The Rabbi and The Shrink

#46: Sam Ardery - Become Positively Conflicted

January 20, 2022 Rabbi Yonason Goldson and Dr. Margarita Gurri, CSP Episode 46
The Rabbi and The Shrink
#46: Sam Ardery - Become Positively Conflicted
Show Notes Transcript

#46 Sam Ardery -- Become positively conflicted


Why is the next thing you’re going to say probably a mistake?

Why is conflict a mixed blessing?

Why do you double-down when you know you’re wrong?


These and other critical challenges to conflict resolution will be elucidated when mediation guru Sam Ardery joins The Rabbi and the Shrink.


https://www.linkedin.com/in/sam-ardery-b78a8022/


https://www.samardery.com/


1:30 Using personal experience to teach without coming off as a martyr or a saint

We trust our own common sense when we need objective perspective


4:30 Conflict is a mixed blessing

Problems are mostly fear-based

Balancing passion against professionalism


9:30 We turn to anger because it’s easier than self-reflection

“Why don’t you change so I’ll feel better?”

We fade in and out of self-awareness

Well-given rebuke can reach us and make us recalibrate


13:00 “Would you rather be right or would you rather be married?”

What are the secrets of successful negotiation?  

Ask yourself these questions:

  1.  What do you want?
  2. What are my biggest fears and concerns?
  3. What tradeoffs are you willing to make?

Radical listening is key

Ethics is all about relationships:  empathy, trust, respect


18:00 Why do we double down when we know we’re wrong?

How do we get past our egos?

Apologies with excuses don’t work

“If you love me, you’ll understand” -- NOT


20:30 Obstacles to resolution and compromise

People who know they have G-d on their side

The longer the problem has gone on

The deeper the emotional investment

Politics today is the new religion

The benefit of constructive disagreement


28:00 Impossible alliances and friendships are actually possible

The value of trusted advisors

Entering conflict ask:

Is it worth it?

Is it safe?

The danger of disproportionate response


34:00 The person who saved Sam’s life

We’re not binary -- we’re complicated

“I may not be much, but I’m all I think about”

We’re all special, and we all suffer

Don’t tell people what they need to understand, what they have to understand, or what they should understand

Understanding is a gift, acceptance is a choice


40:00 We have tremendous influence when we can take our own experience and universalize it to enlighten others


42:00 The word of the day:  malevolent

wishing evil or harm to another or others; showing ill will; ill-disposed; malicious:

His failures made him malevolent toward those who were successful.

evil; harmful; injurious:

Recognizing the difference between intended and unintended pain is the key to gauging an ethical response


45:00 conflict is a full-bodied experience

“If in times of tension, the next thing you say will make you feel better, it’s probably wrong

Beware of Pyrrhic victories



Margarita Gurri:

Welcome to the Rabbi and the Shrink. This is Dr Margarita Gurri, the shrink. And here's everyone's favorite Rabbi

Yonason Goldson:

Yonason Goldson

Margarita Gurri:

And the rabbi and I have a guest, that is amazing. He knows how to think about conflict in a way that will add value to anything you do. I'm asking the rabbi to introduce him because the rabbi has read this book, Rabbi

Yonason Goldson:

Well, I was introduced to Sam Ardery, by him mutual friend online. And he reached out to me, and he offered to send me a copy of his book. And I tried to very politely declined. Because I get offered books from time to time, and I'm in a very finicky reader. And I really didn't want to have him go to the expensive sending it to me and not read it, or even worse, read it and not like it. But he very gently persisted. And I said, Okay, go ahead and send it. And, and I and I opened it up, I started to read the first few pages, and then I got hooked. I was very impressed. And the book is positively conflicted. I love the title, because I think it describes so many of us in so many different levels. And of course, Sam, you're going to tell us more about it. But what really struck me was how you are so vulnerable, in describing your own conflicts, your own struggles. And it's so easy when doing that, either to come off as a martyr, or come off as a hero. And you just come off as a human being. Say, I'm welcome. And please tell us a little bit about you and your mission.

Sam Ardery:

Well, thank you for having me, it's an honor to be here. And I, I sent the book to other people that didn't really want it as well. And some seemed glad to have it some I never heard from so I want you to know, it's a mixed response. I was a trial lawyer for about 12 years. And then I learned they were going to start doing this thing called mediation where I practice. And I went to mediation training, not because I had any interest in being a mediator, but I wanted to know what they were going to do to me. Because it was all about me. And ironically, that dovetailed with the same time that I stopped drinking, which has been about almost 27 years ago. Wow. And so that the mediation started at the same time, I stopped drinking. And so I learned some new things. So I ended up doing one mediation, I've done four or 5000 mediations. Wow. And what I found is the things that allowed me to stop drinking and the harm I caused and deal with some of those things. Were not unique to people that had addiction issues. The uniqueness was simply that people who have addiction problems, or alcohol problems, had a particular least specific way of responding to life being too tough on life's terms, at least that was true for me. And I found that the people coming in to see me about about mediations and about conflicts in their lives. 100% of them had something happened that they didn't expect to have happen to them. And we all kind of trust deeply in our own common sense. And so the idea that they couldn't just resolve it with the other person, or that they would need a lawyer or even worse, that they'd have to pay money or that someone would tell them, we can't promise you an outcome, or all things that that were a slow learning process. For me personally, I mean, being a trial lawyer, in some ways, I don't want to say it's easy, because it's not as difficult as our most jobs. But it's a lot about advocacy, and telling other people what I think and not much about about listening or having compassion or being aware of where other people may be. So that's kind of, uh, probably more than you wanted, but about as quick as I can do in terms of of what I do and how I do it. And I've, I've been just really fortunate I happen to be the right place at the right time to have an opportunity to do this. So I'm grateful to talk about it here. And I'm grateful for you too for having

Margarita Gurri:

Well, we're delighted that you joined us. I'm interested in your ID idea. You seem to understand that conflict is a mixed blessing. And you talk about conflict and fear in a delicious way. Would you please tell us about that.

Unknown:

And again, I even with with addiction issues or conflict issues or what I'm teaching, what I what I can do is I can share my experience and some people find it applies to them and some that it doesn't. But I find most things tend to be fear based. I mean even when I teach negotiation to law students I tell them that the the fundamental part of it is people are afraid of not getting what they want or losing what they have. I mean, that's the most fundamental piece of the fear on why we negotiate, otherwise, I'll give it to you, or I'll walk away because I don't want it. And so that's kind of what I found, even as a trial lawyer I was I was motivated hugely by fear. I mean, how I would look whether my client would win all those things that go along with it. And and once I recognize that, because my, my, I don't want to tell people, I'm afraid, I might tell you, I'm concerned, I'm stressed. I'm worried, I'm feeling a lot of tension. But I want to tell you, I'm afraid because it makes me feel too vulnerable. So I don't ask people that right away. But my go to when I'm afraid is to be either angry or sad. I'm not claiming that universal, I'm not a psychologist, that's my, that's that's tends to be what I do. And that tends to be what I observe and other people in the place it helps me is, I trust my common sense just as much as those people that are coming in to see me. And they're not necessarily aligning, but when I can remember when they're yelling at me, or when they're crying, or when they're doing a little bit of both. It lets me have some compassion for them, rather than get upset with them, because they're not meeting my agenda either as to time or outcome. But it took a lot of practice. And even with a lot of practice, I still screw it up. I mean, I can tell you an example. I was doing a mediation one time. And there was a young woman who was involved in it. She was a minor at the time this thing had happened. And she was majority age, and we were mediated. And she was there with her mother and her father and two lawyers. And as we talked about the case all day long. What I realized that everybody was talking to her. And so I stopped for a second I said, I said her name. And I said, I've been hearing from everybody, but you would you like to tell me what's going on for you with this situation? What we're doing today. And before she could answer, her lawyer leaned forward and pointed his finger at me said I don't care what she says, I'm her lawyer, you talk to me, Wow, without missing a beat and doing everything the opposite of what I would tell everybody else to do. I smacked my hand on the table, I leaned back at him. And I told him, don't you ever come into my office and tell me you don't Claire care what your client thinks. And then in a moment of clarity, I said, You know what, I apologize for my response, I'm going to go back to my office. And you all can decide whether you wish to continue with me or in this mediation, whatever else you want to do. And I went back to my office, the lawyer that had not pointed his finger and yelled at me was a woman I've known a long time a really great lawyer. And about 20 minutes later, she comes into my office, and she kind of Pat's me on the shoulder. And she said, Sam, I knew we had an anger management problem in the other room, I just didn't realize it was you. And and I find that those times when I complete them, when I gave them their money back, they didn't meet with me, they got things resolved in another way in spite of me, not because of me. But I find those moments when I'm aware of how instinctively because I was afraid I had three daughters about this, I can give you all kinds of reasons that aren't excuses, because there was no excuse for me behaving in a way that I would say was unprofessional. It may be that that lawyer needed to hear that, or maybe not. But there were better ways for me to do that.

Margarita Gurri:

I can give you another reason. As a psychologist, since you're very empathic and and very aware of other people's sometimes the person who is exploding is the one speaking for the one who can't speak. So it's called the interject is kind of like looks like you need a V eight. You know those commercials. Right? So perhaps, sir, you were speaking for the silenced client and your explosion, maybe resolve some of the conflict? Because you took it on for her and voiced it. So? Yeah, I think that's the process.

Yonason Goldson:

Yeah. Well, and when we when you when, when your anger is on behalf of someone else. I think it's entirely excusable. Yeah, even if in a professional setting, maybe it's not the ideal response, or perhaps maybe it is, it can be.

Unknown:

Well, it was my response. I never saw that. The one lawyer yelled at me and I yelled at him. We didn't see we have not seen each other since and it's been a long time. The other Lord, I've worked with a lot, but it was I appreciate your explanations of it, because I don't feel quite as bad. It sure felt pretty darn bad at the time. Well, you

Margarita Gurri:

were speaking not only on her behalf, but I mean, she had been so silenced. And maybe you changed her sense of herself a little bit so that she could speak up more. I think that's really important. So back to the temper. I think your defaults of anger and sadness are pretty universal, but the number one default is anger. And a lot of times rather than feel sadness, or shame or frustration or loss. We go straight to anger because it's easier. And it's one of the fight flight Freeze with fried kind of instinctive responses, it kind of keeps us from having to be introspective, which I know you're a big fan of.

Unknown:

Yeah, yeah, it's what I want to think about with with conflict and negotiation that we sometimes forget is that it's a full body experience, we don't separate our brains from our bodies, or our bodies from our brains. And sometimes, I'm not even aware that there's a conflict until after my body feels it. And, and so one of the things in this, that that I've, I think about, and I often would would finish with this is, when I feel that it's a good time to pause, to assess, and to choose what my response is going to be. But when I've got that, that stuff all going on, that is simply not my instinct, and the safer the environment. Like with my wife, for instance, we were sitting talking one morning, over a cup of coffee, which by the way, is the way we usually start our day. And I'd asked her about a decision we've made at the office, an employment decision. And I said, What do you think? Because she's got a lot of wisdom, she often thinks differently about things than I did. And she started to tell me, I was getting angrier and angrier. I don't mean slap the table, and I was clearly getting irritated and fidgeting. And she said, I don't I don't get this. If you ask me my opinion, all I'm doing is giving you my opinion. And it's clear, you're really mad. And I And in that moment, the bulb went off again, I thought, well, it never occurred to me, you might think differently about this than me. I thought I was asking for her opinion. And all I was doing was making a comment and expecting her to affirm it. And she was simply responding to exactly the question I'd ask in a very honest way.

Margarita Gurri:

annoying when people do what we asked them to do in it.

Unknown:

Yeah, I love the phrase, why don't why don't you changed, so I'll feel better.

Yonason Goldson:

But yes, it's very interesting to hear you describe that, you know, something that we all, I think suffer from is that we have we we fade in and out of self awareness. And we don't recognize when our own biases, our own shortcomings, our own insecurities are influencing our responses or reactions. And if someone can point that out to us in the right way, then we can immediately recalibrate. But when someone pointed out the wrong way, then things start to escalate. You you you have in your book, a story that I wish I would have read 30 years earlier that you were having a apparently heated argument with your wife. And and she had a very interesting question that she asked you, you share that with us.

Unknown:

Sure. My wife gave me permission to tell all these stories. And to put them in the book, I did not do it ad hoc and then ask for forgiveness later. We were talking in the middle of our living room, and it was about this, maybe a little before this, it was fall, I remember the colors of the leaves. And we're both standing there. And I remember which direction we were both pointing. And we're disagreeing. I can't remember what it was about. But it was really important to me. And finally, I noticed she wasn't saying anything. And and I just looked at and I and I stopped for just a second because I tend to just blink one word on to the next. And she looked at me and she put her hands on her hips. And she said, Sam, would you rather be right? Would you rather be married?

Margarita Gurri:

I love your wife. Yeah.

Unknown:

Most people do me too. But and then she left the room before I could answer. And it was it was so clear. I'm doing an assessment. And I do this sometimes with with students and other people. It's let's go through and talk about our priorities. My priority absolutely was to be married over being right in that moment. But that was no speaking of nowhere on the radar. It was nowhere in the building. That that the marriage was more important than being right in that moment because I was so energized and and if I can remember that when I'm mediating with people and they're responding to me that way you can kind of like get some perspective here, or stop yelling at me or don't call me names, then it helps because I think Kali, they're just no different. They're no different from me. They just are no different from me. And those those. It's like, I've got a friend who's known my wife, Patti for 40 years as well. He said, you know, Sam, I read the book. And I thought that all royalty should go to her but that he said if that's the case, she should have been getting royalties from us for the last 40 years. Which is true.

Margarita Gurri:

Well, a good partner. Certainly priceless. Oh,

Unknown:

no doubt, no doubt. That's

Margarita Gurri:

why we tell her hi for us and that we will I will. So I have a question. By now you're an expert in negotiation. So many people fail to negotiate in a thoughtful and useful way. Give us the secrets Want to truly negotiate something whether it's with a loved one, or in business or wherever? What do you suggest we do?

Unknown:

I think there there are three questions to ask. And it's easy to think about them, but it's harder to put them on paper and come up with them. And actually, Atul Gawande talked about these three questions pretty clearly in his book being mortal when he was thinking about talking to patients who had some difficult medical decisions to make. The first is what do you want? And it's easy to say them all I want the car, but there are more details to that than I want the car or I want my marriage to work. So that's the first one. Once you've got that down, the second question is one of my biggest fears and concerns. And as we talked about before, it's difficult to tell people we're really afraid of so just assume this is just for you. What are your biggest fears and concerns? What? What are you afraid of not getting? What are you afraid of getting? What is it what you're afraid of losing? Because that helps frame it. And the final one is, what trade offs are you willing to make? Because in a negotiation, there are almost always going to be trade offs. Unless you say I want this, the other person says yes. So if you do those three things, whether it's the car, and an example might be people in a relationship, I mean, setting aside from, you know, buying cars and things really not that buying cars isn't important, but I would argue relationships are more important. Um, it might be that one person is deeply into getting outside help for relationship. And another person that's so threatening, getting outside help is the last thing they want to do. So how people one decide that on their own and then if you're in a relationship with somebody, he really hearing how the other person answers those same questions differently. Without trying to back to the agenda, piece of it, trying to argue them out of those, and listening or what I call radical listening, listening, while putting my agenda aside. And assuming that there may be a point of view that's different, better, more worthwhile than my own. So those, those are the three things that I suggest to people, there's other things terms of evaluated, but those are, I find them incredibly helpful.

Yonason Goldson:

Great, thank you. To have that kind of simple, and really practical structure, as a reminder, as a guide, because, you know, really, all of life, all success of happiness, comes from relationships. And in our conversations here in this in this podcast, you know, ethics is all about relationships, the empathy, the trust, the respect. And we all want that. And on some level, we all know that. But when we get caught up in the moment, as you said, it just it leaves the room. And so we have to be able to remind ourselves, we have to be able to remind each other. You know, one of the things that I've discovered is that when I am involved in a really heated, fortunately, this hasn't happened in a while. But I think we've all had the kind of experience I'm involved in a heated disagreement. And it's escalating and tempers are rising. And it suddenly dawns on me that I'm wrong. And my immediate reaction is double down. start arguing harder. Because now it's not only about being right, it's about admitting that I've caused all this ruckus. When I shouldn't have in the first place. Getting our egos out of the way, is going to solve so many of our problems, isn't it? It

Unknown:

is and it's so difficult to do. And it comes in the front door and the side door in the back door. It's just it's just so present, which is why I think that paying attention to the to the physical piece of it is so important. And in even in in apologies, I mean, an apology without excuse or explanation has value. But the minute I start explaining it, it's lost all value. Because it makes it all about me again. It's I find it much more helpful for me to apologize and ask for forgiveness without requiring it. And that's that's another piece in conflict, particularly in relationships, personal and professional. If I've done something wrong, and let's say, Rabbi, and that time, you realize that you just owned it right away. i Well, the person may forgive you, and they may not they may forgive you in a week or a month or a year and went back to the relationship piece. What I've realized is when I've deeply hurt somebody, they get to decide when or if they forgive me. There is part of me in terms of my ego and my entitlement that thinks that I that I get to decide how long it takes for you to forgive me or that was 10 years ago. You should be over that by now or that was 10 minutes ago you should be over that. By now, and when I can remove that entitlement, I can be back to engaging genuinely with somebody rather than engaging conditionally on how they respond.

Margarita Gurri:

I think that's the key, understanding that we're two different people. Unfortunately, I think many people have some magic fairy dust. They think that if you love me, you'll understand. That's one of my favorites. Because when, when people understand that they don't understand it begin to realize that the fairy dust was just glitter that got in your eye and scratched your cornea, you know? And I think it's, it's fascinating. What are the signs that you are going to have a very difficult negotiation? Like before you even talk to them? When you see somebody? What are the clues you have?

Unknown:

Well, the hardest ones are when both sides are sure that they have got on their size. Which happens, I mean, you've got people that have differences, and they've got deep religious beliefs of whatever kind. And there, there's, there's no way I can, I can talk them out of their, their righteousness in their faith, whatever that might be in so that that's the first one. Almost all the rest. Most negotiations are hard, because by the time people get to me, there's so many steps that have happened to build resentment, and completely cut out communication. I mean, it starts with, oh, I disagree with you, oh, I really disagree with you. Oh, we disagree so much that you blocked off the entrance to my property, and you won't move it and then you hire the lawyer. And then it takes too much time. And everybody's got their sense of fairness and justice so that they all kind of get there. So I would say any any religious belief that God has on your side is the first clue. The second one is the longer it has lasted. And the more personal the dispute. And what I do my best to keep in mind is all disputes are personal. I mean, whether it's, you know, the breakup of a business, or a CEO getting let go, or the boundary line that I talked about, or family members that have been attending holiday gatherings for years, and mom and dad die, and they they disagree on who who took care of mom and whether she should have been paid for that. Those because they touched so deeply into into our principles. And I was talking with what comes up frequently. This is if you'd like me to be quiet, do something else, because I'm just rambling now, but I like your ramble go? Well, one of the things that comes up frequently is people will say it's not about the money, it's about the principle. And before my hair was all white, which has been a while now, I used to think Baloney, it's always about the money. And what I have come to believe is when they say that, they believe it, they mean it, and they're deeply vested in it. So the route because I'm usually doing litigated disputes or disputes, if they don't get done, they're going to be litigated. And so I will ask, I say, well, because there's risk in this process, you both got lawyers, your own lawyers told you there's at least a 1% chance you're going to lose could be a 20% chance. But when you got a jury or a judge third parties deciding there's no guarantee that they see it your way. So I will ask, let's say that 1% happens. I know you don't think it will. But let's say it does, are your principles going to change. Nobody has ever told me yes. Nobody has ever said my principles are so malleable, that I'm happy to hand them over to somebody else. If I lose, I'm going to give the other side a hug and tell him golly, my principles have been wrong, or nobody's ever told me. They've all said, No, my principles won't change. So my next question is, if you win, as you think you will, do you think the other side's principles are going to change? And usually the first response is no, because they don't have any principles. But after that, they'll usually acknowledge No, they probably won't. So then we can have the conversation that not that your principles aren't important, and not that they don't allow you to put your head on the pillow at night and sleep. But we're in a process that doesn't prove principles, it gives you legal closure, it'll decide who owes or doesn't owe money, because your principles are too important for you to hand them over to anybody else, including me. And it gives them a little crack of freedom if they wish it wish to have it to decide, okay, I can decide this case and not feel like I'm compromising the core of my character to decide this. And, and that's it. I guess I went there because the harder the disputes, the more tragic the losses, the bigger the consequences are, the more principled people will feel about it, and we have to address it some way and not go around the bar to get there.

Yonason Goldson:

I love that articulation Sam because not only is it extremely practical, but it also reflects everything that's going on in our society today. Is you know, it's been said that politics today is the new religion. And when people use that when people have got on their side, there's no room for compromise. And so we've got a system that is breaking down before our eyes, because I'm right and I know I'm right and God knows I'm right. And therefore, why should I compromise? I can't compromise, because that's compromising my values and my principles, rather than saying, we have to live in a society together, and we have to get along with each other, and we have to make it work. And that means we have to find some way of bridging the distance. And the willingness to entertain the possibility that someone else has a legitimate point of view, even if it's not mine, requires a measure of maturity, that is becoming more and more aware. And again, it goes by I like the title of your book so much positively conflicted. I, if you're familiar with the works of Steven Carter, you know, he he, he talks about this term, constructive disagreement, that when we are willing to hear people will you refer to as radical listening, which is, I love that phrase. To hear the other side. Not only do we understand the other person, but understanding ourselves better. There's a story in In Jewish tradition, one of the great great rabbis, his name is Rabbi Yohanan. And he had a main disciple, and they argued about everything. And then his disciple died. And he was crestfallen, he went into a deep depression. And the sages that we have to do something for a yoga we have to help him so they found another very distinguished scholar and put him in a yoga class. And everything Rabbi Yohanan said, this other Rabbi brought 24 proofs that he was right. Oh, it didn't take long before he said, Get out of here. He said, I know I'm right. But my my former disciple, he would post 24 questions and challenges to everything I said. And by working through those objections, we came to a deeper understanding of the truth. Where is the integrity, the confidence to know I can be right? And I'm not afraid of people who are going to challenge me? Because then we can we can discover new insights. And every once in a while, who knows? Maybe I am wrong, wouldn't I rather discover I'm wrong, that persistent being wrong.

Unknown:

And I think among the challenges are, there's a guy named Cal Dini at Arizona State, he talks about influence. So you both may have read him. But one of the things he talks about is his commitment, one way to influence people, because we don't like to go back against our public commitments. And we've got so many things on social media, it's not just our community, and it's just not just the three of you, the three of us that are saying things, once I've said it, it becomes like you were talking about in your in your argument earlier rabbi, well, you just double down, because it's embarrassing, and it makes me vulnerable. And, and that, that becomes too scary. So unless someone in a leadership capacity can do that, then it's, it's difficult to see where we go, it'll happen at some point, or we'll have a power to power kind of circumstance, whether it's personal or political, or where we're one side of the other will break and then we'll see how everybody recovers from that. But it is so painful to watch, just so painful to watch

Margarita Gurri:

it is we had a beautiful example of the radical listening and radical compassion with Darrell Davis and the KKK. And how he ended up befriending some of the higher ups in the KKK. And eventually, because of the Friendship and Mutual listening, understanding, they were able to come to an agreement, and even the KKK would, many of them resigned from it. And I think that that was a brilliant example. So my thoughts go to you now sir. Mary, who is one of our frequent fliers, and she is a loyal listener, asked the question, I think is very thoughtful. Do you have someone sir, that helps you debrief other than your beautiful wife because I know she's there. After intense negotiations.

Unknown:

I've got more than one person one, I've got it. I've got a partner, who and we've been partners for over 30 years who actually started mediating before me, Joe Connor. And certainly before the pandemic less so once the pandemic started, we'd both be mediating and we'd go into each other's offices and say, What's, here's what's going on? I'm not responding very well to this. I don't think I'm being very helpful. Do you have any ideas? And afterwards, in fact, it just happened earlier today. When I was walking down the hall, he had a very complicated mediation he was doing on Friday and I asked, how did it get done and and he said, Yes, it did. And we talked about how that happened. And then there seems to come in most disputes at least that we're doing where they kind of hit a tipping point. And you say, Okay, we didn't think there was a way through. But now there is and what, what mediators do is, we help people have the conversation there, they haven't been able to have on their own. It used to be I would love to go home or tell my partners, you know, they said, to just settle the case. And I love saying, Yes, I settled the case. Well, what I've realized, again, as I've gotten older, I don't settle any of these cases. I do help people have conversations and rephrase things and talk to each other. We're carrying messages in a way that they had not been found, they've not been able to find a way to do but here's this here, the statistics 98% of all lawsuits Settle, not not 50 98%. And if that's true, there are plenty of meteors out there that aren't me. It's not because I speak of the magic fairy dust we talked about earlier. Dr. It's not, it's not that I've got this magic fairy dust to sprinkle. But we can engage and we can be patient, and we can have some perseverance. And we can let people behave badly and not act like we're the school principal. But again, I don't do well, the short answer is I tell my students that so they're careful about their questions. But I've got I've got not only do I have my wife, Fatty, I've got my friend Joe Connor. And I've got I continue with, with my, my recovery from from, from alcoholism, I continue to talk to people, I don't share confidential details of anything, but but there are still people in my life that are continuing to practice, not drinking, and all that comes along with that.

Margarita Gurri:

That's courageous that you share that. And I'm sure you inspire many people to rethink some of their choices, whether it's drinking, or the use of anger. And anger is an altered state of awareness. Perhaps it's chemical, absolutely chemical. And some people live in that state because they find it to be the most energizing and safe. And they're ready to pounce at any moment, part to be married to someone like that or work with someone like that. But they seem to find a way to continue it. And I just always know they're scared.

Unknown:

Well, I do. And there are times I mean, one of my editors were reading my book, they said, you need a chapter on standing up for yourself. You talk about all these things, but sometimes, which is why it's the last chapter in the book. But standing up for yourself can be saying now that this is a conflict I'm not getting engaged in this is too dangerous for me. And radically listening is not even safe. So I think the first question in any conflict is one, is it worth it? And two, is it safe? And those are really important questions. And sometimes if you're wavering on whether it's safe or not, you need to ask somebody else. I'm not always the best arbiter when I'm all stirred up about whether or not it's safe. And it's it's a it's a huge question, particularly the most difficult kinds of conflicts,

Margarita Gurri:

well, what are the warning signs that something's not safe, or someone is not safe?

Unknown:

If I sense beyond just my discomfort with conflict, that I really feel unsafe, and that I'm really, that I'm really wrestling with the fight or flight, or that I'm aware that my response to what they're saying, even in my own sense is disproportionate to what they're saying. Or, more importantly, I realized their response to me is disproportionate or physical space, if people start narrowing physical space, and you don't have a familiar relationship with work culture, some cultures do deal with conflict, nose to nose, other cultures don't. So you want to be aware of your cultural icons, your cultural context, and others tone of voice. If you see if you're talking to somebody, you'll see they'll catch in their throat a little bit, meaning they're probably nervous or scared, it's a time to pay attention. It may be that it's, it may not be safe for them. I mean, I don't mean that we can take care of everybody else all the time. But I want to pay attention to both sides of it. But physical space and disproportionate responses are really important.

Yonason Goldson:

You said something on the way and it really started with Mary's question, the importance of having people that we can talk to objective voices, because we're always going to be somewhat skewed in the way we see our own circumstance. He's going to be looking for way to look at ourselves in the best angle. And so having those people in our lives that are trusted advisors, is a critical element. You talk about someone who influenced you very early on and help you change your whole worldview. person named red. Can you tell us a little bit about him?

Unknown:

Yeah, he was a bigger than life personality. And when I first stopped drinking, somebody just kind of took me over to his house and dropped me off. And he was he was a he was big physically and he was big orally he just he was a big person. And like six foot, two 250 pounds, Big Red Beard, red hair and a big baritone voice. And, and I still remember when I was sitting there and in his house and his wife was there with him and I've got a Kleenex. I'm just kind of sobbing at that point. I've got a wife on the trial. Lawyer, Patti and I have three young daughters. And I'm at this guy's house sobbing and she's wondering why the heck am I even still married to this guy. And he and I remember him saying to me, kid, because he called me kitty. He's about 30 years older than me. He said, If I asked you to put down on paper, what you hope for a year from now, and you don't drink between now, and then you would so underestimate where you will be that I'm not even going to ask you to write it down. Wow. And it was the first moment that I felt a hint of hope. And then as I begin the book with a story about going on a trip with him, and what I that I was terrified to go on. And but but he would, he would say, you know, until you can deal with your own internal conflicts, you can't deal with anything else until you can align those at least recognize where they don't align. There's simply nothing for you to do. Now, we don't have time in a mediation session to do that. But those things are happening all the time that at least dynamically and read was. And the other thing he was helpful to me for he was, he was one of the most insightful people I'd ever met. He also could be one of the angriest people I've ever met. And it was a reminder to me that, that we're not binary, we all we get it all. There. It's not. It's not that I'm all good or all bad. I mean, some days I might be better or worse than others. I've got a friend, I mentioned him in the book, too. He was having a horrible time. And he said, I said, How you doing, Phil? And he said, you know, Sam, I may not be much, but I'm all I think about. And I thought that So describe the human condition for me. I mean, I'm thinking about myself so much that if I can come to some kind of peace with who I am flawed as that may be, then it gives me a chance to reach out and actually have honest relationships with other people, which is what I find the most satisfying.

Margarita Gurri:

That's brilliant. That's brilliant. And I think that we're seeing why you're so successful as a negotiator and earlier as a litigator, because I do not believe any conflict can be mediated or resolved in any way. If we don't know ourselves, or have the courage enough to love ourselves, just the way we are, and know how we impact others, whether we're doing something yummy or something not so yummy. I think that that, that courage to know ourselves is the secret to that mediation so I can see why you're so successful.

Unknown:

I promise you it comes in it goes.

Margarita Gurri:

I hope so. Anything that static isn't real.

Unknown:

That's right. That's me.

Yonason Goldson:

You always are gross. Oh,

Margarita Gurri:

yeah. And life is a messy teacher.

Unknown:

It certainly is it and as I was telling you, doctor, before we started, a friend of mine, that is has said for years, we're all special, and we all suffer. And in keeping those in balance in proportion is, is pretty important. And I have I have, I tend to naturally have greater compassion for somebody that suffers in the same way I do. If you're suffering or your struggle is different from mine, then I have a tendency to discount it or think you just ought to get over it or offer unsolicited advice that nobody's asking for. And it's it's I just remembering that I found to be enormously helpful. I'm not the only one that suffer.

Margarita Gurri:

I like that idea that compassion and knowing that our understanding is going to be limited. If it doesn't come from a personal sense of understanding. I think that that's good to remind ourselves how limited we can be

Unknown:

well, and even understanding when I when I'm talking with people about mediating or negotiating among the things I suggest that they not said Don't say many Nevers, but I do say this, I don't tell people what they need to understand what they have to understand or what they should understand. Because I can't control how somebody else understands or whether they have the capacity to and I even wanted, the way I think about his understanding in some ways is a gift and acceptance is a choice. I may think I understand what you're going through. But if you've gone through a horrific circumstance, and I haven't lived it, and I tell you I understand and at some level I've belittled what you've been through. And if I say I understand just as a place keeper to move the conversation along I've also belittle that so understanding I think is great when we have it I think sometimes we think we have it and we don't just as when somebody may tell us they understand that we don't think they do so I like the distinction between understanding and acceptance

Margarita Gurri:

it's an important distinction really wow wow give us a lot to think about sir.

Unknown:

Well, I I love this stuff because it was truly was a life saving for me. And I get to talk to other people about it. And on my good days. It's not about me and my bad days. It is about me and I've met so many really wonderful people that do their job so well and care for their clients well and And at the same time, there have been, you know, tragedies along the way with with, with family law cases and other things that are that are just deeply tragic with people suffering in ways that maybe we don't understand and responding in ways that we can't understand. So I'm glad there's some stuff to think about. Now we can decide whether or not we want to practice it.

Yonason Goldson:

Yeah, that's the hard step. Theory is wonderful ideas are inspiring, put them into practice is where the rubber hits the road. But you know, you said something, just now the main thing, you know, in the speaking business, what makes a speaker distinct, or differentiated is the word we use, if I can talk about my own experience, because that's something nobody else could talk about. But then if I could talk about my own experience in a way that makes it about the audience makes about the listener. And that's a real gift. And I think you've gone a long way to doing that is taking your experience universalizing it, sharing your experience and not making it about you? if more of us could do more of that. I think there'd be a lot less need for what you do so well, that's great. I don't want to put you out of work.

Unknown:

But that'd be fun. I'm all done. That'd be okay.

Margarita Gurri:

Oh, I'm I'm sorry to say I don't think you'll ever be able to work. I wish it would be just as it would be nice if the rabbi and I would be as well for what we do. It's interesting.

Unknown:

Well, Robert,

Margarita Gurri:

I think it might be time for the word of the day, what you got for us, sir,

Yonason Goldson:

I think you might be right.

Margarita Gurri:

Every now and then I'm right, I'm bound to be.

Yonason Goldson:

This word came to me because I used it this morning and a in a blog post that I wrote, we're recording this on the 10th day of the Hebrew month of Tevas, which is a Jewish day morning. I'm actually fasting today. We have several fastpaced scattered through the year that are connected to the structural destruction of the temple in Jerusalem about 24 centuries ago by the Babylonians and 500 years after that, by the Romans. And today commemorates the beginning of the Babylonian siege that eventually resulted in the destruction of Jerusalem. And it's it's also worth noting that we're a couple of days after the devastating tornadoes that swept through so much of the country. And a friend of mine just mentioned this this morning really got me thinking that it's, you know, if you think about events that happened 2000 years ago, it's easy to disassociate. But when we think about the serious struggles that people go through on a day to day basis, connecting the past with the present, is a powerful device for us to use to contextualize and to empathize. And so the word of the day is malevolent. Which means wishing evil or harm to another or others showing ill will, being ill disposed or malicious. And I think it's a particularly relevant, relevant word because the tornadoes sweeping through parts of the country. It wasn't malevolent it didn't have ill will. It was it was nature. And even for those of us who have a theological approach, Providence is something that we really can't fathom, we can't understand the designs, we can't understand the ultimate justice. It's beyond our capacity. But there are times when ill fortune comes upon us. And we just have to deal with the aftermath. When we think about the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem, that was that was absolutely malevolent. It was pure evil, it was pure vindictiveness against a philosophy and a way of life and an outlook that was antithetical to the selfish self interest of the society. And so when we come in conflict with other people, we often attribute to them malevolent intentions. And what you're enabling us to see better Sam, is that most people are entirely justified in their own minds. And in some cases, they may be truly justified. But if we enter into conflict, willing to give people the benefit of the doubt, willing to presume positive intent, willing to make the effort to listen to their side and try to understand where they're coming from, and we can eliminate that elements of perceived malevolence, That goes a long way to helping us resolve these conflicts in a way where we can we can at least be at peace with the, with the results with the outcomes and create a more harmonious world for ourselves and for others. Wow.

Margarita Gurri:

She was inspired by you, Sam.

Unknown:

And I by him.

Margarita Gurri:

He is very inspiring. Sam, do

Yonason Goldson:

you have a final thought you'd like to leave us with?

Unknown:

Well, I guess going back to what I said, said about, you know, when when you feel this physical conflict is a full body experience, a most of us kind of want to go down the hall and shut the door with it is to be aware of that. And when you notice it, when I talk about, you know, pausing and assessing and responding par when you feel it, there's a great quote, in an Mortalis book called Rules of Civility, that I think just nails and I wish I'd written it, but I did it. But it's a good reminder for all of us in response to that, why don't you change so I'll feel better, which is kind of a natural response to conflict. Here's what a more tat one or more is tell tells character says is, if in times of high emotion, the next thing you're about to say makes you feel better, it's probably the wrong thing to say. And, and I, whether it's my example, in the mediation with a young woman years ago, or with my wife, or with my partners, or with people in politics, as you see all this energy and advocacy and showmanship and performance, if instead they think a little bit more about that and be aware of the physicality of it, and be aware that they need to decide whether they'd rather be right or rather be married, rather be right or help govern the country, then then it opens perhaps a crack of light for them to have some conversations, even if privately and not in front of the campus.

Yonason Goldson:

Very nice. You just made me think of a different word of the day I could have used, which is a Pyrrhic victory. Victory is when you you win the battle and lose the war. And that can happen quite a bit when we fight and we can actually win the argument and destroy a relationship, destroying everybody to enterprise destroy culture. So so thank you for for helping us see the bigger picture. And helping has to have some techniques we can use to actually put these ideas in these principles into practice. And we wish you continued success in in spreading the word that is so vitally important today. So thank you for being with us.

Margarita Gurri:

Absolutely. I ordered your book in Amazon. And I'm going to be reading it on my iPhone this holiday. And if you look here in the chat, I put the the Amazon link to it. It's Sam artery.com ard, er why the book is positively conflicted. And I think that it's a must read, for anyone who wants to have good relationships, and be successful in what they do at work. And at home. I think it really is a must read.

Unknown:

Well, it was a pleasure being here. I can't thank you enough for having me.

Margarita Gurri:

We're just delighted. So I have a final thing to say. As a psychologist, I see that what you're doing is so brilliant. When with negotiations and mediations, I want to remind people two things. One is that anger is a gift. It gives us passion. It helps us take notice, you can't live in the anger for very long. So either other people are noticing us or we are it gives us energy to move off of a status quo. It doesn't mean we should yell and scream or harm people. But it certainly is a gift of energy. And I think if we look at it that way. I think that's going to help the world to get to the place of listening more thoughtfully, and understanding how do we each contribute to this situation? And what am I missing that I don't understand this. And the other thing is related to something you had said, sir, that I tell most of my clients and most of my audiences repeat after me. I'm wonderful. Then they say I'm wonderful. I'm awful. I'm awful and they look at me like I'm crazy. And then I lean in and say no get over it. And I think that's what you demonstrated that we all have some of the positive energy and some of the the yuckiness that we bring to any situation to add clarity and chaos. So we both we have both and the point is to not be so self righteous. I think that when we double down or get on our High horses, it's hard to want to look like we've lost. But any conflict can be a form of winning or losing. It's up to us. And I think the the winner is the one who not only makes the best agreements that move forward relationships and businesses and governments, but the person who seeks to understand even if they can never truly understand. So that's all I had to say. Robert, you have any final thoughts, sir?

Yonason Goldson:

I'm good. I think you said it all, doctor.

Margarita Gurri:

Thank you. Well, everyone, thank you for joining the rabbi in the shrink. You can reach us at podcast at the rabbi and the shrink.com. And we're looking forward to seeing you next time. If you have questions. Remember sam artery.com. He's got answers for you. Thank you all and be well