#47: Gila Manolson - The Power of Personal Dignity

How can you exert power without taking center stage?

How can you use the practical to concretize the abstract?

Are traditional roles actually more empowering for women?

These and other unorthodox questions are addressed when feminist author and speaker Gila Manolson joins The Rabbi and the Shrink.

http://gilamanolson.com/

1:30  A story of personal transformation

A feminist atheist sees gender roles in a new way

A vision of purity introduced a different view of life and intimacy

6:00 Modesty is an expression of self-value and self-worth

Directing our attention toward the internal rather than the external

The astounding personal dignity of a former Miss America

The relationship between man and wife is a paradigm for intimacy with the Creator

Using the practical to concretize the abstract

10:30 The paradox of distance bringing us closer

The case for sexual integrity

Rules are set in place for our benefit

Superficial intimacy can teach us not to trust

Even the truest, most articulate message needs the right messenger

18:00 The more you liberate yourself from external validation, the more secure you become in yourself and your value will be recognized by others

The secret to a successful relationship

The mission to “civilize” men

Arousing the inner will rather than the outer will

Women have more power than they know

25:00 Are traditional roles actually more empowering for women?

Women are less attracted by superficiality than men

Don’t pretend men and women aren’t different

30:00 Why is there a partition in traditional synagogues?

Avoid distraction and focus on our individual relationships with the Almighty

Modesty applies to men as well as women

“The absent sense of self”

I’m not my body, my achievements, or my associations… what is my essence?

37:00 How can women feel responsible for men’s reactions without feeling like second class citizens?

As members of the same society, we are all responsible for one another

Power is the ability to affect change, even without taking center stage

43:00 There is nothing more powerful than putting others in touch with their own souls

Too few people in this world are truly in touch with themselves

What is the contribution that we have the unique ability to make?

Women owe nothing to men (or anyone)

Not needing to be liked gives us the freedom to be our best selves

49:00 How the sixties destroyed boundaries and defeated their own purpose

We don’t need sheep, we need leaders

When it comes to our children (and ourselves), we have to stand up for what’s right

Believe in yourself

The C in ETHICS is courage, which is only possible with confidence

56:30  The word of the day:  saccade

the act of checking a horse quickly with a single strong pull of the reins.

Ophthalmology. the series of small, jerky movements of the eyes when changing focus from one point to another.

Modesty is the filter that protects from the distractions of the world and enables us to rein in our baser impulses

Reclaiming wholesomeness

Transcript

Margarita Gurri: 0:03

Welcome to the Rabbi and the Shrink. This is Dr. Margarita Gurri, the shrink, and everyone's favorite Rabbi

Yonason Goldson: 0:11

Yonason Goldson. And today we are very pleased to have with us all the way from Israel. Gila Manolson she is a deep thinker, a prolific author, a speaker and and I just like to add that Gila when 25 years ago, my wife taught your book, The Magic Touch in her high school class in your high school. And it makes me really well, I think we're all components contemporaries yet. But it really had a transformative effect on her students, in opening up their eyes to understand a way of life in a discipline that had seemed very formal, very foreign and very unnatural to them. So I have some first hand experience with your work and we're delighted to have you join us. So welcome.

Margarita Gurri: 1:09

Welcome. I love your story, that you came from a secular background. And you went to Yale and you had a lot of advocacy in your heart. You went to Europe after you finished college, and then you ended up in Jerusalem and found yourself at a very ultra orthodox wedding. Please tell us about your experience and how that changed you to doing what you're doing now.

Gila Manolson: 1:37

Okay, I can tell you a story before that. Also, that'll give you a little bit more insight into who I am. Thank you. When I first came to Jerusalem, as a secular tourist and jeans in a backpack, of course, I wanted to see the Western Wall The Kotel, so I went down the stairs to the Kotel Plaza. And right away I saw something that really, really dismayed me that there was a partition separating the men from the women at the Kotel. And so I come from a very strong feminist background. And so I said to myself, well, if these religious people want to sex segregate themselves, fine, but I'm going in where I want to go in and I marched right into the men's section. And I made it about halfway to the wall before a guard spotted me and I guess realized that this person in jeans was a female. And it came running after me and he said to me in broken English, you know, no, no, you you not to be here you to be there and pointed towards the women's section and escorted me out. And I was absolutely seeing read about Judaism. I wanted nothing to do with it. I left the Kotel Plaza, wandered around the Old City for a few hours and then something kind of drew me back. I don't know it's something the hand of God, I don't know. But I went back to the Kotel Plaza, I went into the women's side, I didn't feel anything. It's kind of hard to feel something at the Kotel when you're an atheist, you know. And on my way out, a woman tapped me on the shoulder and she said, Excuse me, Are you Jewish? And I said, Yes, why? And she said, Well, you look like a tourist, I thought maybe you might be interested in spending Shabbat with a religious family, or attending some classes on Judaism. And I said, Listen, lady, before we talk about me going any classes on Judaism, why don't you tell me? And I'll clean up my language here a little bit. Okay, what the heck is this partition doing here for? And she said to me? Wouldn't you have a really hard time concentrating on your prayers if there's a really cute guy standing right next to you? And I thought, yeah. And that was, that was my first glimmer that things in Judaism might make sense. And so I already went to this orthodox wedding that you mentioned with that feeling. It was my second day of classes at an all women's, you know, a seminary and Orthodox Jewish seminary. And I had been invited to kind of crash this orthodox wedding, which I thought was kind of cool I had to do was put on a skirt and they would take me and so I put on the one skirt ioannes. And I get taken to this wedding. I enter the hall. And right away I see this beautiful bride in a very, very, very modest Victorian style wedding dress, sitting on this chair with all these people around her. And I stared at her, and I thought she she doesn't look like a normal woman and her young 20s Like what is it about her? She just looks weird. And then I realized, you know what it is? She looks really pure and innocent. And really, who is a young 20s in our world? looks pure and innocent anymore, you know. So she kind of stood out like a sore thumb. And I commented on this to the person who brought me to the wedding. And she said to me, maybe if she looks pure and innocent, it's because she is. And then she proceeded to tell me that not only had this young woman never slept with her fiance, or presumably any other man, but they had never even fooled around how kissed held hands, they had never even touched, she was married. And my jaw just dropped up. And I spent the whole wedding like, you know, with my jaw on my chest. And that was kind of my introduction to, to the whole idea of not having any physical relationship before you get married. And that became the basis of my first book.

Margarita Gurri: 5:59

Wow, I just think that's a fascinating story. Then you were just so drawn to it. One of the things I find compelling about the way you talk about when women and religion and spirituality and intimacy and sexuality is that it makes so much sense. The whole idea of modesty. The Rabbi, I like the way the rabbi and I were talking about modesty, Rabbi, why don't you share with her, what you were talking about modesty is not just about how we dress. So I love what you were saying, Rabbi.

Yonason Goldson: 6:37

It's about respect. It's about self respect. And it's about respect for others. And if I come into your home, I follow your rules. And I am sensitive to your sensitivity. And in a sense, when when we talk about personal space, we're coming into other people's realm into their domain. And having that sense that my inner self is more important, more significant, more valuable than my outer self, is something that fills us with a sense of personal dignity, and allows us to recognize the dignity and others, I just, I'm sure you all expand upon this schema. But I've often thought and I think 95 Miss America, was crowned as a young woman by the name of Heather Whitestone, who was remarkable number of ways she happened to be deaf, which was quite extraordinary. But she announced, I think, after she was she was coordinated, that she was engaged, and that she and her fiance, had not touched for the first six months that they dated. Now, this is not a Jewish woman. It was it was a woman who was part of the popular culture, which does not appear to have any respect for modesty at all. And yet, she had this sense of personal dignity, this sense of personal discipline. And it was really quite extraordinary to hear from her. This message of self restraint and self control and personal dignity.

Margarita Gurri: 8:19

Wow. And I've heard you speak on male female relationships. And you and and God, if you wouldn't mind addressing that. I love the way you speak about that. In terms of intimacy and love.

Gila Manolson: 8:36

Okay, I'm not exactly sure what aspect of it you want me to speak on?

Margarita Gurri: 8:40

You were talking about life is about relationships. And the closest is with God. And the second is with our relationship with the partner.

Gila Manolson: 8:50

Right? Well. Further, I'll say that our relationship with a partner is almost like a paradigm for our relationship with God. Which is exactly why the days when the temple was standing, the high priest, the holiest person or the person who officiated the holiest ceremonies had to be married. because the assumption was till you've known the intimacy of a marital relationship, how can you know what that intense closeness to God could possibly feel like? And that's why the whole book The Song of Songs shared a shilling is somewhat almost erotic, you know, description of a very deeply passionate, loving, male female relationship, and it's used as a paradigm for our relationship with God. So the idea is that that relationships are meant to be holy. They're not just meant to grant pleasure, and you know, contentment and happiness, although certainly that as well, but they're meant to kind of help us access a deep For a level of, of reality, in which we begin to really understand what love is, and a very, very deep level, and what oneness with another person is, so that we can then hopefully transfer that experience onto our relationship with God, which is much more difficult because of course, of course, God is abstract and doesn't verbally respond to us and requires a lot of faith to believe in Him. But, but there is no better preparation for that than a marital relationship.

Margarita Gurri: 10:35

And I think you're, you're a best selling author, the Magic Touch outside inside, head to heart, choosing to love finding ourselves in a crowd. And my favor that goes with this topic is hands off, this may be love. I love that idea. And it is so paradoxical that if you want to be closer, don't touch. I love that. So tell me about the inspiration for you writing about that. And speaking about that globally, because you've been all over so many countries, what like 40 major countries all around the world?

Gila Manolson: 11:12

Not a not quite about Yeah, about 40 major cities in North America, and a number a number of other countries as well. But not not 40 yet.

Margarita Gurri: 11:23

Not yet. Well, it'll happen. It'll happen I think, reaching people through zoom all over to there you are speaking in Jerusalem to America. So there you go. You're you're ready. So what was the inspiration for hands off this

Unknown: 11:36

may be love.

Gila Manolson: 11:39

So hands up this may be love is actually a rewrite of the Magic Touch for a non Jewish audience I had particularly religious Christians. Okay, because religious Christians, they don't call it you know, guarding touch or cherishing, touched, you know, schmale at Nicaea as we do, but they call it sexual purity, or my favorite term that they use is sexual integrity. I love that sexual integrity, they to have the same concept. So what led me to write the Magic Touch originally, was when I realized that even Jewish teenagers brought up in Orthodox homes. We're not getting a practical approach to it. You know, you can be very religious. I've had very religious kids come over to buy my book. And I'm surprised because it's usually the ones who are not as strong who want to buy it. And it's a no, no, Mrs. Mendelson, you have to understand, we keep everything we're supposed to keep. We don't touch boys. We don't even hang out with boys. But we don't understand why. And like, we just want a practical explanation. And I say to them, listen, yes, you shouldn't have a practical explanation. It'll strengthen your belief in God. Because every Mitzvah, every commandment that God gives us is a gift. It's meant to make us happier. You know, the telling you not to touch boys is not meant to make you miserable. And, you know, ruin ruin your adolescence. On the contrary, it's meant to spare your heartache. It's meant to get you in a more painless and direct line to the right person. So I wrote the book originally, because I saw that religious kids weren't getting this. And then it kind of expanded out to non religious kids. And then it expanded out to adults. I remember when I realized I had to put a more sophisticated looking cover on the book, when I think a 32 or 33 year old guy told me, he was on a date with a woman at the end of the date. He didn't give her a good night kiss, and she was insulted. And he said to her, I'm tired, sick and tired of superficial relationships Here, read this, and he handed her my book. I thought if people in your 30s are passing this around, you know, it deserves it deserves a better cover. And then your publicist? Yeah, exactly. And again, the whole purpose really was to make it really clear. This is not just a matter of sacrificing for your religiosity, and having to do something as unpleasant because you have to because this is what the Torah says to do. No, it's so much to your benefit. And I thought that because I come from a non religious background, and I've had experience dating on both sides of the line, so to speak. I, I felt that I was a good spokeswoman for saying all this fun that you think you're missing is really not worth it in the end. And this this other approach about not touching is actually going to really serve you well.

Margarita Gurri: 14:52

I agree and as a psychologist who's done a lot of work with individuals at various stages of their, in their life Whether they're in a couple now or looking to be in a couple, one thing I know is that intimacy, if it's too soon, can truncate trust and getting to know someone truly in an intimate way. Sex can get in the way, not only does it make many of us stupid, I think our IQ points go down out of our sleeves, because then pretty soon we're, you know, brain out old with all these hormones and, and thoughts and ideas that are not always the best advisors for choices, right. And I, I think that your advice is just just so beautifully put, I'm charmed by the way you write and speak.

Yonason Goldson: 15:41

And you also talk about being a spokeswoman. Just to tell you a brief story, when when I was teaching in the same school with my with my wife, at that time, the I had a class of young ladies, ninth graders, girls, who were, they fancied themselves to be young feminists. And we got off to a bit of a rocky start. And they were they were very combative. And and it went on like that for a few weeks. Until one. One day I had some sort of a conflict, I had missed a class. And I asked my wife to substitute for me. And I finished what I was doing got back a little bit early. I looked through the window into the classroom. And these girls were literally sitting in a semicircle at my wife's feet. gazing up at her with these reverent expressions. And the bell rang, and I open the door and thank you, Mr. Golson, please come back and teach us again sometime. And if the girls were gone, I said to my, what do you say to them? And she said, I said the same thing you say to them? That's it, what are you talking about? She says, You're a man. When you say it's sexist. I'm a woman, when I say it's beautiful.

Gila Manolson: 17:16

It's very, very true. I'll go even a step further without, without wanting to offend you, Rabbi. But there's actually something somewhat obnoxious sometimes about a man purporting to tell a woman what her role should be, or why she should be dressed modestly, or kind of anything. When it comes from a fellow woman. You know, it's kind of like a man telling a woman like, you know, how she should breeze during labor and birth. You know, it's like, Get out of here, you've never been there, you don't know what, like, you know, you know, you want to want to, and it's a shared experience. And when a woman can promote modesty, she's not promoting it with any, there's no reason to suspect her of having any hidden agenda of wanting to keep you in your place, or keep you down, or, you know, silence you or anything like that, you know, if she's self respecting, you know that she is doing it because she believes it's going to increase your own self respect,

Margarita Gurri: 18:17

yes. And personal power. I was part of a program helping young women who were in a juvenile prison. And one of the signs that I'm teaching them was manners, including how to sit and stand modestly. How to say no. So I think that some of the stuff in your books talks about boundaries, how we show respect for ourselves, how we gain personal power, by holding ourselves dear. I think that's a big part of the magic that you bring in your writing and in your spoken word, that whole idea of becoming more of the amazingness that we can each be by holding ourselves, dear. I just love that.

Gila Manolson: 19:03

Well, the more that you liberate yourself and liberate his word here, the more that you liberate yourself to the need from the need for affirmation, public approval, male attention, whatever it is, you become more and more centered in yourself. And you simply and liberation is exactly the word word. It's a you simply have a sense of empowerment. You have a sense that just because some good looking guy walks down the street, I don't have to like flip a switch and immediately enter into flirt mode, or you know, whatever it is, it's like, no, I am who I am. I'll choose how I want to behave when I choose to behave that way, but nobody is going to prompt me for get me to move from my center. I know who I am at my core. And and I'm staying there until I show To behave differently, and that's it helps.

Margarita Gurri: 20:03

I'm sorry. No, go ahead. I think it helps attract a more amazing kind of partner, you know?

Gila Manolson: 20:11

Well, yeah, I learned that actually, from experience that, that I witnessed myself that I write about in my book outside inside, where a guy who happened upon a scene with a couple of women ended up being far more interested in the woman who was not overtly flirting with him, who kind of politely ignored him just kind of kept doing what she was doing, looked up once in a while to smile or nod went back to what she was doing. And meanwhile, he was having a great time talking to her friend, and she figured out he is probably interested in her and later, she actually told her, he actually told her that the fact that you didn't need to get my attention, made me feel that you have more content to you and intrigue me and make me more interested in you. So this is one message I'm trying, I'm constantly trying to give girls, because they know that the quickest way to turn ahead is just to take off half your clothes, you know, and be willing to get physical with a guy. And my whole point, okay, my whole point is that, yeah, you will attract a certain kind of guy very easily that way, you want a quality guy, you want a guy who really wants a real relationship, and don't sell yourself short. Don't Don't, don't put the cart before the horse, don't let sex appeal be your major calling card, let him get to know you build a relationship based upon you know, communication, rather than skin to skin contact. And that's how that's how you land a great relationship.

Margarita Gurri: 21:50

I heard yourself with God. And with the partner, Rob, I'm sorry.

Yonason Goldson: 21:54

I heard a story number of years ago, you may know better than I do. There's a young thing. It was a young Filipino woman who was walking out of the New York City Public Library. And there were a few young men walking up into the library. And this is a woman who was very, it was very attractive and showed herself off. And one of these young men saw her and then quickly looked away. And she stopped, she was stunned. She'd never elicited that reaction. And she, she was baffled. But she noticed that the man the announced vegan spoke out. And so she turned around, went back in the library, to look up Jewish culture to understand maybe I can understand why this person reacted this way. And she discovered the concept of personal dignity. And it changed the whole course of her life.

Gila Manolson: 22:50

Yeah, I actually was told a story about a Jordanian woman who I think read my book, The Magic touches something and consequently wanted to convert to Judaism. But the fact is, is that Judaism is an ability, and please don't be offended by this word to civilize men. If I can say that, you know,

Margarita Gurri: 23:14

or at least I think all women will like that.

Gila Manolson: 23:17

Okay, but it's not about God forbid, I'm not saying that I'm civilized. But But however, some behaved in uncivilized way. Judaism's ability to bring out the best in men is it's it's probably its strongest selling point, the turn of the men to turn men into the wonderful people that they're capable of being. I once got a phone call from a young Israeli man. And he said to me, he said, in Hebrew Bell, I'll say it over in English. He said, This is malice. And if you speak to women, this is what I think you should tell them about us men. He said, We men have an outer will, and an inner will. And my outer will is for what looks good, and what feels good now. And if a woman dresses provocatively, and is willing to get physical with me, I'm going to go for that I'm going to go after my outer will, he said, but we also have an inner will. And he said, My inner well is for the same thing that women want. I want love, I want depth, I want emotional intimacy. And when a woman dresses more modestly, and refuses to get physical with me, she forces me to get in touch with my own inner will. She brings out a hold inside of me. And we ended up having a relationship that could be really meaningful. And it concluded by saying, You women have more power than you realize. Now, I'm certainly not saying women are responsible for men's behavior, they're fully responsible for their own behavior. However, people can elicit the better side of someone else we can be spiritual catalysts for one another. And when a woman maintains her dignity Today, she catalyzes the spirituality in a male. And don't we all want more men like that walking around this world? I sure as heck do. You know,

Yonason Goldson: 25:10

they're saying that this really compelling. Women have more power than they know. And, you know, we live in a culture that, to a large extent is dispensing with traditional roles, because they see those roles as oppressive and sexist. And yet implicit in what you're saying is that there may be some profound reason why those traditional roles benefit all of us. Can you speak to that?

Gila Manolson: 25:44

Well, yeah, I mean, there are differences, innate differences between males and females is pretty well documented. You know, and one of them is that men's brains are hard wired to be more visual. Okay, men will have pinups of women on their walls of sort that men, women will not have men. And to have, I don't want to I don't want to get into details about what they do, or looking at those pennants. But what I'm saying is it men men are triggered visually, that's just the way they work. And women are far more triggered by other things as well. Okay, for example, I will ask a room, I will I haven't wanted to ask a bunch of guys, it was really funny. It's our 11th graders. I said, Imagine walking to a restaurant, you see the most stunning girl you've ever seen in your life. And she opens up her mouth and starts saying really stupid stuff. I said, you probably don't want to marry her. But I bet she still be will be very happy to go out with her. And they're all like, yep, yep, yep. And I said to the sort of girls, now you imagine walking to a restaurant, there's a really cute guy sitting there, he opens up his mouth and starts saying really stupid stuff. His attractiveness plummets, correct. And they're all like, yep. So we look at one another differently. And so the traditional idea that women have historically been more modest, or have been seen as being like, the guardians of modesty, or whatever you want to call it, is simply because of the fact that if you don't want to be reduced to something just physical, by what feminists call the male gaze, okay? Then you're just simply being self protective. You're protecting your own human dignity, by dressing more modestly. Okay. And, you know, look, I if I created the world, I might have not created gender differences the way they are. But I as a feminist, I believe that we have to deal with reality. And the reality is, if men and women are different, don't pretend they aren't. And don't pretend that I can walk around however I want, and still expect men to respect me. Because that's just it's it's a joke. It's a joke. I remember once reading a story, and I think it was Reader's Digest, about a woman who was set up with a guy and the guy was told she is very academic and brainy. So he was very surprised when she showed up for the date and a very provocative dress with a slot, a thigh, high slit and low cut and the whole works. And, and he just blurted out, wow, here, your brains don't show at all. And, and that's exactly it. You know, when I was on the Yale campus, I'll never forget this. Um, Playboy magazine came to campus to do a special feature addition on women of the Ivy League. And they were paying various amounts for what state you allowed yourself to be photographed in. So we say, okay, now I remember thinking to myself, No, like you're wasting your time. This is yeah, we're all intellectual women here. Nobody's gonna be photographed for your magazine. Women were lined up to be photographed for it, because they wanted to send the message. You think all of us Ivy League women are a bunch of sexless? Brainy, dorks? Well, guess what, you know, we can be we can be brainy and sexy. But the point is, I don't think any guy flipping through that edition of Playboy was fantasizing about having an intellectual discussion with one of these women. You know, yo, do you think she has a PhD? Wow, I'd like to discuss Canton Descartes with her. Yeah, I don't think so. You know, so this is reality. I believe in dealing with reality, whether you like it or not, it's reality. And there is a lot of wisdom behind certain traditional aspects of femininity.

Margarita Gurri: 29:49

So let me go back to your origin story, which speaks to this issue of, can you be a feminist and an observant orthodox woman at the same time, the issue of going in and the partitions the separation. That's something that I think is pretty well misunderstood. I'm Catholic, so I'm, I'm not Jewish. I don't really understand it. I've asked many people from various religions, they don't understand it. The Rabbi's explained it to me and my, my friend has explained it to me, she's an observant woman, please address that I'm, I'm curious.

Gila Manolson: 30:24

I do they do have a partition historically, was simply made to prevent, I'll be honest, to prevent men from being distracted by women. So what this woman really said to me at the wall, wouldn't you have a hard time concentrating on your pairs that is acute next year, that's not the repetition is really primarily to prevent the visual distraction of men, you know, by by women, okay. And that's really important. And what women don't realize is that we are the beneficiaries. When we create a society in which when men are less focused on women, when a man can go to a synagogue and pray, without having an attractive woman distracting him right next to him, he ends up being a better kind of male and the kind of male that you're going to want your daughter to marry more than the other kind. Okay, so the partition is designed to prevent distraction during prayer. Now that the problem with partitions is some of them are affected in ways that peripheral eyes women, and as a feminist, I find that offensive, I'll be honest with you. And I simply choose to go to synagogues, in which I feel that the petitioner is affected in a way to make me feel included to make me feel that my presence there is appreciated. And I'm not kind of like stuck in some back corner somewhere or whatever. So the so there's no, I have no problem. And I'm, heartily endorse the idea of separation. However, I have distinct preferences about how the separation should be affected.

Yonason Goldson: 31:57

I think that's another explanation, that additional explanation, that traditionally, men have seen themselves as the protectors of women. And when we're standing in front of God, we want to feel that God is our protector. So if I feel that I'm responsible for protecting the woman next to me, or the woman next to me feels that I feel that she's protecting me, then we're both going to have more difficulty feeling that relationship with God as our protected.

Gila Manolson: 32:34

Hmm, that's interesting. I never heard that before. It's a really interesting idea.

Yonason Goldson: 32:40

But it does lead into another element here that I'd like to sort of move towards is that we've been talking about modesty in terms of sexuality, and attraction. Doesn't modesty really go beyond that? Doesn't mean I see also apply to men. Doesn't it apply to society? I mean, how can we see modesty in a way that transcends the whole sexual element?

Gila Manolson: 33:08

Absolutely. And the reason why it's emphasized more for women is because women are more overtly sexual in certain ways. And men view them more sexually, so they're a greater danger of diminishing themselves in their own eyes, which is really, really tragic. But of course, it applies strongly, both to men and women. And in that sense, modesty, or snoot, as we say in Hebrew, which I actually prefer to translate as internality. Okay, but internality basically means I want to downplay the more superficial aspects of myself, so that people have a better chance of being able to relate to me for who I am inside. And so I can wean myself from needing again, all this superficial attention or approval, whatever it is, when a teenage boy goes zooming through a neighborhood, on a motorcycle without a muffler. Okay. He's been just as immodest as a women wearing a low cut dress. It's the same thing. It's like saying, Yep, you know, a while I want people to look at me and think, wow, he's cool. He has a noisy motorcycle. Wow. Like, what does that have to do with who you are? All you're doing is you're creating a false image for yourself. And the more people invest in that image, the more it takes over their true sense of self, to the point where they can really really lose who they are inside. I read a really interesting book once in Hebrew, about all kinds of women in the performing arts, models, dancers, singers, whatever, who all had eating disorders. And the theme that ran through the book was an absolute sense of self. Like a black hole. Where their selfhood should be. And that is the product of a very, very immodest society. And so we have to fight that at every turn. At every turn, we have to say, I'm not my looks, I'm not my body, I'm not my achievements. What happens to the what happens to the achievement oriented guy who loses his job? Does his self esteem plummet? Does he feel I'm not worth anything anymore? God forbid, okay, I'm not even the causes I support. I'm not anything short of my soul. And unfortunately, some people discover that the hard way when they have a lot of things taken away from themselves, and they're kind of left with only their soul. And they realize, oh, this is who I was all along a soul, my whole tactic in life is to kind of try and preempt God. So to stick and try and figure out what I meant to learn without having to learn the hard way. And so I'm constantly working on trying to get more in touch with myself as a soul, while my body is still intact. And I still have other sources of goodness in my life.

Margarita Gurri: 36:12

Well, and as I say, the, as a modest woman, you also look beautiful. So I don't think modesty in any ways downplays beauty. I think it presents a beauty in a different way. I wanted to go back to two issues. One is the motorcycle I don't know if you've ever written one. But part of why they make them loud is for safety. So that people hear them, because they don't always see them. Now, you can be immodest, with a super loud or fancy that could be separate. That's showy. But just to just to be clear that some of the loudness is on purpose for safety. Okay, yeah. So has nothing to do.

Gila Manolson: 36:56

I've just heard something that seems to be that seem to be much louder than than safety would require. You know what I mean? Well, there are things Awesome.

Margarita Gurri: 37:05

Yeah, there are sound limits for what is considered safe in different areas, in noisy areas, residential, whatever. So we've begun to put modesty requirements on the sound in different organizations, because sometimes we don't have our own limits. I, I love the idea of being a feminist and an observant woman. One of the questions that comes up for a lot of women is the issue of power. How can you think that you're the reason why men are distracted and at the same time, feel powerful and not marginalized? That's one of the questions you've addressed that well, but I think you you address it super well in other forums that I've heard, please address that how can we not be second class citizens? If we know that we are the distractors

Gila Manolson: 37:58

okay? Because we are distractors only when we are distracting. I don't know, some women might disagree with me, but I don't feel that my inherent existence is distracting. I think I could be capable of this when I was younger, I could be capable of being distracting by by wearing less clothing perhaps or whatever. Okay. But I I have a I have a My personhood also. And I believe that every woman has the ability to present herself in such a way that she sends a very loud, clear message I am to be related to, from my mind, from my thoughts from my ideas. I even asked my rabbi about this one, because I speak for, there's some women who will only speak for all female audiences. Well, I don't I speak for mixed audiences. I don't speak for all male audiences. I'll speak to anyone who wants to hear me talk. You want to know the truth? Okay. But um, I asked her Rabbi once, you know, what is the same with women who won't speak for men? Like should I really not be speaking in front of men or something? And he said, No, there's absolutely no reason why you shouldn't be. He said, It all depends upon how you comport yourself. If you get up there and you're wearing a lot of makeup and you know, read outlines, lips and you know, fake long eyelashes, and you're dressing provocatively, and your gestures and your body language and everything like that is drawing attention to I'd say, to your form, rather than your content, so to speak, to your outside rather than your inside. That is a modest, that's inappropriate and no, then you should not be speaking in front of men. But if you get up there in a dignified way, you're conveying thoughts, you're conveying ideas and information. You've downplayed, you know, your overt sexuality or something like that. Okay, then you are fine. And then at that point, the given man nevertheless finds you distracting, with full head covering and with minimal makeup. Where I don't I don't wear makeup at all, but I know I'm weird in that way. Most are some makeup, you know, and modest clothing, that's his problem, then that becomes his problem, and he shouldn't look at you. But it does not mean that God forbid, you should stop sharing your message. If you're doing it in a dignified way.

Margarita Gurri: 40:18

When your message is amplified, by the way you behave, I think it's it's beautifully done. The only thing I disagree with is the lipstick Cuban culture. My father would say, risk greatness, you know, like, be brave, do what you need to do. And my mother would say, but first put on lipstick. So in my culture, you put your well dressed. So I know there's some cultural issues there. I love the idea of women being powerful. And I think that the the rabbi speaks to how powerful women are. Well, I love the way he speaks about his wife. It's very nice. And I think she's an amazingly strong woman who makes such a big difference, you know,

Yonason Goldson: 41:04

you might be listening. Well, good. Well, hi.

Margarita Gurri: 41:08

He talks about you, I'm just saying,

Gila Manolson: 41:11

Well, I want to spend power, described as the ability to affect change. So if you are trying to affect change in the world, it doesn't have to always be overt. It doesn't have to be heavy handed. It doesn't have to be polish, can be very quiet. And behind the scenes, and nevertheless, if you are effecting change, then you are powerful. And that's how I look at it, I can affect a lot a lot of change without having to spotlight myself, without having to yell without having to occupy a podium, I can, I can basically just share my ideas quietly, in any number of ways, if I'm effecting change in the world, and I'm powerful.

Margarita Gurri: 42:04

And I think, feminist without disagreeing with people or being offensive. When I was young, I thought feminists had to dress like men, you know, an

Yonason Goldson: 42:14

important point that you've made is that you don't have to make yourself unattractive, to be dignified. The other thought that enters my mind is that we don't get into politics on this show. But right now in America here we have a president that some question whether he's in complete control. And it could be some people are concerned by this, that there's somebody else behind the scenes that may actually be making decisions? If that's so that's the person with the power, not the person who's holding the office.

Gila Manolson: 42:52

Exactly. And yes, and it could be one's wife, or it could be one other other political figure. But it doesn't really matter. The person who is on center stage does not have to be the person who is the most powerful one by any means.

Margarita Gurri: 43:11

So what advice do you give to men and women in terms of being more powerful, with regard to what you've learned about how we present ourselves and how we really are inside? What advice do you give?

Gila Manolson: 43:29

To me, there is nothing more powerful in the world than helping put people in touch with their own souls. It's it sounds, I hope, it doesn't sound banal or try it. But it really is that simple. And so if I have a conversation with somebody, in which I can get her to realize who she really is, what her potential contribution to the world could be, what kind of relationship she's capable of what kind of a man she deserves. Then I feel like if exercise phenomenal power, I feel like I've changed my small corner of the world a little bit. And I believe that that has a ripple effect. And, and I really just believe it's by a lot of people creating ripples in the world, the stuff gets out there. And it's just the way we interact with people. I mean, I can think of people in my past who moved me who made me rethink who I am as a woman, just by the way they acted. They never even said anything. And just by being yourself. I hate to say this, but it seems like there are very few people in this world who are really deeply in touch with themselves. And

Margarita Gurri: 44:47

that's it, I think less than five to 10% are truly in touch with themselves. That's my that's my assessment. At any given time.

Gila Manolson: 44:58

Yeah, I would agree. I think Yeah, I actually have had women come up to me after a call saying this is Nelson, it sounds great. You're talking about getting in touch with your internal self, but I don't know, my internal self is

Margarita Gurri: 45:15

what advice do you

Gila Manolson: 45:16

know? So I'll say to them, okay, so who do you think you are? What do you think makes you special and unique in the world? So she'll say, you know, I'm really skinny and pretty, or maybe she'll say, I'm a really talented guitar player. Or maybe she'll say, I'm a very successful lawyer. And I'll say, Okay, so let's imagine that was taken away from you. Okay, you're a successful lawyer, you lose your job, okay? Or you have a horrible accident, and you're cognitively impaired afterwards. Okay. So who are you now? What can you still do, and when they realized, I can still shine light in the world, I can still love, I can still talk to people, I can still comfort people, I can still share my soul with people. I say, well, that's your real self. And now when you want to go back to being a lawyer, do it from that place, do it from that place of I'm a lawyer, because I have a higher purpose in the world. And law is helping me support that purpose. But it is not my definition. So that's, that's everything that I try and do, especially with teenage girls, it's like really a challenge in this society, and everybody wants to be hot, you know, and just getting you to appreciate who you are, I mean, girls will say to me, they'll actually say to me, you know, when one girl said to me, I'd like to stop touching my boyfriend and being physical 10, but I'm afraid he'll break up with me. Or girls will write into a magazine and they'll say, What do I do? If a guy wants to sleep with me, and I don't want to sleep with him. You know, I saw I saw a letter like that was actually cited in a book that a friend of mine wrote, in which they won't young woman wrote into the editor of women's magazine and asked that question. Now, if you asked me that question, I would say, if you don't want to sleep with him, don't it's that's nothing more to say it's your body, it's your choice. The editor of the woman's magazine said, Well, if you don't want to sleep with him, then you know, give him something else. You know, you have to do some, I mean, you Oh, you have to do something, you know, I'm like, that's the advice young women are being given today. Okay. So you know, you owe somebody something, I don't care if you paid for dinner, and tickets to a concert, you don't owe anybody anything, when it comes to your body. And if you're afraid that you're about to go out on a date, and that might be the bargaining chip at the end of the evening, then you stated at the beginning of the day, say I would love to go out, I just want you to know, however that I don't view you paying for me that I'm going to owe you something right. So we can we can go Dutch if you want. Or you can still treat me but I accept the treat. But it's not advanced payment.

Margarita Gurri: 48:26

No, that's an older profession.

Gila Manolson: 48:29

Exactly. Exactly. But there are a lot of women who find themselves in that situation.

Margarita Gurri: 48:37

Well, I think it's true of so many people these days. And maybe it was always that way. I don't know to wax philosophically on this one. I think it's hard for people to set boundaries that fit what they think is the right thing to do. And they're afraid to not be liked. I think the biggest gift we give people as leaders in whatever capacity in our home in the community at work, is that we don't need people to approve of us or to like us, we do what's right, we do what's best, and hopefully they'll respect us. And maybe they'll like us, maybe they won't. But I think that's one of the best gifts we can give to people not needing them to like us, gives them the gives us the freedom to be our best selves, as you say to impact people at the soul level.

Gila Manolson: 49:27

Absolutely. And when you talk about boundaries, I mean boundaries were kind of blown to smithereens starting in the 60s.

Margarita Gurri: 49:34

I remember

Gila Manolson: 49:37

I used to, you know, we're all sitting so much

Margarita Gurri: 49:40

pressure to be cool. And that meant you slept with everyone, you know, and did drugs and disrespected people that authority was an interesting time. For a group that talked about love. It was there was a lot of disrespect, and I think different generations swing one way and one way The other and hopefully we'll find ourselves somewhere in a more respectful place, more powerful and respectful place. So,

Gila Manolson: 50:08

God will, God willing,

Margarita Gurri: 50:10

God without bad.

Gila Manolson: 50:13

Boundaries is so essential, because boundaries is a way of saying, you know, boundaries is what keeps out what's meant to stay out and protects what's inside. And when that boundary is porous, and everything just flows back and forth, you lose your sense of self, you lose your dignity, you become fair game for almost anybody.

Margarita Gurri: 50:33

Absolutely. And if we don't have our own values established, that we default to everyone else, it's like the rabbi's TED talk, you know, whose values are you reenacting? And I think that understanding who we are, and what we believe in is a lot of work. It's really obnoxious process because you can't just borrow your parents, or some TV stars, values, you have to discern them for yourselves. And that's just a pain in the neck.

Gila Manolson: 51:01

Yeah, and if I if I could, if I could just like emphasize a point that particularly in our society today, we just, we don't need sheep, we need people who are willing to stand up for these values, and not be afraid. And I'll just tell you a story that was so disheartening, and, and I but I think that we're capable of turning it around. I really am optimistic if people just get on top of things. But I remember when, when a little girl I knew she was six years old in first grade, and she became a cheerleader. Now I was really taken aback because in my day, cheerleading was something you did starting in junior high, and I never heard of first grade cheerleader before. Okay, it turns out, she was cheering on the first grade football players. So I asked her mother, I said, Don't you have enough feminist in you to object to your little girl being socialized into the role of cheering on the boys at age six. And she said, two things that really bothered me. First of all, she said, I didn't like it. But I didn't feel like fighting her about it. Now personally feel that when a little daughter's humanity is at stake, you fight for it, and you fight your dog for it if you have to. But the second thing she said was even more disturbing. She said, But then what happened is my daughter came home from cheerleading practice with a cheer that included the words, shake your thing. And at that point, she said, I went to the cheerleading coach, and I said, Excuse me, but I don't want my little daughter to know she has a thing. And I certainly don't want her shaking it. And the coach graciously removed that cheer, the roster of cheers. What happens next, what happened next was at a half a dozen other mothers all called up this woman and said, Thanks for speaking up. We wanted to, but we were afraid to be considered prudes. Now, when a mother is more concerned about what other people other people can think that she's approved, then protecting her own daughters person. And everything at age six, really scary problem. Those mothers have a lot of work to do ourselves. And I really, I really believe that we women have to get our act together, and realize that the only person I have to answer to in this world is myself and God, and the whole world for what I care can think that I'm approved. And that's just fine with me, if I'm doing right by my daughter. And I would like women to have that sense of self confidence. And just say, I don't care what the world thinks about me. You know, as a Jew, we have always been in the minority. Jews have always been the whole world believed in idols, the whole world believed that that Jews poisoned the wells and caused the Black Plague. The whole Christian world believed No offense. But you know that Jews murdered a little boy every Passover time, and he's his blood to make mosses and we Jews, this tiny little fraction knew the whole world is crazy. And we are right. We know the truth. And so we had to take that forward, all of us Jewish and non Jewish into our lives today and realize you might be 1/10 of 1% of the population in terms of your beliefs. The whole world might think it's just fine for little six year old girls to shake their thing and be cheerleaders for the boys, you know, or whatever it is. And if you don't think that way, you stand up for what you believe in, believe in yourself. Just believe in yourself. That's the message I would love to like really leave people with believe in yourself.

Yonason Goldson: 54:50

Well, that's, you know, I'm so glad that you articulated that so so powerfully because we've sort of not driven home today our main topic, which is ethics. But as we've mentioned many times in the past that the C and ethics stands for courage. And courage is only possible when we have confidence in ourselves in our beliefs, in our values, and in the relationships that support us in being able to live those values, and to be able to speak firmly, respectfully, but with commitment, with courage to show respect for those who may not see things our way without compromising who we are, or what we believe, that really positions us to have a positive influence on society. And clearly you are having that, that influence and we salute you for that. Yes, very much.

Gila Manolson: 55:52

And I feel this, it really is a very strong ethical issue. And to me, everything we've spoken about tonight is inseparable from the larger topic of ethics. And God willing, we should be able to implant it in our lives.

Margarita Gurri: 56:08

What could be more ethical than speaking up for what is right and, and working hard to be the best version of ourselves we can be, so that we can impact others as well. I can't imagine anything stronger than that. Well, I'm going to ask the rabbi for the word of the day and then we'll ask you for some final words of wisdom. Rabbi.

Yonason Goldson: 56:30

Word of the Day is a word you may not know was word I didn't know until recently. Or just a sec, cod Succot sa CC A D, E, and has two meanings, which at first appear to have nothing to do with one another. The first is, it's the act of checking a horse quickly with a single strong pull of the reins. And the second meeting is an Optima logical word. It's a series of small jerky movements of the eye, when changing focus from one point to another. And we live in a world where there's so many distractions. There's so many. I mean, everybody's trying to get our attention. It's what social media is all about. It's been you've heard this many times, probably that we now human beings now officially have a shorter attention span than a goldfish. Goldfish was nine seconds human beings are eight seconds that we flipped from one from one topic to another. And our society is increasingly designed to pull us away. And that modesty is really about filtering, the distractions, the physical, the superficial, the substance plus distractions of life, to help us focus on the internal, on the substantive on the truly meaningful. And by doing that, we can rein in our baser impulses. And we can allow our true selves, our noble selves, to hold those reins to keep us on course to keep us focused, so that we really can live more meaningful, more beautiful, and ultimately more intimate lives.

Margarita Gurri: 58:29

Well said, Rob by, right.

Yonason Goldson: 58:33

I'll send you a thank you for joining us. It's been a pleasure. And could you leave us with a final thought?

Gila Manolson: 58:43

Well, I was just thinking while you were speaking, you threw out this very interesting word which I had never heard before. So I'd be I share with you my favorite word in the entire English language, which you will have heard before, but that word is wholesome, wholesome. To me, wholesomeness represents somebody who doesn't need to prove anything to anybody who's just happy in her skin, is who she is natural down to earth, authentic. And to me, that goes hand in hand with modesty. And I'm not talking about obviously skirt lengths and sleeve lengths because you can be a very wholesome, modest person. Although you might not be following orthodox dress code or whatever and sad to say you can be following an orthodox dress code and be lacking in internal modesty and wholesomeness. Okay, obviously, the two are best when done together. Okay. But, um, I just kind of want to leave all your listeners in my own personal blessing, that they move towards an ideal of wholesomeness in their own lives and that they spread that out to others.

Margarita Gurri: 59:58

Beautiful last word Thank you.

Gila Manolson: 1:00:03

Thank you for having me.

Margarita Gurri: 1:00:05

We're just delighted and honored.

Yonason Goldson: 1:00:08

What's the last word?

Margarita Gurri: 1:00:10

Alright, so the last word, I've been listening with excitement. And I know some people will not quite understand what you're talking about. So I ask everyone out there listening. And remember that everything we say and don't say, everything we do and don't do, and how we do it has impact on ourselves, others and the context in which we find ourselves. And if you knew that was a secret weapon that could help you be the best self? Wouldn't you want to try it out? So I urge everyone to try the idea of modesty of how we present ourselves. Are we allowing people to see the true power in us? are we offering distraction with bad language? Too much yelling, because modesty can also be yelling and bullying, and you know, how we present ourselves in our language overly powerful or really aggressive? So ask yourself, if you knew this was a secret weapon and being more powerful, and influencing everyone more positively? Would you give it a try? So ask how are you already managing this modesty in your life so beautifully? And what one, two or three things can you do? to up your game, so you can have a more positive influence? That's what I leave people with. Thank you both for being on. This was a very thoughtful discussion. You've given me a lot to think about as well. And I will certainly look forward to having you on the show again. I know the rabbi will, too. Thank you all and have a very nice week until the next podcast of the rabbi in the shrink. If you have questions, please send us an email podcast at the rabbi in the shrink calm. And we look forward to hearing your comments. Thank you. Thank you both. Thank you