90s being a working mom and all those like, lecherous bosses she had to deal with, and even what my wife had to deal deal with in, in New York City. And obviously, you know, the 2000s, and stuff like that, like, we have a lot of, you know, broken workplaces. And what I've seen is that a lot of folks have to, you know, it's kind of like we're talking about, you have to be this, this artificial version of yourself at work, where you have to sort of take your chest, your heart out of your chest, you have to take your brain out of your head, you need to be this sort of automaton and color, color within the lines, and all that kind of stuff. And there's pictures that people have, whether explicit or implicit about what success looks like, and what some what a manager in this kind of role looks like. And a lot of those things didn't really make a lot of sense to us. So we've always, you know, we've seen always a lot of magic and diversity, and not to sound cliche about it. But I mean, you get, you know, you see a lot of magic and diversity from a finance perspective, right, a diverse portfolio helps you weather the storm better. Well, that is true. Also, from a company perspective, you have a bunch of diverse perspectives and your portfolio of people, where people are actually actualized, to be their cell be themselves and put their unique gifts to work and bring those quirks to work in pursuit of this organizational mission. There's so much like magic that can come from it. So you know, we're a company that's run by minorities, we're a company that has women throughout the organization, most of our managers are women and things like that. And it's not just to like, look good on paper, it's because it's kind of a funner way to work. And it feels good to give up opportunities for folks who have been working at another company who just kept being told, you know, you're not ready for that promotion, when it's probably because, you know, of their racial background or something to come here and be unleashed and really thrive. You know, there's genius in all of us. So, you know, again, if we can be, it's hard to kind of sell diversity and inclusion products, right, like a, I don't know, imagine showing, imagine showing up at the gym for your, for your workout class. And, you know, the workout instructor comes in anyways, you know, 375 pounds is eating a cheeseburger, it's hard to sell diversity and inclusion products. If you're not a diverse company, yourself. It's hard to sell, you know, Corporate Integrity products, if you're not, you know, leading with leading with integrity and leading with an ethical organization. So it's kind of one thing that we're talking about one homogenous sort of spirit that needs to kind of permeate both the organization and the impact that we're trying to have in the world. And we've just seen a ton of value come from the diversity of thought of personality of ages of generations of racial backgrounds, and so forth that, you know, exist within our organization.

Yonason Goldson: 9:26

Here, Nick, my concern about having you on the program, is that because we are so aligned in our thinking, we don't just want this to turn into an echo chamber. We, we affirm one another, but I wasn't listening to you. I was saying I I've said much of the same ideas, articulated them in in my own interviews, and one of the questions I get asked again and again, is that this makes so much sense. Why don't people get it? I mean, why are we still in business? Trying to sell coffee? When it is so obvious that that is the way is the way of success. And, you know, I tried to come up with an answer, but how would you address that question?

Unknown: 10:10

I think it's a great question. And I think, ultimately it comes down to fear, right? It's maybe an ego fear, it's a control fear, it's a neurosis fear. I don't know, it's some kind of fear, though, that's gonna, you know, you don't want someone to I don't know, I don't know, to challenge you. Or, I mean, you've seen this 100 times, right? I think what I'm about to describe is maybe a microcosm or a seed of this broader forest that that we're talking about. But you see somebody who's like, Man, when I'm a manager, I'm going to do it, right. And I'm going to do this and that, and then they get that power. And then they just fall in line with how their manager was that they hated that they were speaking out against, because of the pressures of dollars over everything were the pressures of performance. You know, I'm kind of rambling a little bit here. But perhaps it's like, when you feel like a caged animal, you fall into this, like backup style. And that backup style is not this, like actualized, like, above the line, sort of, like really clean way of acting. And so when you have these pressures on you, from external forces, or from a boss that's above you that, you know, you feel like your job is on the line, you're sort of falling down into this, like base level of like, this Maslow, like bottom level of like, Yeah, this is survival, you know, this means I'm not gonna have food and like, all those kinds of things. So it's like survival instinct comes out. And when you're in that sort of high cortisol mode, it's hard to have this sort of third eye open, you know, metaphorically, to see the magic and other people and give room for that. And also, I think it probably is also compounded by maybe this is like another sort of flavor of it, it's compounded, it's compounded by the short term focus that we have where we expect to, I'm going to plant a seed, and tomorrow, I'm gonna have a crop, you know, I'm saying, I'm gonna plant an acorn. Tomorrow, I'm gonna have a tree. That's not how anything grows, it takes a long time to do that. And if we don't have that sort of time budget, then we need to see results immediately. And it's takes time for people's baggage to drop. And it takes time to see the magic and people. And sometimes we just don't have time for it, maybe I don't know, well, and I

Margarita Gurri: 12:00

think we have to train people and educate them, and then learn together. I think one of the best ways to strip anyone of talent is to expect him to do what everyone else has always done. And right, I've seen one of the cool things I've seen in this time of the COVID is that I've seen some pretty original thinking and managers, suddenly they have a workforce that's remote. And they're working differently. Maybe at first everyone was working every other day or two days a week, and they had to communicate more about how they were going to work. And I think that's been magical for many, many managers did not do the thinking, but the people under them did. And I've seen much more discussion about how what needs to get done, how we're going to get it done. And moving forward? Are you seeing the same thing that some companies are thriving, and some totally failed? That test is pretty interesting.

Unknown: 13:02

Yeah, that's like an interesting way you describe that I've kind of talked about COVID as like, the great revealer. It's gonna, like reveal, you know, it's going to reveal what's up what's up, up, up, up underneath the skirt or something it's going to reveal, like what the bones of the company actually are. And if you're perhaps I'm just kind of brainstorming a little bit. But if you're this kind of industrial revolution, style command and control company, it's probably hard to thrive in this, like, Great flattener that that COVID has, has become right? Because you have you don't have the same controls that used to have, you can't, you can't like walk around in like micromanage people, if everybody's working in their own houses, right. Like, how do you keep people motivated, like all the, you know, the the, the sea, the ocean, that that that we're floating on is just undulating so much like none of those old plays are kind of working. So maybe that has a piece of the puzzle. But yeah, I think I think COVID perhaps is the catalyst for it. And I think over the next 10 years, we're gonna see a massive separation of organizations that are able to adjust to this new normal. Yeah, it is not just sort of a COVID work from home sort of physicality thing. It's also a composition of the workforce thing. And I think the hearts and minds of the workforce, are at least more activist in the sense that they're more prone to speak out, they have a different prioritization of values. And in that, you know, call that Gen Z millennial group that's now 50% of our workforce, that's going to be 75% over the next five to 10 years, depending on where you draw those lines. And also, the ascension to positions of power by those, you know, weird individuals in this group that I'm talking about is going to have a massive effect on how organizations are organized, how work gets done, the role that ethics you know, play in the actual like achievement of the company's mission. And I think, to your to your point, like companies that can get ahead of that curve, and use that to like weaponize ethics, so to speak, are going to totally separate from those that kind of greenwashing.

Margarita Gurri: 14:57

weaponize ethics. Wow. The

Unknown: 14:59

book title Maybe, huh?

Margarita Gurri: 15:01

I think that's a TED Talk.

Unknown: 15:04

That's a TED talk. Okay. I like that. All right, let's

Margarita Gurri: 15:06

talk a rabbi, I love your take on ethics and compliance. I could hear you talk about that all the time. And I think it's relevant if you would mind ranting on that.

Yonason Goldson: 15:17

Well, yeah. First, I'd like to actually follow up on something you just said, Nick, which I thought was really interesting that they've, you know, in this new culture, there has been software developed, where I think it was first for teachers, to monitor students, when they're taking tests by themselves, and actually tracking where their eyes go, and how, how long they look away to make sure they're not cheating. And then bosses employers wanted this to check on their employees while they're working. And it's, I mean, aside from being Orwellian, it's, it feels like in many, many cases, counterproductive. And totally, I understand, there has to be some sort of a monitoring system, but at the same time, you're creating a culture of distrust totally. And you're creating anxiety levels. I mean, if I'm taking a test, and you know, and I want to look up and think for a moment, and I know that the software is going to be making evaluations about my integrity, based on these little nuances of behavior, then I'm certainly not going to do my best work totally. And I'm not going to feel any sense of loyalty to this kind of system, and no creativity

Margarita Gurri: 16:41

will correct and no creativity, right.

Yonason Goldson: 16:45

So you know, who we are locked in a bit of a paradox here, that we do need some sort of accountability system. But what we've come up with is something that's actually suppressing productivity.

Unknown: 17:01

I, you know, I love that you brought this up. We were talking to another business leader, we were thinking about maybe doing a deal with this person. And they were talking about this monitoring software on their remote workforce. And I was just like, I like Rach, like, I don't know, I just

Margarita Gurri: 17:21

like hate that if, if you're

Unknown: 17:23

going to draw those kinds of lines, then all you're ever going to get from people like let's say right here, there's some line in the sand, a bowl below which you get fired. And so now we can reestablish that line with a with a word, quote, and a factory. Or we can reestablish that line with the amount of sort of mouse movement on the screen on your dining room table as you work from home, well, then that's what people are going to solve for, like, what are they going to solve for, they're going to solve for not getting fired. So you're going to get something slightly above that line? I think, you know, and again, I'm, I've been accused throughout my life of being bright eyed, bushy tailed optimist, all that kind of stuff. That's who I am, I guess, like, but I think it's much better, at least in theory, for people to unleash and give you something way beyond that line, you're never going to get that if they're solving for, you know, mouse movements on a screen, or where are my eyes looking. And frankly, it's pretty easy to go on Reddit or something else and download some software that will move your mouse for you as you go and go get your nails done or something you are saying like people will solve for the constraints in the system. I think our challenge as leaders is to put a system in place that, you know, yes, we need to draw clear lines around the field, but also allow for too dark, Dr. marguerites point, also allow for that magic to happen on that field and not be so you know, you remember those old like, there's a lot more magic that can happen on an actual ice rink that has perimeters and has, you know, lines around it than can be had on remember that those old video games in the arcade where it was like that globe. And the guys are just on those little lines. You don't say yeah, I'm talking about those kinds of hockey games. Like that's way more limited, right. And that's what you end up kind of creating in your work system. I think with tools like like that, you know what I mean?

Margarita Gurri: 19:00

I think so. One of the things that I've been struggling with more with companies is compliance with continuing education. So many companies have in house requirements, but also some of them have like for like, I'm a psychologist, so it might for my license for attorneys, social workers, finance people. And one of the big areas of conflict is depending on who is the the compliance entity. They have continued education online points where you have you can't fast forward, you can't look at the questions first, and then solve for the questions. If it takes an hour, it takes an hour and you can't fast forward and I think that's terrible. I think many people learn better by looking at the questions and then they solve for this questions. It's a focused reading. I believe you don't have to do drip, you can give it to them all at once and let them figure it out. And it's been interesting as I'm talking with different industries So how do they want to move forward with their conferences or their in house? Compliance Training? What what do you guys do about that? Because I know you're into compliance pick done.

Unknown: 20:14

You know, I think a lot of our training in general is broken. And I think it comes down to like, what people are solving for, right. And like what's important, on some level, if the most important thing is making sure everyone knows this compliance rule? Well, you can carve out four weeks, and people can come 40 hours a week to this training, and you're going to just bombard them with this stuff. So it really soaks into the brain, I'm obviously illustrating a ridiculous thing that no sort of sane business person is going to do, because that's going to be such a big portion of, of the year, and the productivity impact, and so forth. So people have tried to solve for this, you know, efficiency, effectiveness balance in many different ways. And there's a lot of theories around it. And there's a lot of sort of tech, technological limits around it. And then there's this added layer of, okay, here we go, here's some inside baseball, I'm tearing back the curtain, so you can see a little bit of the odds behind it. There's also a bunch of organizations that have sales teams that are out there selling a product that the owners don't want to make new investments in, right, I just, I'm a private equity firm, I just bought this eLearning company, I don't want to redo all my my courses, I don't want to redo my whole learning management software. So guys got to sell what they have. And there's a lot of talk tracks out there to sell kind of antiquated solutions, and that try to, you know, have certain benefits, right? Like, we're gonna minimize the time or we're gonna have the biggest impact or so forth. And people have to sit through the course, right, like, those decisions are some function of a confluence of a number of different factors. So and I,

Margarita Gurri: 21:42

but I think that we've been like, I've been hired by some companies to look at their training, that antiquated training, and find a way to fast forward it to more current ways of learning. Totally, and even some group learning. Yeah, for compliance. And it's been fun.

Unknown: 21:58

Yeah, it's probably fun, and probably the people like it a lot better. And, you know, to your point, people learn in a lot of different ways. And what I found the biggest, the biggest lacking in sort of compliance training in general, maybe all training is like, we don't reach across the aisle to the people in marketing to say, like, Well, how do you guys deliver a message? Well, they deliver it seven times, seven ways, right? I say something seven different ways, seven times. And that's, that's what I need to do in the marketplace to get my new product to launch or whatever. There's some elements of that we can borrow. And we can have compressed training, they can be Tik Tok style trainings, right? Like, what's the essence of the thing? What's the principle behind this, you know, bet this massive regulation that you as a compliance person or an ethic person probably have to know, inside and out, when somebody's working in a shop from floor or somebody's selling in some, you know, a, you know, some jurisdiction somewhere else in the world, they're not going to know it all inside and out. So what are the those core pieces? And how can you deliver those in ways that are actually going to be effective? And I think if we can open our minds up to, to your point, different ways to like deliver that information, you can probably achieve more more effectiveness and more efficiency,

Yonason Goldson: 23:01

that that flexibility and that creativity gives me an opportunity to circle back to the question you asked earlier, Dr. Which is the interplay between compliance and ethics. And the historical model that I go back to again and again. Not quite 2000 years ago, the Second Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans. And the sages investigated, in their own minds, what was the spiritual root of this calamity? why did why did the people deserve to have their temple destroyed and have their shit their capital raised and then be sent into exile? And one of the reasons they identified is because the people were not going beyond the letter of the law. Hmm. In other words, they were in compliance. And it's so striking to me, that of all the sins, it's possible to commit. This doesn't sound like it's anywhere near the top of the list

Margarita Gurri: 24:08

is not so much fun.

Yonason Goldson: 24:11

Fun, but there are a lot worse things. Maybe. But what it really means is that the people were using the law to subvert the law. Right, they were saying, I've checked the boxes. I'm in compliance, I did what I had to do. Now I'm off duty. Right. And that's, that's a, it's a toxic mindset. It is. We need compliance laws and we need compliance through those we need a standards and structure. But we also need the attitude, that that's just where it starts. I'd like to say that that ethics begins where compliance ends.

Unknown: 24:51

Yeah, it's like, it's like, it's like compliance or the bricks and ethics or like the mortar or, you know, compliance is like the letter of the law. and ethics are like the spirit of the law or the application beyond what's been, you know, articulated in the words on the page or something.

Yonason Goldson: 25:06

Exactly. Or compliance is the is the house and ethics was the furniture. Yeah.

Margarita Gurri: 25:14

Yeah, I think that's pretty interesting. And when people are all stressed out with all these changes, I've seen some companies go way back to just minimal compliance. And that's a great way to go backwards in their culture. You know, they're afraid to try new things. And my solution is to find out other people's solutions first. So what would you do then? You go to a company, they've been scared. So They've retreated. And they're nailing compliance. They've got it. But what do you do that? And that's not enough. So what's the next step?

Unknown: 25:55

Yeah, it's an interesting, it's an interesting question. And, you know, again, it's almost like a hierarchy of values, right? Like, can I grow like that? What's the safest thing? Right? The safest thing is like, never leave your house. But obviously you do that you don't experience the world and so forth. So how can I experience the world and grow and build something, while also sort of staying as reasonably safe as possible? Maybe that's it, maybe it's a question of materiality or reasonableness in pursuit of something, you know, something that's more primary? I don't know. It's, it's a tough question, though, is how do you because it's, it's it's like a moving living thing. We're talking about, like the amalgamation of all the values within this sort of theoretical company or whatever we're talking about, or whatever institution we're talking about. Those values are not just the words on the wall. It's really the gap between those words in the wall and the conglomeration of everybody's internal values and actual activities and so forth in pursuit of that mission. So it's just always moving. You know what I mean?

Margarita Gurri: 26:52

What are the images? Oops, go ahead, Rabbi.

Yonason Goldson: 26:56

It's what you said earlier about the, you know, the the physical trainer who is in terrible health and terrible eating habits. He's sabotage, sabotaging his own career. Because yeah, right credibility to do what He claims he's going to do.

Margarita Gurri: 27:12

Right. So one of the strongest images I had when I first came to this country is our neighbors took us to the zoo. And there was a circus. And so they were kind of like a site, there was a petting zoo, and then a circus. So we peeked into the circus, we didn't go there. But I had this amazing image. Because I was I felt doing that that high wire walk, I left the country and the language wasn't really part of the new country, or language or culture. And I felt like I was in the middle that I had no safety, my safety. And so the metaphor I've come to is that it's really it's that you know how with a high wire, there's these little places, little stands where they can hurry up and go and take a break, and then do the next one. I don't know what you'd call those, but the little safety stop places. And I think that's what they're called. Yeah, though. Yeah, I'm sure there's a very technical term, the safest way they call it buckets, the buckets Alright, so they get into the bucket. Although when I was a kid, they weren't buckets. It was a flat platform. And it looks pretty rickety look like my tree house. So going to then you to me, then the with the rabbi talking compliance is that safety blackboard. And the problem is that I see people need to have an excitement, about going to the next level that next bit of take that risk, you know, risking greatness in order to get the next compliance. The problem is then people say, Well, we've hit compliance, we're done. But I've seen very smart leaders creating a new kind of compliance with a corporate corporate culture that's stimulating and exciting and pushes people to contribute to their maximum ability. I've even seen schools doing that. They they ask the students what's working, what's not working? How would you like it to be? So they're asking all the stakeholders for that vision for that next high wire walk. And I think that's how I see the rabbi's relationship between compliance and ethics, which you have to have something exciting to look forward to, or no one's gonna risk. You don't move out of fear. We'd go backwards out of fear not forward.

Yonason Goldson: 29:39

That's right. That's right. Which is what you were saying earlier, Nick, that so much of the unwillingness to embrace the culture that's going to help us succeed comes from fear.

Unknown: 29:53

Totally. I think that's totally right. I'm just I'm just kind of struck by that image of you know, walking across the the title wrote to the next thing and what's gonna make us want to take that take that plunge, so to speak, well plunges probably the wrong word, analogy. But, you know, to go for it, you know. And as you got, as you were kind of talking about that there's this book that the guy who runs Netflix put out, I think, maybe a year or so ago, and it talks about the culture. With that, Mark Randolph? Yeah, it might be. And I never remember who writes books. So but he was talking about the culture that they built. And I think Reed Hastings maybe. And he, he was talking about, you know, what, we got to boil all this down, this code of conduct can really be boiled down to one sentence is, like, always do what's in the best interest of Netflix. And so if you're doing something that's, you know, perhaps slightly out of compliance, or beyond some rule that's been clearly articulated, well, if you can point back and make a credible case for what you were doing, you know, was in fact, in the best interest of the organization, that kind of allowed for both the coloring within the lines, you know, kind of coloring, you know, painting on the canvas, so to speak. But without feeling like you have to just paint by numbers you don't I mean, allow for that creativity that the doctor was talking about, and allow for some of that, that that risk taking, that really has allowed this organization to, you know, move to the next level.

Margarita Gurri: 31:17

I put the video by Reed Hastings in the chat. For you. I think it addresses what you were talking about? Well, it sounds like you and your brother are doing a really good job of of that you're helping people. You're You're the Sherpa, maybe you're the Sherpa to the next step, right?

Unknown: 31:35

Yeah, um, you know, thanks, thanks for saying that we'll kind of see, It's like that old Zen thing, that old Zen saying of, you know, we'll kind of see at the end of the day, if that was the right decision, or we're doing good job, like, you know, the impact should end up speaking for itself, if we can build a great company that people look back on in Somnus, that our clients, at the end of the day are happy with the service that we're providing, then that's great, you know, we've just always tried to be, you know, to your point, we've tried to be Sherpas, like we're climbing this mountain of risk, we have insights, that that might help folks, but we're not the star of the show. Our clients are the stars, and they're the ones who are, you know, the arbiters of their own workforce. And they're the ones who are trying to, you know, create workplaces that are better than unlocked that unlock the magic of the people that that come there every day. And if we can help them up that mountain, then I think we're doing our job.

Margarita Gurri: 32:22

I think your lack of ego will serve your clients. Well. Thank you.

Yonason Goldson: 32:27

So that's something that word risk, because on the one hand, we want to avoid risk. But on the other hand, there has to be an element of risk. Otherwise, we're not pushing ourselves to the next level. That's right.

Margarita Gurri: 32:43

And unfortunately, some people are naturally more risk averse. And then the people who are under them, they would do well to have that are not risk averse. So that you have a balance. Yeah, but then hiring for diversity. That's one of the factors we need to look at.

Unknown: 33:00

Yeah, that's a great point, I think in a sort of a natural hierarchy. There's some natural emulation of your leader, and the values that they espouse. And so if you have a highly risk averse leader, who's not like actualized, and sees, sees the potential complementarity, sometimes that quote, unquote, risky behavior can get stamped out pretty quickly, when that might be what they need to really balance that out and push beyond a level. So it's really a hard thing to navigate. And there's no you know, silver bullet solution, other than I think, having an eye toward your own weakness, having an eye toward like, you know, minimizing your ego, recognizing that we're all not perfect. And that part of the whole magic of one plus one equaling three or five or something more than two, is that synergy that can come from other folks who can fill in our own gaps, you know what I mean?

Yonason Goldson: 33:49

Because that's the secret of great partnership, is when you have people have different strengths, different perspectives. And what what I like to say is that diversity is again not about checking boxes. It's about creating a representative representation of different viewpoints that are respectful of one another while constantly looking for common ground looking for as you say, what's best for all of us together in a way that doesn't sacrifice individuals along the way? Well put Yeah, I think

Unknown: 34:27

that's about on No, it's so it's so interesting that it's so hard like it's so apparent in basic but like our egos get in the way and I'm sure we can fall into a psychology rabbit hole kind of talking about that, but it's so it's so crippling to our organizations like this fear fuel that like plagues our workplaces, you know, creates anxiety and folks it you know, stifles them. They're like a bunch of potted plants that are kept in a closet that don't get any sunlight, and then they bring that energy back home, and then their kids absorb it and it goes into their community. I mean, it's like, their, you know, our kind of motto is to make the world a better workplace. And it sounds trite sometimes. But it's like, if we can make workplaces better than is such multiplicative effects, if somebody can be unleashed if the magic in them can be unleashed, and they love the work that they're doing, and they feel valued, and they feel heard, that has so many knock on effects that, you know, again, make our child's lives better and make our, our children's lives better, and our communities better and all that kind of stuff. So it's all connected. You know what I mean?

Yonason Goldson: 35:25

As long as you raise that, that, Nick, you have a really lovely story on your website about an incident between your daughter and her teacher. Could you share that story with

Unknown: 35:33

us? Yeah, it was a I'm so proud of her like she is this little lion like if you saw her, you'd be like, Oh, how cute little dainty she has she has like the spirit of a lion in her and beautiful that way her yeah, thank you so much. I'm just so proud of her. She's like, she's, she always speaks up she'll, she'll always stand up for she's done it for her whole life. It's really crazy. But the long story short is she had a an African American teacher, who she loves, she was very close with. And we live in the south. And there's some backwards thinking down here still, for sure. Not not everywhere by any means. But you know, you'll see it from time to time. And this little girl in her class went up to this teacher and she said she told her that I don't like you, your skin is gross. You're you know, you're black. I don't like your black skin, all this stuff. And my daughter ran up to her. And she said you don't say that to Ms. She has the same name as my daughter, Miss Val. She says you don't say that to miss Val. Miss val is beautiful. And while Wow. And it had such an impact on on this teacher might this teacher told my wife this story with tears streaming down down her face. Because, you know, she saw somebody speak up on her behalf this little girl who was you know, four or five years old. So it's, uh, I'm very proud of that story. I'm very proud of the way my wife is raising her and the way you know, she's kind of turning out. And it's very early in the game, of course. But um, yeah, just to, you know, that courage, you know, like, it was wrong. And she was gonna say that it was wrong, and she wasn't going to let that stand. And I mean, I can go on and on about it. But it was like, such a proud moment for me, you know? Well,

Margarita Gurri: 37:13

and I'm sure that our daughter is proud of you and her mother as well.

Yonason Goldson: 37:17

Oh, thank you. Our the story is that, you know, children that age, they don't simply become this way by themselves. Yeah, they're absorbing, for better and for worse, what they're exposed to. And on some level, you know, we are always children. And as you've said, in a work environment, we will absorb the culture around a point and problems you become self perpetuating. Which means that solutions can become self perpetuating. Also, where's the will to implement?

Unknown: 37:52

Yeah, there's those knock on effects. And you know, to your point about children, like, I've never seen two babies and daycare, like be racist to each other. They learn that and like this, this little girl who was being mean to this teacher, she didn't just come up with that on her own. She heard that at home, or she heard that from her grandfather or whatever. So you're right. It's all controlled TV show. Yeah, right. I don't know what she was watching maybe some old, some old sitcoms or something. But it's all contagious. And it can all it can all to your point, bleed on to other things. And nothing grows in like a linear fashion. Like, if you watch a plant grow, it doesn't grow the same amount every day, it burst through the soil, and it starts going really fast. And then you see the, the, the leaves on furrow, and so forth. And that's the potential of what you're talking about in terms of us all being children, if you if we if you can unleash a little bit of that and your your workforce, if you can at least do a little bit of that magic, it can start to like really just, you know, it can kind of catch fire in a good way, you know,

Yonason Goldson: 38:50

and you don't make a plant grow. There is a story in China a few years ago, that watermelons in the field started exploding. Because it was a cash crop, and they're trying to get them to grow faster. Oh, they gave them steroids. Interesting. And literally putting watermelons blowing, exploding in the fields. You can't make something grow. What do you do you create an environment that is conducive, and then we naturally grow by ourselves.

Unknown: 39:22

What a great story. There's so many lessons in that story. That's crazy. That's a crazy story. He can't force it. It has to naturally happen. And you you the best you can do is create the circumstances for it to happen, and then just let it happen. Right? Yeah.

Margarita Gurri: 39:35

That's why we're here. The exciting part about that. And just like many of the COVID learning stories is I see many exciting leaders asking themselves Why didn't this work? What do we need now? What do you think I see a lot of people because of their fear, or they let their fear catapult them to curiosity to listen to More to ask him more questions. And I think fear and anxiety can be great catalysts on the path to growth if we use them as gifts.

Unknown: 40:11

Well, yeah. And I think, to that point, I read this. And if it's not true, I'm going to keep saying it because it feels that like, the chemical reactions going on in your body, when you're anxious for something, or you're excited for something are the same. It's really about how we're framing it. So if you're nervous before a speech, you can just reframe that as being excited for that speech. And if you can reframe this anxiety as something that, hey, there's something I don't understand, I can change this anxiety and fear into curiosity to your point, then you can uncover some things that you didn't see before, versus just kind of burrowing deeper into the habits that you've already established, you know?

Margarita Gurri: 40:43

Yeah, these are exciting times to be sure. And yeah, you and your brother, certainly doing your share to help the world get to a better place, I think is very exciting.

Unknown: 40:53

Thank you. Do you think these are more exciting times than in the past? Or do you feel like I do? You do? I do. Think I think it's an investor.

Margarita Gurri: 41:01

I think it's an opportunity for us as a society to look at the workforce. Does everyone work better in the workplace? Who works better at home? In what combination? How do we lead different kinds of people in different industries for different tasks? I think it's an exciting time of explosion, a renaissance of learning and growing. Yeah,

Unknown: 41:22

it might be That's how I see you might be right. It's like this. It's like this crazy inflection point. It's like we're moving from this industrial age. There's this like generational shift happening. We have this work from home Catalyst, and feels like

Margarita Gurri: 41:33

from home, how many of us became reluctant homeschoolers?

Unknown: 41:37

Yeah, yeah, that was thrust on a lot of folks. But again, to your point, that was 13 years from now, who knows what our world's gonna look like? I think you're right, though, it's gonna look way different.

Yonason Goldson: 41:47

I'll just change that's really changed. I mean, everything keeps accelerating. And the challenge is for us to keep up with it. Right? It's

Margarita Gurri: 41:58

simple. No, anticipate where it might go. So that we can sometimes do more than keep up and, and use the trajectory to kind of create a future and then ask ourselves, how did we get there? Yeah, and, you know, it's an exercise that I have a lot of people do, what is the future look like? Now? How'd you get there? Rather than going feeling backwards all the time gives us a little more excitement about the possibilities. So what would you say, Nick?

Unknown: 42:27

Oh, I was just gonna say like, if you're a surfer, and you want to go surfing one day, you may know that, like, the waves are going to be good that day, but you don't know which wave you're going to serve, you don't know how that's going to actually move. Like, you'll have a general sense of how surfing works, of course, but you just kind of take it as it comes, and you're just gonna go and kind of ride those waves. And you never hear a surfer talking about like, Oh, I didn't ride the wave, I thought I was gonna ride it, you just get the next wave or you make the arrangements, you know, like, there's a certain fluidity to it. That sort of naturally comes when you're interacting with nature. And I think we get this maybe illusion that because it's business and because there's these sort of structures and lattices and, you know, technology and rules and all this stuff, that it's not this sort of force of nature. But if we can borrow from some of that maybe surfer mentality, it'll help us navigate through it and kind of take it as it comes a little bit better.

Margarita Gurri: 43:15

Maybe we're like you, Mr. Fantastic. I mean, I think we can borrow different superhero powers, right, depending on what we need, whether it's flexibility or ability to create heat, which is excitement and catalysts, you know, whatever. Right. So Rabbi, is it time for the word of the day,

Unknown: 43:33

word of the day. My favorite part of the show?

Yonason Goldson: 43:37

Is because becoming my favorite part of the show, because it feels like there's a certain divine divine inspiration that comes here. I try to pick a word that has some resonance with resonance with our guests. But it's remarkable how often the the conversation tees up the word of the day which today is insouciant, insouciant. And it means free from concern, worry or anxiety. And that sounds like a good thing. We don't want to worry too much or be overly concerned or anxious. But at the same time, it also means carefree and nonchalant. And that's not necessarily such a good thing. Because it is important for us to take like seriously you know, is it don't be so serious. But you have to be a little bit serious because life is serious business. And so what we've been talking about really all the way through is striking this balance and you know, you really set this up so, so well for me, Nick with the your comment about anxiety, we can take anxiety and transmute it into excitement, if we can can take the potentially caustic emotions that we're all subjected to and reframe them and reach them. Have them and direct them in a way that's positive. One effect is that we don't create this impossible ideal, that life is just supposed to be bliss and comfortable and full of joy. You know, we all want to be happy, but we never define what happiness is or where it comes from. And if we don't have some tension in our lives, if we don't have struggle, that we're not going to feel we're making progress. We're not going to feel we're accomplishing anything, we're not going to feel we're growing at all. And so it's that that balance, what's the right level of tension, keep it at tension, don't let it become anxiety. Don't be too serious. But be serious, don't become Cavalier. This is really the challenge of living a good life, which is so much a part of being an ethical life, and starting with a foundation of compliance that allows us to grow and to strive, and to really create wonderful things with our lives and with our cultures.

Unknown: 46:02

Yeah, so it's it sounds like, it's okay to be a little insouciant. You got to be a little insouciant. You know, but don't go too crazy with it. But you know, I think it's something that struck me and I kind of say this a lot. A lot of us go through life as if we're like, performing brain surgery. And that has no room for error, right? You're doing brain surgery, you mess one thing up the person's vegetable. Life is a lot more like baseball than it is like brain surgery, baseball, you can strike out two out of three times and you can still wind up in the Hall of Fame. So just recognizing that as you're kind of crossing that tightrope from bucket to bucket or whatever you call it safe platform to safe platform, there's probably a safety net underneath it, and you falling off of it. It's not everyone's gonna leave the circus. in a huff, it's probably gonna be fine, you'll get back up and you can climb it again, that allows us to take a little bit more risk and recognize that life is not binary. It's, there's a lot of gray, maybe you want to read a book about the gray there a doctor or a rabbi, but I'm grappling with the grappling with the gray, but I'm not. But I mean, in actuality, it's not this binary thing. It's all this. It's all this gray. And there's all this room for there's all this room for for error. And we're not automatons and trying something new and striking out here or there is what allows us to hit those that next level of pitch, you know what I mean?

Yonason Goldson: 47:19

Well, that is a without any prompting for me, Nick, that was a great, final message for us. And thank you for your time and your wisdom. It was a pleasure. We look forward to the next time you can join us. And Dr. What's the last word?

Margarita Gurri: 47:36

Well, before the second to the last word, the penultimate is I think we have chosen our guest. Well, I, I am excited about what you and your brother have done, Nick. We have with us Nick Gallo. And he's a compliance line calm. And I guess the question is, what are you doing with this unusual and unprecedented opportunity to use ethics as your jumping off point for greatness? What are you doing to leverage the power of ethics to become all that you never thought you could be but can be if you can imagine it, you can reach it, but more importantly, if someone around you can imagine it, you can certainly go farther than with just one person working on the future. So that that is my thought to to end there. And I wish everyone a wonderful holiday. And welcome to the rabbi in the strength we're going to be putting it on our YouTube channels. If you have questions, please send them to podcast at the rabbi in the shrink comm. And Nick you can reach them most at compliance. line.com Nick, thanks again for joining us. It was fascinating.

Unknown: 48:55

Thank you so much for having me. This is a blast. Say hi to your brother and

Margarita Gurri: 48:59

tell them hi for us. Okay, I will absolutely will. And your daughter. Let her know how proud we are of her. I will I will be talking about this all night. Absolutely. Thank you guys.