The Rabbi and The Shrink

#44: Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski - The Courage to Communicate

January 06, 2022 Rabbi Yonason Goldson and Dr. Margarita Gurri, CSP Episode 44
The Rabbi and The Shrink
#44: Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski - The Courage to Communicate
Show Notes Transcript

How do we bridge the distance between the speaker and the listener?

Why is speaking truth to power both an illusive and a sought-after commodity?

Why is shooting the messenger really shooting yourself?

These and other fascinating and relevant questions are addressed when leadership guru Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski joins The Rabbi and the Shrink.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/kimihirotsuziemski/

https://ksppartnership.com/

1:00 What is the responsibility of the asker and the askee?

Commitment to time, energy, and understanding

Fear of appearing stupid or insensitive

Lack of confidence that we can clearly express ourselves

We think it’s safer to stay silent, which sets us up for failure


5:00  William H. Whyte:  the greatest problem of communication is the illusion that it has taken place

It doesn’t matter how hard we try to be clear if we don’t succeed

The courage to say:  I’m not clear


8:00 Take responsibility, using humor or self-deprecation

Beware of being “bullied by your own admiration”

Accidental bullying

Responsible third party interventions


12:00  You will surely rebuke your neighbor, but don’t bear a sin because of him

Love rebuke

Rebuke = validation

Timing, wording, privacy, pure motivation

We are all so insecure today, that giving and receiving rebuke is almost impossible, yet it is a leader’s obligation


15:00  The follower’s responsibility to follow wisely and follow wise leaders

If you “shoot the messenger” you won’t receive many messages

Every leader needs a trusted advisor


20:00 The first follower transforms a lone wolf (or a nut job) into a leader

The price of short-term discomfort vs the value of long-term success

Create a culture of trust


26:00 Our attitude toward learning and growth comes from upbringing and social norms

Why is speaking truth to power both an illusive and a sought-after commodity?

Have the courage to step up and make a difference

Have the courage to say what needs to be said


34:00 Insecurity promotes rationalization, which is to everyone’s detriment

Find a back door when you can’t confront problems head on


36:30  Word of the Day:  Zeugma

the use of a word to modify or govern two or more words usually in such a manner that it applies to each in a different sense or makes sense with only one

“They covered themselves with dust and glory.” – Mark Twain

Ethical behavior serves us and others in different ways.

Consider the difference between the process and the outcome


45:00 How do we invite others into the conversation?

Start by clearing our mental palate from intellectual junk food

Inspire others to ask us about being more than we are

Start small

What one thing can you do!



Margarita Gurri:

This is Dr. Margarita Gurri, Dr. Red Shoe with my favorite Rabbi

Yonason Goldson:

Yonason Goldson

Margarita Gurri:

and Rabbi You and I are smart enough to invite Kimi Ziemski again to talk to us. Hi, Kimmy.

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski:

Hey, I'm delighted to be here. Oh, you're wrong. Everybody does that the first time in a long time. I have old friends I went to high school with about a bazillion years ago. And one of them called me up the other day and said So Kim. Oh, Kimmy. Don't worry about it.

Margarita Gurri:

Well, I I think Kimi is a great name. Sorry, I misspoke. So let's talk about the topic that Kimi proposed, which is something that I believe we touched on the last time Kimmy was on the rabbi issue, we're having an interaction then come with the role of people in different communications conversations, and processes dealing with ethics. And the question that Kimi poses today follows up from that beautifully. What is the role and responsibility of askers? And the Ask ease? Alright, Kimi, take it away.

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski:

Well, lately, I've been noticing there's a an odd sense of tension. And as a project leader, my team is in place to serve both the sponsor and the client. And that means that sometimes people on either side of that equation are unsure about how much power they hold. And sometimes the members of my team are unsure about how much power that I have given them. You hold a responsibility when you ask people to expand massive amounts of energy, massive amounts of their talent, and in some cases, massive amounts of inquiry, because they don't actually know how to do what you're asking them to do. And they can't believe that you think they do. But now all of a sudden, we've got this communications issue, because the asker didn't necessarily think about what they are asking. The ASCII is now a little worry, okay, a lot worry about what they're responding to. And everybody in the middle is saying, Why do I get the feeling this conversations come right off the rails? And it's, it's occurred to me and I would dearly love to know, Rabbi, for example, what is it about the tension? In asking? Between the asker and the ASCII? What is it about the tension of where the responsibility does? Or doesn't lie? To say, Gosh, that's not a good idea?

Yonason Goldson:

That is a really interesting question. And I think we could probably go on and on with it. There's so many different layers to and and some of them we were talking about before we started recording. Often, we don't want to feel like we're asking a stupid question. And you know, when we were kids in school, we were often told there are no stupid questions. I used to, I used to tell my students, the only stupid question is the one that's being answered while your hands up waiting to ask. Because especially among young people, the hand goes up and the brain turns off and the only thing they can think of is as adults do. I'm so focused on my question. I don't know this is being asked answered. So sometimes it's our listening skills. Sometimes it's our fear of seeming inadequate. Sometimes it's our lack of confidence that we can articulate the question that we have. And today especially, there is this pervasive fear that I'm going to say something that offends somebody. And then somehow, my question will be interpreted as as an attack, or will expose me as socially insensitive. All these layers just make it safer, to stay quiet. And that sets us up for failure. Because that was one of my favorite movie quotes from Cool Hand Luke. What we'll have here is a failure to communicate. And that really, so many of our problems could be easily avoided. If we be more willing to speak, more willing to Listen. And we're willing to do the hard work of figuring out where the communication is breaking down, or that it might be because sometimes we don't even notice when it is.

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski:

There's a quote from William White that is often attributed to George Bernard Shaw, the greatest problem in communications is the illusion that it is taking place. William White with a why not an AI? Yes. And it's always attributed to George Bernard Shaw. And I'd like to think that George Bernard Shaw attributed it accurately. It seems to have lost that attribution over the ages. But I love that quote, because the greatest danger I believe, that we as leaders stand in is the the belief that because we have said something as clearly as we can, we labored over the wording and the the specific points at which we pause to let the points think in we've labored over that, or in some cases, we just should have done. That communication is taking place now. I pronounced, you listened. We're good. Yeah. And I think that at that moment, when I see that happening, I inevitably put up my hand and just say, I am perfectly willing to sound idiotic. But I'm not sure that I understood it, which means there's gotta be at least one more person here, who doesn't. And I would raise my hand and say, I'm not entirely clear about what it is you want me to do. Usually, because a

Yonason Goldson:

doctor have you,

Margarita Gurri:

at least once, at least once. So a lot of times when we're asking people to do something, it's maybe scarier than if we're talking about ideas or whatever. Because the idea of doing something I think makes people wonder, do they look incompetent, like you were talking about by the appearance as well? So I think the idea of asking, I always just say, let's pretend I don't understand, could you say it again, in a different way? And, and you know, what, even if I do understand if I think other people in the room don't. But lack of clarity is always clear to other people, not to ourselves.

Yonason Goldson:

My Rabbi used to say when he was teaching, and then a student would offer a suggestion, he would say, I'm very stupid. Explain this to me. So I can understand. Various, you know, it sort of takes some of that tension away.

Margarita Gurri:

It is funny, put it on

Yonason Goldson:

me. I'm the one with it with with a learning disability.

Margarita Gurri:

So that's one of the things that I think he may we were talking about before that if the response may have asked for an ASCII is to take responsibility for your process, adding a sense of humor, inviting clarity, asking for clarity, things like that. And I think it's something that sometimes we think is just the person in charge his job to make sure we all understand well, that doesn't work, does it?

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski:

Well, at least not in my teams.

Margarita Gurri:

I don't know any functional team that you have is great example, Kimi. Tell us that story again, freeze.

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski:

Oh, recently. And, and you had a phrase that I will now shamelessly recently, a pillar of the project management community was in a conversation and it was an open forum with someone who was fairly new to the project management community, and well fairly new to the professional environment to begin with, but had done enough homework to have a professional crush, if you will, on this person who's been a part of this professional community for decades. And so the might pillar of the project management community. So Oh, and made a request of our, you know, brand new professional, to which the professional and may I attribute this the wonderful spring, got bullied by his own admiration, and said, Yes, I will do this. And in the background, a colleague reached out to me and said to either one of them understand how much time they just committed Have each other? And I wrote back and said, I don't know, I really don't think so at which point, somebody I said I was just about to ask somebody else said, let me just make sure that I understand what it is. Because this is a wonderful research idea. And when we me paraphrase it, could you please tell me where I might have misunderstood something, and they blurted it out. And there was this dead silence. And even on these little bitty headshot screens of a virtual forum, you could see both of them kind of go into shock. And luckily, our seasoned veteran said, I can't believe I just asked you have that ask that of you. And I didn't even check to see if you've got the time or the bandwidth for this. I am so sorry. Let's meet offline. And let's see what we can do about this. And in the meantime, you know, the newbie was kind of like, yeah, because he started talking up in his mind, all of the hours that he had accidentally just given his hero, and he was darned if he was going to take it back. Because, as you said, bullied by his own admiration. And I thought, we as askers we have I think, more responsibility, then we, we often realize, because we can accidentally bully somebody because they, they, they absolutely, you are the last person they want to say no to.

Yonason Goldson:

But look at look at the upside of that story is that because people were watching out for each other. And because this pillar was willing to acknowledge, wow, I just really went off the rails there. And he owned it. And so a potential catastrophe was averted in a few moments without any hard feelings.

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski:

Which gets back to his story, a comment that you had told us earlier about, and I am sure I'm not going to get it right, but something about not lapsing into sin when offering a rebuke. Rabbi, tell us that one. Yes, please. Because I remember thinking, wow, that is that easy guideposts to use? It makes so much sense.

Yonason Goldson:

Yeah, there there are a few layers here the Scripture says, You will surely rebuke your fellow your neighbor, but don't bear a sin on his behalf. And the sages reformulate this and they teach us to love rebuke. Now, of course, we all love rebuke, don't we go

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski:

more than we want? To say it depends on which end I'm supposed to love.

Yonason Goldson:

So why should we love rebuke? So interestingly, in Hebrew, the root word, that means rebuke, that same route is also has the meaning of validate. Because if I rebuke you, what am I doing, I'm saying I believe in your ability to do better. And that can be an empowering statement. If the review is given the right way, at the end of the verse from warns us don't bear a sin, because if I don't give rebuke the right way, and that means the right timing, the right wording has to be private, has to be with an understanding, and I have to be motivated by genuine concern and caring, not, I'm on a power trip. And I want to I want to bring you down, right, all of these guys that affect our modern day sages say, it is almost impossible to give rebuke in this generation. Because we are all so insecure. And we're also ready to attribute ulterior motives and Ill ill intentions, and that very few people have the capacity to accept rebuke. But if I'm in a leadership position, I have an obligation to do just that. But that obligation extends to how I give it to create the best possible opportunity for that rebuke to be received. Not just be give.

Margarita Gurri:

Well, let's go back to what Kimi was saying. And I think rabbi, your story is just so very beautiful. I think that the context of trust as Kimi was saying, and the trust that The culture of questioning and and I think that if you have that trust and respect and the practice of yourself allowing to be rebuke or you rebuke yourself, how do you set the tone? So, Kimi, you're referring to the rabbi's rebuke scripture. What had you in mind for that? Because I love where your mind was going with it.

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski:

Oh, good heavens, I can't remember where?

Margarita Gurri:

Well, you can, wherever you want, then

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski:

what I was thinking about just now was that the the dynamics of a culture also, where there are leaders, there are followers. My good friend Oliver Lehman's suggests that followers are the integral component of leadership, and that the followers bear a responsibility to make a wise choice in who they willingly follow and make a wise choice about how they interact with their leaders. So while we started out talking about the responsibility of leaders in an asking situation, I tell my teams all the time, look, you're on the ground, you know what's going on, at a much more concrete level than I do, and you're going to see things that I'm not in a position to know, my responsibilities to take responsibility for things getting done, your responsibility is to make sure that I don't unwittingly make a crummy decision, because I don't have the information that you do. So part of my responsibility is to make sure that you are comfortable telling me if I accidentally start shooting the messenger means I'm one of those people who has her immediate reaction, pretty much ringing all over my face and 10 letters, you know, somebody comes in and says, Kimmy, the, you know, those components that we ordered? Gonna be late. And my first reaction is something like, nuts. what's this gonna do to? And it can, I've learned the hard way. It can come across as shooting the messenger. And of course, are you ever going to get important news that you need, but do not want to hear from that individual again? Well, no. And I was so dense, I didn't understand my responsibility as leader, that it got to the point where people would poke their heads into my office doorway, give me the news, and they were ready to run. They wouldn't even step into the doorway. They just kind of, you know, poke their heads. And then, and I remember thinking, What on earth is going on with that? And I asked somebody, and she said, Well, you've gotten kind of a reputation for having an emotional response. And I said, Yeah, well, that's kind of who I am they surely they don't take it personally. She said, Are you kidding me? Are you kidding me? Their Max bonus is predicated on how well you as a team do and you're going. Yeah, they take it personally. And I realized I had not built the proper context of trust that I had with that individual who'd known me for 15 years, and collaborate with me on seven different major projects. So I like to think that at some point, every body as an asker can have that conversation of hey, what's going on here? But what if they don't have somebody like I had a trusted advisor who can say, well, you know, frankly, they're terrified of you. They're really scared of you. Let Allow me. How could they be scaring me?

Margarita Gurri:

See, I don't think you were being dense. I think you were being a naive leader. I think that we all think everyone kind of knows how we mean, and how are we meant to say that or, you know, innocent me or whatever, what we really mean? Yes. What we really mean and how we really are with that Zoom filter of perfection, right? Yeah, I like to take that autocorrect zoom filter wherever I go. I think that would be good. I think that, you know, I forget who was talking about followership, I was talking to is a military group and we talked about leaders, and I said everyone in the room is a leader. So I asked him who was a leader and someone said, stood up and said, everyone here is a leader. I said, Okay, should they stand up? Said Yes, stand up now. I could have taken it away from her and had Everyone stand up, but it was her idea. So how do we follow up with somebody and give them power? So she had everyone stand up. And the trick is she was right. We're followership is leadership. Every leader shines only as brightly as the followers are willing to help them lead wisely. Correct. And I think you have created a, a good leadership team there where they say, Hey, Kimmy, you missed the boat. Okay, thank you. I think that's very important. But I don't think you're dense. I'm gonna defend you're not it's not a wonderful

Yonason Goldson:

video. I think it's a TED talk, I'm not sure. But it shows this fella get up in the middle of it's a big, open grassy space, people are picnicking, and there are a lot of people there. And this one guy gets up and he starts doing a dance. And try to imagine the worst dancer you've ever seen. Oh, and that's what this guy is doing. flailing around jumping up and down. And you can see all these people, you know, given them the eye, and it goes on for a bit, until a second person gets up. And just behind him starts doing the same kind of dance. And very quickly, more people start joining. Until eventually you see everybody on the Greenspaces running to be part of this wacky behavior. And the point of the video is this guy, he started dancing, he was just a nutjob until somebody started to follow him. And as soon as somebody started to follow Him, that made him a leader. And once he was a leader, everybody else started to fall. It's a fascinating study in human psychology, that we want to be part of something greater than ourselves, and we'll attach ourselves to almost anything. Once we become convinced that it's the thing to do, so if you have a responsible leader, who's leading people in a way that really has value, and you have followers who commit themselves to that, that's when you end up with a really successful enterprise.

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski:

I would agree. I'm currently doing some study on the topic of connective leadership, which makes me feel slightly embarrassed to admit that I can't remember the name of the wonderful woman who wrote it. But her idea of connective leadership is that you must focus on the dynamics that you have as a leader with the people who follow you, and therefore made you a leader worth following. And part of your responsibility is to make sure that you spot those moments that each one of them has, where their leadership can shine through, and where their leadership can make the team as a whole, more powerful and more productive. And, and it's a fascinating idea that there is responsibility on both sides. And that's something I would like to see more people having a conversation on, that there is responsibility on both sides to make that equation work. That clarity is worth pursuing. And that just because it's news that you didn't really want to hear likely deliveries, doesn't mean that you don't need to hear it and it doesn't mean that it actually isn't going to be quite a blessing. Yes, thank you. Jean Lipman, Bert woman. Yeah. Amazing, amazing author. Very, very wise. And one of the things that I try to encourage my students to to look at my coaching clients to look at is what is the price of a little short term discomfort against the value of being able to make a so much better decision going on later. And yes, connective leadership Jean Lipman? bloomin Yes. Yeah, I highly recommend it.

Yonason Goldson:

It's such a no brainer. I mean, what do I want? Do I want to continue making mistakes? Or do I want to correct the mistakes? reminded of a cartoon I saw years ago, the CEO His title is underlined. He says I hate yes man. Don't you agree Perkins? The leaders job is to create a culture. Yeah, man. mention this before that when the when the High Court of sages would convene to discuss a point of Jewish law, the first person to speak was the most junior member of the court. Because the leader of the court speaks first was going to argue with him. But if you start with a junior and you move your way up, then everyone feels comfortable to agree or disagree. And of course, part of the responsibility of the head of the court at that point is to keep the stone face. Because if he starts nodding, or you start shaking his head, then that's signaling to everybody else, what answer he's looking for. And so the responsibility of that leadership is to allow the voices to speak their minds in a way where they feel comfortable doing that, you get the widest possible diversity of insights, opinions, points of view. And therefore you're more, you're better positioned to get to the best possible answer, or the most truthful, insight and then and an evaluation.

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski:

And yet, if I may, Doctor, would you agree that our perspective about whether or not I want to learn to be more accurate, I want to learn to be more clear, can in fact, be really rooted in the habits and social mores of our the culture that we grew up in our first organization, the family?

Margarita Gurri:

Absolutely, so our cultural background, our experiences, for all the different aspects of that make us male or female, or somewhere in between what culture religion, refugee or not all those status points. And it makes a big difference, then what the role of the ASCII is. So the role of leader obviously, is vary depending on where we go. But the role of ASCII is sometimes just to take it. And I think that what we can look at leaders and know that they're leading effectively for the particular group that they're leading, is it ASCII, these can be like the rabbi was talking about the young, the junior rabbi who can ask the questions, or share an opinion because then you can have true creativity and implementation, right. So let's talk about the role of the ASCII how come so many eskies besides cultural issues are just quiet? Why do they say nothing to further along the growth?

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski:

It is, in my opinion, whatever that the answer to that question is, tells you why truth to power is such an elusive and yet sought after commodity it. It is a it is resident in both the definition of truth and the volume of power. I am beginning to despair a little bit that we live in an environment and a time where fear drives so much of our behavior, that what we could take responsibility for what we could be responsible for advancing is not nearly as powerful as what we're afraid would happen if it goes wrong, or if it doesn't go perfectly. And so I wish I had the answer to that question.

Margarita Gurri:

And that's a great response. And yet, if they try something without ever, ever, ever spoken up, the ASCII is certainly easy to know who to blame. And that doesn't make it true. Because if something doesn't work, well, we're all to blame. Right? It is all a responsible, you know, blame is a reactive term. I'm not allowed to use it. It's certainly not nice, but I'm using the word. Because that's what many people do. They're afraid to take responsibility because they'll fail. Not only do they not have the confidence to fail, knowing that you get up, and it wasn't Denzel Washington who does his great commencement speech and he says, You get up, you fall down seven times get up eight, and it was beautiful his speech. It's a rallying call to anyone to have the courage to be someone who makes a difference. And I think he speaks to your despair. And if everyone did what Denzel Washington said to do, I think, I think we wouldn't despair because everyone would have the courage to step up. And to help everyone else step up.

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski:

At one point, my late husband and I had an agreement having both come from families with, shall we say not overly abundant resources. And we had done well. So we put aside money because he had retired at that point, and I was significantly younger than he is, was. And we put aside money that he referred to as the Kimi go to Hades fund. At Hades, I tried to get him to stop saying health so much. So he called it the Kimi go to Hades fund. And it was a year, a year of our expenses. So that if somebody asked me as a project manager, or as an employee to do something, ever again, that I was not comfortable doing that, I felt was in question of, you know, my belief system, or was asking more than I felt that they had a right to ask me to try to pull from my team. I could be completely fearless with my response, because I wouldn't be worrying that if I did say something, and I did get fired our house No, would not get paid or things like that. And you know what the remarkable thing was, it gave me the courage to say the things I learned to say I'm a little softer after a while to say things and question things. And I didn't get fired. I didn't get ostracized? Well, a couple of my colleagues didn't get taken aback. But when I left, at the end of a nice long career when I left, one of the people that I sparred with most frequently said, you know, it's kind of interesting, you made a whole career out of being the stupidest person in the room. Because I would start the question with look, I may be stupid, or I may have brain burped here. I think I miss something that connected this to this. Could you please? Sorry, could you connect them for me? And I said, and he looked at me said, you know, we all knew your urine. Stupid, right? And I said, Well, in that moment, I wasn't paying enough attention. So yeah, I was being a little stupid. But it didn't mean I am stupid. It just means there's been a little stupid. But this is something I would like people to think about. What if you had that safety net? Are you that sure you would need it? Are you because maybe you're not giving the people who are doing the asking enough credit for their sense of integrity and fairplay. And that's something I would like more asking us to do is to have a sense of integrity that gives other people the room to be better versions of themselves, and maybe we give them credit for

Margarita Gurri:

and I think your was your late husband's name, Walter,

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski:

Walter Walter,

Margarita Gurri:

the Walter fund, I think that's great. I think

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski:

that's so much nicer than the Kimiko, the Hadees.

Margarita Gurri:

I think that we're good to go the Hadees. That was a beautiful thing he did for the two of you. It by what we're going to say.

Yonason Goldson:

It's such a compelling insight that when we don't feel secure, whether it's in who we are, or in the environment we're in, or in the financial, security, stability of our lives, we immediately start rationalizing that we can't say what needs to be said we can't do what needs to be done. We can't make waves, we can't take risks. And everybody suffers. The culture suffers. And yet,

Margarita Gurri:

I think there are some bosses and some situations, especially people who don't have so much power or education, where if they do say boo, they're gone, and then their children starve. So I think one of the inbetween steps is if you can't speak to As a leader, who isn't leading in the Kimi way, or the rabbi way, maybe way or so maybe there's someone else that they can talk to maybe they're their partner, their life partner, or maybe the Secretary or someone who has sway with them. Sometimes it's the the custodian who and that organization does have the ear of this leader that you could go to, and express your concern, either they could advise you on how to handle it, or they could whisper in the ear of oh, great and scary one, right.

Yonason Goldson:

That's one of the reasons why their suggestion boxes, but they only work if somebody is reading the suggestions.

Margarita Gurri:

Yeah, and it is

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski:

the open mind with an open mind.

Margarita Gurri:

So the suggestion boxes I've seen they have a computer that anyone could type on, but there's a camera on it. Oh, my God. So so you can't you can't check the IP. You can't check. You know, where it got sent from, but you can see them. So I think, Oh, how do we So here's, here's one of the questions. How do we solicit information that we as leaders need that will inform us on what we can do even better or better if we're not doing them well at all? And how do we how do we move forward? So let's, I'm gonna ask you to address that question to me, but let's do the word of the day. All right. So good Rabbi, You have a an interesting word. I'm going to put this in the chat.

Yonason Goldson:

And the word of the day comes to us from Sarah zit Brzezinski, the crackerjack copywriter, copywriter, and the word is Zuma Zappa.

Margarita Gurri:

I copied the wrong thing.

Yonason Goldson:

You got me the wrong thing. Oh, no, zoob, GM,

Margarita Gurri:

Zuma, Zuma, it looks like Zuma.

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski:

Okay, I need you

Yonason Goldson:

to know that over the years, so I'm vouch for the pronunciation perfectly. But let's call the Zuma the use of a word to modify or govern two or more words, usually in such a manner, that it applies to each in a different sense. So for instance, she opened the door and her heart to the homeless boy. inches. So the opening of a door and the opening of the heart are very different things, but the word open applies to them equally, but in different ways, or what Mark Twain wrote in Tom Sawyer, they covered themselves with dust and glory.

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski:

Oh, they're beautiful. I love that praise was so wonderful.

Yonason Goldson:

So why is this relevant to our conversation? Because ethical behavior serves us as far as others in very different ways. And let me pose a question to you, we may have talked about this before. But if you have $1,000, to give to charity, would it be better to give $1,000 to one cause, or $1 to 1000 causes. And intuitively, most of us would say, better to give $1,000 to one cause, because that's going to make a bigger difference. And there there are two reasons not to follow that line of thought. The first is that if I give $1,000, I'm done, I'm finished. And I only did one act of giving. If I give $1 1000 times, I've done 1000 acts of giving. That means that I have had 1000 opportunities to transform myself because charity is not just for the receiver. It's also for the giver. And what's more, if I give 1000 times, then the next person who comes in ask for$1, I'm likely to give to him. Because I've developed the habit of giving and because it's only$1. But there's a more deeper idea that and we talked about this earlier the the interplay between the process and the outcome. We as a society, we've gotten so outcome focused, that we've lost sight of the value of the process. Yeah. And that if I think that the world needs me to make it better. That can make me very arrogant. can also make me feel despairing. What can I do? How am I supposed to change. Whereas if I recognize the process of committing myself to making the world better is a process that changes me. And by changing myself, that is how I contribute to making the world a better place. My whole mindset is different. I become a giver, I become a doer, and an A changer and a mover and a shaker. Not because I'm in it for my ego, and the difference I'm going to make to the world, because that's what it means to be a human being. And so keep these two ideas, balanced in our minds, that the actions that we do affect others, and affect us in different ways. But in ways that are ultimately essential to ourselves and of the world we live in.

Margarita Gurri:

Wow,

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski:

I love that

Margarita Gurri:

way, deep Rabbi, I like that.

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski:

I'm probably going to explain that to somebody at the grocery store where I shop, there is always they choose really causes on a regular basis, it kind of rotates. And as you're checking out, they always want to know, would you like to donate$1 $3 $5 to, you know, whatever worthy cause there is. And I always do. And I tend to go to the same checkout clerk, which I've just and I just say goodbye to her earlier today saying I'm moving to Indiana, and she one day said, Why do you always give? And I said, Well, actually, I have a couple of reasons. One, I know what it's like to be hungry. to, if I can afford to buy potato chips, beer and ice cream sandwiches, I think I can afford a little something to help somebody else have a decent meal. said Now, that's not the that's not a highfalutin, you know, raise your hands and glory call is it. But it makes me feel good. Because somebody helped a charity that helped me once. And they probably didn't give but a little bit when they could. So I try to say thank you to that person, or those people. I said, so I'm afraid there's nothing, you know, highfalutin or mighty about this, it's just it's just a couple of bucks. And, and you can

Yonason Goldson:

it's not just charity, there is extend that idea to every act that benefits another person. Every time you smile, every time you say good morning, let me hold the door. There's me help. A little old lady or the little man with the groceries. Anything we can do when you see opportunities, just to validate the existence of another human being. And it takes so little effort. And so little time. Anything? Well, it's not a big deal. True by itself. It's not a big deal. But it's like compound interest. You keep adding to it and adding to it and adding to it. And eventually, you have stratospheric growth. All those little grains of sand, create an entire beach, all those little drops of water create an entire ocean. And that's how we make a difference.

Margarita Gurri:

Isn't that the truth? We'll have to call it $1 ethics. What? I do think there's little things matter. And that's a beautiful story. I can't wait to hear what your clerk says. When you talk to her again. You have to follow up with us and let us know. She

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski:

I'm seeing here this afternoon. She said you can't just leave and I said Well, I'm leaving this afternoon. She said, Aren't you coming back? Aren't you going to have to clean out the house or something? And yeah, probably as it but I'm stopping by this afternoon. She said I want you to talk to somebody and I've got my grandson this afternoon is picking me up from work. So I promised her I would be there.

Margarita Gurri:

I think that's nice. Well, we're especially honored that you took time to meet with us today. Given that it's a big day for you with movie.

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski:

You know No, i Are you kidding i would i would be delighted at any point in time you folks have such important conversations and

Margarita Gurri:

help of you were delighted and honored spirit.

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski:

Thank you, I would love. Like I tell people all the time, I said, have you seen he got it, you've got to go see it. There is one thing that I would like to ask both of you to think about either with another guest or with the two of you. And that is how do we what else can we do at a concrete level? Other than do our level best to be examples to lead by example? How can we help other people see the value of having these kinds of conversations? How do we invite them into into the conversation? Below little more active in the conversation?

Margarita Gurri:

That's a good question. And that would take forever to answer.

Yonason Goldson:

One thought I heard I heard a Rabbi say once that if fellas chewing on a stick of spearmint gum, peppermint gum, and say Here try this this Cabernet. takes a sip of Cabernet. They sour? You know what? Take the peppermint gum out of your mouth. Have a cracker. Clear your palate. Now, let's try this again. We really live in a culture where our minds are just overwhelmed with with with junk food. Entertainment is so cheap and so easy and so immediately gratifying. And there's so many ways we're getting dopamine hits. And, you know, it's an acquired pleasure. It's an acquired taste. Well, why should I bother acquiring it? I think I could get this one instantly with no effort at all. Because once you learn to acquire the taste, you realize it is so much more delicious than that gummy we're jumping. In how to add that we just pushes the question down the road a little bit? How do we contribute to developing a culture of discipline that encourages people to look for more to ask for more to expect more from themselves? Well, I

Margarita Gurri:

think Kimi demonstrated it with the checkout clerk. If you make yourself available over a period of time, where people know you trust you and maybe even like you, they eventually will ask a question. Why do you give? That was a question she had not asked all those

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski:

years. Right? I hadn't thought about that.

Margarita Gurri:

We made yourself available. And I think that I think every it's back to the $1 and one second ethics, every second that we're focused on listening to someone, or being present in the moment, I think speaks to what both of you have been talking about is another second game. For anyone's inclination to pay attention to ask to learn to participate in a connected human exchange. It doesn't always have to be words. One of my neighbors is very autistic does not speak very often. We have very long conversations very long. I'll go up and I'll say hi, you know, say hi, and they'll start doing something weird. You'll do it. We're back and, and pretty soon, he's across the street. So pretty soon we're doing this from across the street, and there's no mirror. We're having very long conversation. And the issue is, where's our sense of joy and playfulness? The idea of discipline that the rabbi talks about everyone thinks of discipline as something you have to look constipated to have. Right? I think discipline can be a joyful discipline. The discipline of finding joy in every moment of sharing joy of acknowledging people with a straight face and a smile. Just even that regularly makes such a big difference in terms of being validated. And in the rabbi was talking about validation. And key me I think your presence in an event lets people know you're going to listen, you're going to understand and you also won't let people get beat up. I think when people get the idea that they're safe with us is we're going to offer a reasonable foundation for expectation of being treated well. And we're questions are exciting. Even if it's not well asked, we can always answer the question the way it might have been asked, had it been less abrasive or less whatever? I think so back to one second and $1 ethics is where I would start with your question Genie. I like that, what everyone can do it a concrete level,

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski:

there is something very comforting about saying, Well, you could just do this one thing. And I tell people that the not doing of it. It's a habit. So if you want to replace that habit, with one thing that would make a positive difference, I'll just give you one thing, I won't give you a laundry list of 10 ways that you can improve the world or things like that, I don't believe in trying to make people into list ticker offers or you know, asking people to change 10 Habits all at once. And I think that speaks also to what you had said about the the outcome versus the process. Now, okay, I got, I checked off these 10 things. Tomorrow, I'm still gonna be the person who had to check off the 10 things. And

Margarita Gurri:

but that's your job, because you're the checker offer of processes and thoughts and habits and mindsets. Because you're a consultant that is your job. So may you always have a you know, that checker, box checker mentality

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski:

as long as I also. Thank you. Remember the quality and the nature in the basis for a soundly delivered rebuke? That is a validation of their potential.

Yonason Goldson:

Wonderful. Well, thank you, Kimmy, for joining us again, and we'll look forward to next time as well. Dr. Do you have a last word for us?

Margarita Gurri:

I do other than the thank you both again, for a very interesting conversation and useful. I'm going to set my final words V from curly the cowboy from city slickers said the secret of life is one thing. So my question is, what is your one thing that you can do? Whether it's one second $1 One bit of effort? What one thing can you do to be a better Asker and a better ASCII for the greater good in the long run for the world?

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski:

Absolutely place

Yonason Goldson:

to start.

Margarita Gurri:

All I have to say, Well, everyone, we will see you next Tuesday on the rabbi in the shrink at 1230. If you need us podcast at the rabbi in the shrink, and our website is oh no the rabbi in the shrink how consistent. We will see you then and teeny. Good luck with your move and we want to hear what happened with the checker. That stuck out lady and we want to hear about your move later. And please do join us again as soon as you can.

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski:

Absolutely. Thank you so much. I always enjoy it.