#48: Matt Ward - The Ethics of Authentic Connection

How do you outrun a bear in business?

Why isn’t “know, like, and trust” enough to attract partners?

What’s the difference between partnership and kickbacks?

These and other intriguing questions are addressed when referral guru Matt Ward joins The Rabbi and the Shrink.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/mattwardspeaks/

http://www.mattwardspeaks.com/

1:00 Referrals are all about relationships

People do business with people they know, like, trust… and care about

Don’t look at people as commodities

Ethics is a function of authenticity

The four pillars of genuine connection:

Overdelivery

Listening

Surprise

Non-self-serving acts

It takes time: you can accelerate it but not hack it

9:00  Service is the key to building relationships

Think about what you can learn rather what can they do for you

12:00 Referral fees?

What’s the difference between partnership and kickbacks?

Transparency avoids ethical violations

The gift of charity?

18:00 Surround yourself with quality people

How to create a community?

What is the responsibility of the referrer?

Don’t chase the numbers game… work to grow quality connections

Once trust fails, it’s extremely hard to earn back

26:00  What is the role of social media?

How do you outrun a bear in business?

30:00 How to leverage LinkedIn?

“This is not networking.”

Joy is a state of being

Find what you love and pursue it

37:00 Be genuinely curious about other people

The more we know each other, the more we can serve each other

40:00 The word of the day:  Gila, Hebrew for “joy” from the root “wave”

A dissipative structure that holds its shape while its component parts change like a wave, changing while staying the same, the joy of progress

Transcript

Margarita Gurri: 0:03

Welcome to the Rabbi in the Shrink. This is Dr. Margarita, Gurri, Dr. Red Shoe and everyone's favorite rabbi.

Yonason Goldson: 0:11

Yonason Goldson.

Margarita Gurri: 0:12

And the rabbi and I are incredibly happy to have with us again, Matt Ward, welcome, Matt Ward.

Matt Ward: 0:18

Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Margarita Gurri: 0:21

So are we well, this time we invited you. You're an international speaker. I met you, most recently during the time of COVID in a Zoom meeting, where you're presenting technical expertise, and it's a New England chapter. And I know you just moved from Boston to Florida. So congratulations. I think you're much warmer now. Right?

Matt Ward: 0:47

I am much warmer. Yeah.

Margarita Gurri: 0:49

So maybe you're more ready to talk about a hot topic?

Matt Ward: 0:52

Ah, great play on words, right there.

Margarita Gurri: 0:56

Is that unethical to make a bad pun rabbi.

Yonason Goldson: 1:00

Hunter simultaneously good and bad. That's why it's the highest and lowest.

Margarita Gurri: 1:06

So one of the things that Matt Ward is an expert on is he's a consultant on referral. So Matt Ward, tell us what you know, about referrals.

Unknown: 1:18

Referrals are, are what drive business. referrals, as I like to say, are the currency of life, relationships are the currency of life. And referrals come from relationships, right. And so what everybody wants in a small business is more business. And they often say that they get all their new business from referrals. But yet when I follow up with a question, but do you have a strategy in place to get more referrals? The answer is no. And I don't understand that I don't comprehend that, hey, where all this money comes from over here, let's go do something else differently, like Chase new clients or something like that. So

Yonason Goldson: 1:53

I consider referral,

Unknown: 1:55

somebody who's ready, willing and able to buy. And it's really what moves the needle, you know, in a small business, specifically, especially service based businesses, which are the type of businesses that I work with everybody from credit card processing, to real estate, agents, mortgage professionals, web designers, consultants, coaches, things like that. And it's about building relationships in a way that makes sense. So that you don't have to spend a ton of advertising dollars, right, you really not. The idea here is that you're not bribing people to do business with you. You're, you're, you're loving and caring on them enough because you want them in your life. And the byproduct of that is actually referrals. See, the here's the core component, most people believe that people do business with who they know, like and trust. But I believe people do business with who they know, like trust and care about. And I think the core component there is to care. And if you care for other people, not to get referrals. But if you care, because you truly care about the success of other people, then they will care about you. And that will result in referrals at the end of the day.

Yonason Goldson: 3:06

I think you're making a really important point for so many different aspects of life that were so outcome oriented. If I'm if I meet you, and my immediate focus is, what can I get out of you? What can I get from you? What, what how can I leverage you. So now you've become a commodity. If I start off that, or licensing as a commodity, we're never really going to reach a point where we do care about each other. I only I only care about what your market value is in my business. Whereas if we approach from the sense of here's a human being, here's a person who has something of interest to offer, is this person, potentially I can I can create a relationship with and then the benefits are just going to come organically without my chasing them or trying to pursue them. And, you know, Doctor, isn't that just sort of a fundamental insight into human psychology that we have to sort of guard ourselves against slipping into this? Commodity mode?

Margarita Gurri: 4:11

Absolutely. We don't want to be taken advantage of Nord we do we want to cultivate a friendship just for what we can get. You know, so Matt Ward, what's the solution? How can let's say the rabbi and I want to grow our small business here with the rabbi and industry. And let's pretend we want to do it ethically. So what are we to do? What would be some strategies you would suggest for us? Well, a

Unknown: 4:36

couple things. First off, I want to address one thing is that when we do it for the transaction, it's just gross. We see that happen all the time on LinkedIn. Absolutely. Okay. So let's stay away from the transaction to the rabbi's point and to your point, Dr. Zhou. Let's assume we want to do it ethically. Let's not assume that let's do it ethically, because that's the big component of this right is Is the ethics around it will be authentic? And the more authentic we are, the more referrals we're going to get. Yes. Okay. So there's a four part approach that I believe work successfully to gaining referrals in a service based business. And those four, I call them pillars, they can stand on their own, and they can be mixed and matched together. But they're really basic principles. The first one is over deliver. And let me be clear, that's not an under promise and over deliver, like a lot of people like them repeat and regurgitate all the time, under promising and over delivering is unethical. You're setting yourself up for success, not the customer. So just to over deliver, you just have to understand what the expectations of the client are. And then exceed those expectations. You have to do it one more better. That's the goal. Right? So that's over delivery. The second pillar is is listening. Do you listen to people not just with your ears, but also with your eyes? Like, do you know that Dr. Red Shoe has red shoes? Like, right? This is not rocket science, we just pay attention? Do you pay attention to the clothing that people wear that that you interact with? Do you see Facebook friends and social media friends and how they interact? You see their kids and that they their kid lost a tooth and, and their kid graduated from school or what their kids big, you know, Christmas holiday present was whatever it is, right? And so are you paying attention to other people in their in their lives, that's what listening really is. Then they're surprised that's an unexpected gift at an unexpected time. And that can be as basic as a handwritten card. Because the handwritten card is a powerful tool to build a true connection. You make others feel incredibly special when you say a handwritten card, and we keep those handwritten cards, right? One point to a handwritten card is never put your business card in it, because it makes it about you and not about them. Yes, right. And then the final pillar is non self serving acts. So what things can you do for other people that have no bearing or benefit to you, like driving your friend to the airport, saving them the money on a taxi and Uber, or shuttle service or airport service or whatever, right? And you get quality time with your friend, to connect, to build a relationship, if you do these four components in some form or fashion throughout your life, you start showing up in other people's lives, and you do it in an authentic way you do it because you care not because you want referrals, then they will care about you. And the way they show that care is through things similar to your business. Right, because you're a business owner, you're putting it out there, that your business owner, they know your business, that's how they're gonna want to care about you, they're gonna spread the word about you. And it does take time. You can't really short circuit and hack this trust process, this relationship building process, there's a couple things you can do to accelerate it, but you can't hack it. And so you have to do it because you care. Because if you if you if you do it to get referrals, they will see through that. Yep. And you won't get any. We've all been in a networking room where someone is acting like they're there for you. But you can clearly tell they're there for them.

Margarita Gurri: 8:34

Yeah, my favorite is that networking, they come up and they're talking to you. And then they see over your shoulder, someone that might be the bigger fishing, so I gotta go. And then they go. And then you can hear them say the same thing. I'm going well, I was useful to them. It's is not a pretty sight as my, in my culture, we say so Nasik Olindo. That was not pretty. Meaning you shouldn't have done that. So it's fascinating,

Yonason Goldson: 9:01

about so much being of service every day about servant, servant leaders. You know, I was asked to be the programming chair for my chapter, the National Speakers Association. And I reluctantly agreed. And it was the one of the best business decisions I've ever made. Because, you know, I pick our guests up at the airport. Many of them say, Well, you don't have to do that. And I say I No, I don't have to, but you are a guest. And this is the way I was raised. This is the right thing to do. And I have made so many relationships.

Margarita Gurri: 9:43

That's nice

Yonason Goldson: 9:44

that are there. I mean, people become friends. And people know me as a colleague. And I'm able to ask for help when I need it and I'm able to offer help one when it's requested. And I have this wonderful community of connections. that I didn't set out to create or to acquire. You just happen naturally, by being of service.

Unknown: 10:11

I did the exact same thing, exact same thing. I picked up a number of speakers for our chapter from the airport and conversed with them throughout the conversation to the drive. And three or four years later, I get an email saying, Hey, do you want to sit at my table at the CPE? banquet? I was like, Sure, why me? Oh, well, you're an upcoming Star. Like, oh, not really, I just know how to network. I know how to build relationships. I know how to stay in touch. So for me, it wasn't just the drive. Right? But it's also what I did. After that. I constantly was checking in how can I help you? What can I do? Are you going to be in town? Can we meet up for coffee, if you're ever going to be in town again, if you're if you have an event or client that brings you to town, what can we do if I go to your town I'm reaching out, right. And in one case, there was one speaker, who was from Atlanta, Georgia, and their son was going to Berkeley in Boston. And they needed some help. And I offered, I offered to put the college students stuff in my garage for the summer. Like I offered the pick him up, I helped him move in and out. And next thing you know, we're going all three of us, me, the speaker and their son going to Billy Joel at Fenway Park all together. Like it was it's a relationship. And now I can text them and ask them questions. And this is somebody who's a CPA Hall of Famer. Right, they've been around a lot longer than me, when it comes to the industry. You know, and so I'm building friendships, first, relationships. Second, you know, maybe some business will come of it, but likely not, I'm not worried about that. I'm learning. I'm more focused on what can I learn by observing them by following them by watching their social channels by learning about them and who they are and how they survived the economic downturn of 2008. And then the COVID downturn of 2000 and, you know, 2019 2021, however long this is gonna go, how what what can I learn from them? In watching all of that. And so it's, it's exciting to be a part of

Yonason Goldson: 12:24

that's what ethics is all about? How can I develop myself to be a better person? And how can I help other people with my talents, my resources, my opportunities?

Margarita Gurri: 12:36

It makes a big difference. So now let's, let's muddy the waters. Let's talk about referral fees. So now we have relationships. They like us professionally, we like them professionally. Tell me about referral fees, because it's a muddy muddy situation across the board.

Unknown: 12:57

Yeah, so this is a very touchy, muddy as you said, situation, because it's different in every industry. Here's what I like to say, you know, if it's, if it's, you know, your industry better than I do, right, the industry that you're in, at the listener is, and you know, the industry better than I do some industries, you cannot absolutely cannot accept any monetary receipt or gift for a referral, you cannot do it, it's considered unethical, and it's just not allowed. But there are many other industries, where not only is it allowed, it's not considered unethical. So for instance, the industry that I came from was the web design industry. And we would pay referral fees to IT providers who sent us business for websites and we paid 10 or 20%. It's a very standard practice in that industry. And it's never really looked down upon. There are other times in other industries where new business owner might not know about these referral fees and see, see themselves as a referral partner. And they, they might call it a kickback. And to me a kickback is a very negative connotation around referral fee. But ultimately, if that's how they see it, that's how they see it. When you think of things like affiliate marketing, that is a referral fee, right? And so the government has said, You need to disclose that upfront. And so more of that is coming to light because people want to make sure that they're not being overcharged. Again, we're talking about ethics here. The reality is is the more transparent you are about this stuff, the better off it's going to be. Now, again, you want to make sure that when you're involving yourself in a relationship that involves referral fees and transactions of money, that that is talked about early on, because you're going to find out whether or not there's an issue in that industry. You're going to find out if there's a an alternative way to compensate legitimately in that industry. Maybe some industries have a thing that they can't receive money, but they can receive a gift as long as it's not over $50. Right. In other industries, like with government, now, I think it's$25, they can't receive anything more than $25 or something like that.

Margarita Gurri: 15:23

For government zero, there you go. A glass of water,

Unknown: 15:27

right? There you go. And so, so you just have to, the more conversation you have up front about this, the more you can iron it out and make it I think, now, here's an alternative, if you cannot receive a fee, because it's unethical in your business, and you're not allowed to. Let me ask you this question, Dr. Red Shoe? Would it be okay, if I donated what I would normally give you as a fee to a charity of your choice?

Margarita Gurri: 15:55

Yes. And I've often asked that I'm a psychologist, we're not allowed to get referral fees at all. But if if I tell them that they feel compelled, because it's a line item, they can donate it to military children program somewhere in their community. There you go. And I'm allowed to do that. But I can't get credit, my name can't be on it. So a psychologist, I'm not allowed to give or receive a referral fee. Right? Even if it's something that doesn't look like a psychology thing. If I'm speaking, for instance, I'm still a psychologist who speaks. So no matter what that counts, yeah.

Unknown: 16:31

Now, here's the other issue that comes up. People come to me, and we'll be talking, I'll be consulting with them and coaching them on this stuff. And they'll be talking about building out a referral partner program, which typically involves a fee involved there. I'm always very clear to remind my clients that people do not refer for the money. They never refer for the money, they refer because an opportunity presents itself. That's why they refer they're not going to make enough money from 10%. I mean, look, the reality is most of these contracts are not hundreds of 1000s of dollars, and then paying out 10% referral fees, right? They're 1000 or 10,000. And they pay out 5%. Right? It's like 50 bucks, maybe on the high end, 500 bucks. Do you know how many times I'd have to refer you at $500 referral fee to actually make a living doing this? It's not worth my time? Yeah, it's not really my time, right. And so once I really communicate with people, it's spend less time focusing on the money side of referrals, spend more time focusing on educating people on how to what I call bird dog, the referral for you ask the right question. And you need to spend more time finding the right partners who are talking to the right people, your ideal clients, so that they can be in a position to refer you. That's why by the way, clients rarely refer. Clients don't really refer, most people think clients refer because subconsciously, these don't even want to share you they want you available when they call you. Right. That's why asking for a referral never works. Because like, oh, like a red shoe. Yeah, I'm gonna focus on, you know, some people that do sales in their business right. Now you do. Great. How many of them anymore referrals? Well, I imagine a lot of them right. Oh, great, because you introduced me to a few? No, because here's what happens right now. It's like, oh, I just asked you for access to your contact database, which I'm going to sell to. That's gross. Yep. That's really gross. And as a as a society, we love to buy but absolutely despise being sold to. That's why we don't like the cold calling. That's why we call them spammers. And all this stuff, we hang up the phone on them and stuff like that. The other response you get is Oh, Matt. Yeah, you know, let me think of somebody and I'll get back to you. And then it's just like dead silence for weeks. Because I put you in an awkward situation. That's why you should never ask for referrals.

Margarita Gurri: 19:11

Well, when the rabid I get referrals, we make specific referrals, you know, someone who speaks on this? And we say, Yes, this particular person, you know, yeah. And I think it's important to be careful with our reputations. So if I want if I, if I speak on an ethics topic at a keynote, the next year, they're not going to ask me again over for the robot.

Unknown: 19:33

And that's because you're in a position to refer because you're talking to the decision maker and you know, people so that's why speakers get speakers business. Yes, right. That's why speakers are great referral sources for other speakers. That's why mortgage professionals and real estate agents are great referral sources for each other, right? Because they're constantly talking to people who need both of those things. And so I'm a big believer in surrounding yourself. With a great sphere of influence a center of influence these people that are going to refer on a regular basis.

Margarita Gurri: 20:07

So how do you identify those? Let's say there are a lot of people listening who are going, Okay, tell me how.

Unknown: 20:14

So it's a very simple process, it takes about five minutes to do. On a blank piece of paper, the left hand side, you write down 10 clients names, the last 10 clients you had, then on the right hand side, you write down who referred them. If a client refer to client, you throw that one out. You keep doing this until you have 10, client names that were referred by 10, nine clients. Then all I want you to do after that is look at the right side. What's in common? What do they do? Where do they live? Where do they work? Are they part of the Little League program that your kid goes to? Are they part of the karate school that you take your kid to dance school? Are they part of your university, your college? Are they part of your church? Are they all accountants? CPAs. Attorneys? Are they doctors, nurses? What do they do? There's something in common there, find that lowest common denominator, then rinse and repeat. Those are the people you want to build relationships

Yonason Goldson: 21:16

with. I mean, again, we keep coming back to this expression, build relationships. And another element that comes to my mind is that I may go to networking event, we talked for a few minutes. Is either one of us in a brilliant position to give a referral.

Unknown: 21:36

No. Never. Yeah. And that's an area. Yeah.

Yonason Goldson: 21:41

So it is there has to be if I'm going to refer somebody, I mean, ethically, I have to have confidence in the person I'm referring to. I mean, I had this issue when I was teaching high school, and students would come and they would ask for college recommendations. And sometimes I just didn't feel I could recommend them. Right? in good conscience. And it was it was it was always uncomfortable. Because I didn't want to make them feel bad. I didn't want you know, I didn't want to say no, but this is my reputation on the line. And it's my responsibility, that if I'm recommending somebody or referring somebody that I'm convinced that the person that I'm referring to recommending is going to live up to the to the hype. And so if I don't know you well enough, how can I ethically recommend you refer you?

Unknown: 22:44

Yeah, I think that, and that becomes the problem is that there are people out there that expect referrals rather quickly. Yes, they believe that a business card equals the opportunity to refer. And that's not really how this works. And those people end up falling by the wayside. And if they're successful in their business, it's usually because they do a lot of outreach in other ways, like cold calling, or whatever. But typically, they're not successful from a referrals standpoint, because the relationship building isn't there.

Margarita Gurri: 23:22

No, but some people are just so good at what they do, but they don't understand networking. So they make one networking faux pas off to another. But they just happen by by nature of their good character and who they are. And they're good at what they are. And so they get referrals. And you have to then tell them, this strategy does not work for you. Just be yourself and don't do this thing, right. I think it's up to us to help people, you know, have an idea about your networking, let me know if you're interested, I don't just come out and say it, I give him a chance to ask me. You know, that's always awkward and never short an opinion. So

Unknown: 24:04

I've always despised the individual that shows up to a networking group starts handing out business cards, like they're a Pez dispenser. Because i What happened was ultimately I went to a trade show, and a guy was doing this. And he had a web company and I owned a web company at the time, and I'm walking down the tradeshow floor, and he starts trying to hand me his business card. And I said, Oh, I'm all set. Thanks. And he says, You don't need a website. I go, No, I'm all set. And he says, surely you know, someone that needs a website. And then I pointed out my shirt that had my company name on it said Central Mass web design. And I said to him, why would I need that? And so it was just there are so many people in the world of networking that are just oblivious that they're chasing the numbers game on the sales. And as my friend Jason cutter, and I say, it's just gross. It just stop it stop. We don't. The thing I talk to my clients about is do the math. How many clients do you actually need? Not that many. You don't need 1000s You're not Amazon, you're not selling widgets like you don't, you're not, you know, Target, and Walmart and you don't need foot traffic and all this other stuff, right? You might need 20 clients. The problem is you think you need them today, if you had them all show up today and sign a contract today, you'd be screwed. Because you wouldn't be able to deliver. Right? Now you can't over deliver. And it's just a big mess. You want to grow and scale slowly and do it in a way that makes sense so that nothing breaks, right and your clients are happy. And your referral partners who referred those people to you who knew about you, they're happy. Because when you fail the client referral partner, regardless of whether they got compensated, we'll stop referring if you feel the client. That's where the trust that the rabbi was talking about fails, that's that once that trust fails, it's really hard to get it back. And you've got this Trust Bank Account. You're making small deposits in it all the time. The minute you take a withdraw, if you go negative, you're done. You gotta remain positive in that bank account.

Margarita Gurri: 26:20

So do people really need social media strategies that

Unknown: 26:26

I don't think they need? Well, I would argue that we need social media to stay connected and to learn about other people. Because there are things that happen on social media, that we, you know, people are posting on social media, and they're not telling me, you know, they're not making an initiative to tell me they put it on social media. And that's where I see. Right. So I do think we need social media to some degree. Definitely to stay in touch and build the relationships is super helpful for that and define social media, right? It's YouTube, it's Instagram, it's Facebook, its Twitter. It's all these places that I'm comfortable being where also my contacts are. And notice I'm not talking about posting. I'm talking about reading. There's a big difference, reading, commenting, messaging, privately through the chat platform and stuff like that. That's a much different. It's a game changer. No one. Remember, it's very simple, guys. How do you outrun a bear? You don't you outrun each other?

Margarita Gurri: 27:35

Right? How does it say you have a slower friend? That's, that's exactly right. Yeah.

Unknown: 27:39

So how do you outrun a bear in business? You just all you have to do is be one step ahead of your competition, building these relationships, all you have to do if you're the real estate agent, trying to build a relationship with a mortgage professional, all you have to do is contact a mortgage professional one or two more times per year than your competition does. And you will build a better

Margarita Gurri: 28:01

return check someone without looking like a bad networker. What's the strategy? Because I think the best

Unknown: 28:09

strategy I can tell you Dr. Red Shoe is very simple. I send emails and say hey, well, how's business? It's as simple as that. It's literally nothing else. So I had a client one time, a couple months ago, actually. He said, Okay, I'm gonna send I call them reach out emails and reach out, you're gonna reach out and say, Hey, how's everything? How's business? And he's like, okay, and then should I just hit the carriage return a couple times and say, by the way, that project you were thinking of last year? Should we talk about that? I said, No, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's not about your project. It's about actually caring about what's going on in their business. And so what happens when you first start doing this is you get ignored. Then when you do it again, three months later, you get ignored again, then we do it three months later, then they go, Oh, let me reply. And then the next time they reply again, right, and now the conversation starts going. Now there are times where I've had clients send a reach out email, Hey, how are things? And the response back is things are great. You know, I meant to get back to you in order this thing that happens all the time, okay. But that's not why we do it. We do it to establish a rapport and begin rebuilding the relationship for the gap of communication that we've had in the past. That's why we do it. And the role here is to stay in touch.

Margarita Gurri: 29:29

Yeah, the rabbi is very good at meeting people on LinkedIn and being interested in connecting with them just by being his own natural, curious, thoughtful self. I mean, it's not a strategy just being him. You know, what,

Yonason Goldson: 29:44

a marvelous platform for this. Because there's so many people there who are not just posting pictures of here's my lunch. There, they're actually sharing something that has value and you Look at the look at the comments. There might be 100 comments, and 90 of them are cool. Yeah, right thumbs up. If I take two minutes, and write a thoughtful comment, I almost always get some sort of appreciative response, because I'm engaging, not just validating. And this is how we establish ourselves for the quality that we can bring other people, and how we create the relationships that spread and introduce us to more.

Unknown: 30:34

One of the best reach out processes I've done personally and have educated my clients on doing is on LinkedIn through the messaging platform. And it's whereby you send a message, the same can message but you send a message to the active people, so they need to be posting, you know, the wall needs to be active, they need to be active on LinkedIn. But when you see someone post something, then you send them a message, and it says, Hey, I made some big changes in my business. And I wanted to see what you were up to, and I wanted to talk to you have 20 minutes, catch up and see what's going on. And I'd love to hear what you're up to and love to share what I'm up to. And I think I got a hit rate out of 55 messages, I get like 50 appointments on Zoom. Right? And all I do on that call, all I do is learn about them and eventually share what I am up to in five minutes. And it's a reconnect call, right? Then from there. It's like okay, what do I do next? Do I send a handwritten card? Do I send an email in three months or two months or one month? What do I do next? And not every relationship is gonna be the same. You have to gauge it based on who they are, what they do, and how you're connecting with them or not connecting with them. Remember, not, not everybody we connect with we truly connect with, right. And so we might reach out to them maybe once a year or once every other year type of thing. They're just not the connection didn't feel right. But we don't need, you know, 200 really tight connections. We only need 10 or 20.

Margarita Gurri: 32:10

Well, one of my pet peeves is like on LinkedIn. Someone says, Do I have an hour to talk with them? And they haven't connected with me ever. They're just spamming me really? And

Unknown: 32:28

is this after they've sent the connection request? Yeah, yeah. Sorry. You know, what?

Margarita Gurri: 32:33

Part of the connection request or shortly after? Why nice to connect and, and then suddenly, now they're wanting an hour? I find that to be I want to say poor land. I mean, that's just that bad strategy. But it's a big turnoff. You know? What do you call it? I call

Unknown: 32:55

it I call it a pitch slap. A pitch slip? A pitch, slap, slap? Yeah. So they connect you, you know, they connect with you with the sole purpose of pitching you on the next one. So what they're doing is the basically by blindsiding you by slapping you in the face with this pitch that comes right after you accept their connection request. So and I used to reply, and in some cases, would take screenshots of the messaging, because some people would argue one guy actually argue with me once I was like, this is networking. I'm like, You have no idea what networking is. Like, this is not networking, you have no interest, your definition of learning about me as learning about my gaps so that you can solve them. Not actually like referring me, you know? I've always it's always interesting to see the people who are using the system's to do this stuff. Because then what they do is they say, they'll send me a message. Hey, have you ever thought about writing a book? Yeah, I have to wrote two books. Like, what what are you reading? Like? Did you not read my profile? And they don't, so obvious, right? Just don't be them. Don't be that guy. Or that girl. Don't, don't, don't be them. And we can do this all ethically. That's, you know, authentically, we can show up. You can be real. Stop trying to get chasing the money. That's what they're doing. They're chasing the money. It's gross.

Yonason Goldson: 34:39

It's like the pursuit of happiness. Right? You don't really pursue happiness, you pursue purpose, you pursue value, you pursue quality, and then happiness comes into your life. Yeah, you pursue piano. This is this is where we were coming back to where we started.

Unknown: 34:54

See, I think that happiness comes and goes day by day. But it My second book called The High Five effect, how to do business with people who bring you joy, right? I believe that joy is a state of being. It's this sort of overarching timeframe, not one specific hour or day or month. It's what you've achieved, and what you're pursuing the life that you want to live. And to me, a joyful life is freedom, doing what I want, when I want, where I want, and how I want. And so I don't let people block time on my calendar. I choose to not work certain days and times of the day. And I, I sacrifice other things for that. Because if I worked more, I could make more money. But that's not of interest to me. I just don't want to go backwards. Right, I came from poverty. So my goal is to not go backwards. But my goal was to have a lot of free time to travel, to do things that I want to do. I mean, I flew to Arizona for a weekend to go to an expo that I walk the show floor for four hours. And I flew home.

Margarita Gurri: 36:06

That's lovely.

Unknown: 36:08

And I did it because I'm an ATV enthusiast. And it was the dirt Expo. Like all ATV stuff, and it was just great. And I got to go to Phoenix, right?

Margarita Gurri: 36:17

That's a geek out with your peoples. That's right. That's right.

Unknown: 36:21

And I'm looking at all the toys that I can put on my other accessories I can put on my ATV and all this weird stuff radios and, and new helmets and goggles and clubs and, and campers that I'll never buy, right. But it was just and you know, that that's just got, you know, I'm 48. and figure it took me 47 years to find my joy, which is freedom.

Margarita Gurri: 36:48

Congratulations that you've found your joy? Yeah. Well, and I think that you've hit on one of the secrets of happiness, but also relationships. I think what many people miss is do you find something you love? pursue it that makes you more interesting. People then want to connect? And it's fascinating. You know, pick a hobby that's that you've always wanted to do I mean, when you were five? What did you want to do that you didn't do? Or that you did?

Unknown: 37:15

Drive a fire truck?

Margarita Gurri: 37:17

Well, there you go, well, then I I'm seeing some firefighters in your future, I

Unknown: 37:21

need to find a place in this country that will let me drive a fire truck.

Margarita Gurri: 37:25

Hey, why not make it a charity event? I think where there's a will, there's a way you can help somebody make money by by doing that. Now the insurance will be out the roof. But that's a separate issue. That's fascinating. You know, recently I became a blacksmith during the COVID. And I am getting some interesting connections. And I haven't never thought about referrals from them. But I suspect you know, thinking about it that someday that might happen. I don't know. But I'm meeting some most interesting people that are blacksmiths, very fascinating.

Unknown: 38:01

You know, see, when I hear that, I just want to know what you've made. I we could go on for an hour. So this is this is what is interesting about me. And I noticed it. It's not what everybody but I'm a I'm a super curious guy. And I really want to know what it takes. What it took you to get started, what have you made? They just sell any of it? Did you give it away for the holidays as gifts? What what, you know, how hot is the fire? Did you do what do you? What do you have to buy to get started as a blacksmith? Did you feel this fire pit thing? Like, that's all intriguing to me in? I would rather talk about that.

Yonason Goldson: 38:42

Then the business

Unknown: 38:45

of speaking. I mean, I love the business of speaking don't get me wrong, I love to talk about that stuff, or whatever we might have in common. But literally, the blacksmithing is so cool. Like glass blowing anything like that, like super cool. And I. And I think also too, that makes a person interesting, because now we start to know and understand their hobbies. Yeah. And who they are.

Margarita Gurri: 39:11

And I think it's fun to be interested in what people are interested in, you know, the rabbi goes away and does something with his wife, and then I find out about it. And it's fun. And I know more about him and and appreciate his interest and his sensibilities more. And it's such a great way to get to know people. And it's so much better than saying, I know you have however many 1000s of hits on LinkedIn be my friend. You know, I think it's so much better. And you know, I read people's comments and I see who's doing it. I am not the best at social media, but I'm learning. And so I've watched people who I think use it in a thoughtful and interesting ways. So it's been fun. That's one of the things I've learned from both of you. So Good. Well, Rabbi, I'm wondering about the word of the day and then we'll come back back to you, Matt and figure out some last bit of wisdom that you have to offer. Our folks who are seeking great referral networks, those they give, and those they receive

Yonason Goldson: 40:18

the rabbi. Word of the day just came to me about three minutes ago. And it's different from any word of the day. That

Unknown: 40:27

is the word of the day preparation

Yonason Goldson: 40:34

was going to be about I didn't think of it. The word of the day is actually a Hebrew word. As we were just talking about joy and happiness, there are actually eight different words in Hebrew, that mean joy or happiness. And each one of them has different nuance. One of them is the word Gila, which I should have thought of last week, because our our guests was Gila Mandelson, but the word Gila, the name deal means joy. But it also, the word comes from the root Gah, which means a wave wave in the ocean. The root actually means to swirl. When you look at a wave, it's fascinating, because the wave has the same shape as it moves. And as its component parts change, you know, the human in science has got a dissipative structure, it's like a, the water going down the drain, it holds the shape. But the the water droplets keep changing. It's moving, but it's staying stationary. And human beings are like that our cells regenerate this every seven years, were completely different matter than we were. So what are we exactly? I'm not the same bits of atoms and molecules that I used to be what am I? Well, I am the structure, I am the motion I am the movement, the wave moves down the coast with a sense of purpose, in a certain sense of direction. And why is this a term for for joy for happiness, as why with what you said that? That it's a state of being. When we have a sense of purpose and meaning and use a freedom and freedom that's being used responsibly. Right. That's where our, our joy comes from. And that's what it means to mean to live a joyful life. I'm making progress. I'm changing, I'm growing while I'm staying the same. And this is really what ethics is all about. It's about giving us that sense of direction, that sense of how to live a good, meaningful, purposeful life that will naturally fill us with joy, and will bring joy to those people that we bring into our lodge.

Margarita Gurri: 43:04

Well said, Rabbi,

Yonason Goldson: 43:07

thank you. Wow.

Margarita Gurri: 43:10

See, man, that's a real compliment to you because he gets inspired by the speaker for the word. So know that you inspired Joey? And thoughts of it. And ethics. That's pretty cool. So go ahead. I'm sorry.

Unknown: 43:25

I was just gonna say that makes me smile.

Margarita Gurri: 43:28

Well, it should because you make people smile, I find you to be funny and delightful. And one thing you did at the NSA, Michigan meeting,

Unknown: 43:39

is that Massachusetts, New England Oh, yeah.

Margarita Gurri: 43:42

So the Massachusetts me the guy. He, he asked everybody, if you want to further discuss this with me. Here's the link and he offered himself for free for a certain period of time. And of course, I took advantage of it, and got to know him better. And that's kind of cool. So sir, final words of wisdom.

Unknown: 44:03

Well, first off, I like to say that I'm a mushroom. I'm a fun guy. I'm Oh, don't live life too seriously, like, Chase, the joy Chase, the human laughter, Chase, Chase, Chase, whatever. Whatever you feel is missing. Chase it, chase it in your business, chase it in your life. I'm a big believer that we do. We should never allow our businesses to control us. If you want to work seven days a week. I have no problem with that. But it should not be dictated by your business. You should be a choice by you. That to me, is joy, right? Yeah, I just believe that this world's gonna be a better place if we can walk down every hallway, in any building we ever walk in, and just high five people and even with COVID If you don't want to physically touch on the high five, I get it. But just do this at the next networking event you ever go to lock eyes with someone across the room. And as you approach, put your hand up to give them a high five, and watch what happens, even if they don't high five, you, they will smile. And that is what the high five effect is really all about. So, as I wrap up today, I want to share with you what I say at the end of every video, I post on YouTube every single week. And that is, don't forget to live happy. smile a lot. And I find everyone around you.

Yonason Goldson: 45:42

Well, thank you, Matt, that's it's such a simple message. And it's so fundamental that the sages teach us that you should initiate a greeting to every person and meet every person with a pleasant countenance. And that's, you know, make eye contact, smile, say hello, it takes so little effort. And it makes such a big difference. And it will change our lives and will change the lives of those around us. So thank you for sharing your insights and your message with us. And, Doctor, what's the last word? The last word,

Margarita Gurri: 46:21

if you want referrals, be a good person be good at what you do and care about others. Now, I stole that from that word. So then give credit where credit's due. I think that the the thing that sometimes we forget. And I see people who are very depressed these days, and they call me and I talked with them, and they forget why they're doing what they're doing. Why are you doing your business? If it's just for money? Sometimes we have to do that. But is there a way to find something that is meaningful for you? Or do What are you doing in a more meaningful way that will help you have the energy to connect meaningfully is then indeed your business will grow. So if you're a human being and you loving what you do, or at least find a way to love part of it, I think then we can all listen to that word and create a referral process that does share the joy with everybody. And I think that that's what the goal is.

Yonason Goldson: 47:31

Well, gentlemen,

Margarita Gurri: 47:33

it's been fun. I'm looking forward to as always bumping into you guys again and I said you both the high five. Thank you everyone for joining us on The rabbi in the shrink. If you have questions please post it for us at podcast at the rabbi in the shrink. And you can also go to our website, the rabbi in the shrink calm. Thank you all and may you create a wonderful business that brings you and everyone you know. See you the next time