#49: Mick Mulroy - Value Integrity Over Ideology

Is our society becoming more cultish?

Are we facing the twilight of democracy?

Can individuals change the culture of our society?

These and other critical questions are addressed when Former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for the Middle East Michael Patrick Mulroy joins The Rabbi and the Shrink

https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-mick-patrick-mulroy-31198b52/

http://loboinstitute.org/

1:30  What is integrity?  What does it have to do with being an American citizen?

Doing the right thing even when no one is watching

From its inception, the United States has been founded on the principles of freedom and equality

Integrity = integer

More than peace, harmony

Different people with different ideas connected by a common mission

5:00 A nation’s integrity comes from the character of its people

We need to honor our word for both our allies and our enemies

The way we do things is as important as what we do

7:00 What can we do as individuals?

Associate with people of integrity

The twilight of democracy?

We have a national obligation to live up to our values as a counterweight to countries that don’t share them

10:00 Can we afford to stand up globally for our values?

Even if regime change is a good idea, it often doesn’t work

Diplomacy

Economic pressure and influence?

Action

13:00  What does the man on the street think?

We need to be stronger individuals

It doesn’t matter what we do, since we can’t change things

Many Americans have no real understanding of authoritarianism

Have the courage to engage and promote passionate moderation

The danger of perception influencing reality

21:00 Nuance is messy

People are scared to grapple with complexity or take an unpopular stand

Take time to listen to the other side without responding

Genuinely seek wisdom

26:00 Is our society becoming more cultish?

Cults don’t encourage asking questions

Seek truth by challenging and accepting to be challenged

We surround ourselves with people who think like us, which promotes gridlock

33:00 Both sides need to call out extremists on their own side, not the other side

Value character over policy:

Wisdom, justice, courage, temperance

Surround ourselves with people who will hold us accountable

41:00  The word of the day:  invidious

calculated to create ill will or resentment or give offense; hateful:

offensively or unfairly discriminating; injurious:

causing or tending to cause animosity, resentment, or envy:

Be discriminating without discriminating

Alfred the Butler and the warlord

Transcript

Margarita Gurri: 0:04

This is Dr. Margarita Gurri, Dr. Red Shoe, the shrink, and we have everyone's favorite rabbi.

Yonason Goldson: 0:11

Yonason Goldson

Margarita Gurri: 0:12

And the rabbi and I are delighted to have for the second time, Michael Patrick Mulroy, who is a beautiful thinker. He's a stoic, and he's a true American patriot. He is the former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for the Middle East. Tada. Welcome, sir.

Michael Patrick Mulroy: 0:31

Thank you. Thank you for having me. And happy new year.

Margarita Gurri: 0:34

Well, Happy New Year to you. We believe that your message is key for 2022. What do you have to say about America and ethics?

Michael Patrick Mulroy: 0:45

So I recently wrote a paper along with Adam Piercey. And Don Roberson, two fellow stocks that follow stoic philosophy, I should say. That was about integrity and honor when it comes to the nation. We wrote specifically about Afghanistan, and the way we left Afghanistan, which even if you agreed that we should leave, I think, the way we did left a lot more than should have been done. And then I, you know, that to you to your body, it's your podcast. But if we want to talk about how integrity of a nation should play into how we deal with the authoritarian regimes of the world, if I point that out. And then lastly, I think we need to talk about the extremist movements in the United States and how the average citizen has a role in in pushing back against that.

Margarita Gurri: 1:43

Well, let's start at the beginning. What is integrity? And what does it have to do with being a good American citizen?

Michael Patrick Mulroy: 1:51

So the way integrity in first of all you guys, you mentioned on my store, but this, you know, whether you gain your belief in integrity and integrity system, from a religion from a philosophy of stoicism, or your mom's eyes, I'm thinking we're all on the same sheet of music on what integrity is. And the way I've always defined it is doing the right thing, even if nobody's watched. Right. That's the way my parents defined it, that the way the Marine Corps defined it. And I think that's how most people when you say it that way, understand both components doing the right thing. And then even when nobody's watching is kind of the epitome I think, of stoicism in integrity. So I think that is one of the things about the United States that not only Americans like that people around the world, is we have always been a beacon of freedom. We have always put the promotion of individual liberties, human rights in democracy, as first and foremost in our national security policy. And I think we need to continue to do that.

Yonason Goldson: 3:03

You touched on some really foundational ideas right there. You know, I always come back to our Professor Steven Carter's observation, that integrity capsular integer, which is a whole numbers have integrity means to be a whole person is consistency. Not just promoting ideas, but living them. And you also made a point that it's not enough to do the right thing. It's how we do the right thing. And when we, when we look at all the different facets of human behavior, there are just so many elements that come together, if you I'm going into all sorts of different metaphors right now. But you know, the, the Hebrew word shalom is normally translated as peace. But a better translation would be harmony. And harmony is when all the pieces fit together. A symphony has different instruments playing different notes at different times. But when it's done properly, it fuses together into a single or Kestrel presentation. And I think that really cuts to the heart of what is integrity as an individual and as a people, is we can have different ideas, we can be passionate, we can fight, tooth and nail. But there has to be that sense that we are one people that we have a common eye, a common mission, a common set of values. That's what brings us together that's what makes us successful society.

Michael Patrick Mulroy: 4:48

Absolutely. Very well farewell said Rabbi. So what you said that's what I would say we need to focus on for the new year and you know, it's it's pretty early in the year so there's a lot of people who are they can resolutions and and I think that should be most important resolutions is that we should work together to promote this idea of national honor integrity. Honor sometime is a loaded word. But that's why I'm instead using I even on the paper we use honor that I wrote on Afghanistan. But integrity, because a nation's integrity comes from the actions of its people and the actions of its leaders. When you make a promise to somebody keeping it is one of the core tenants of your integrity, you can't treat anybody. And there used to be this adage that, you know, there's no friend, one foreign policy, I just totally disagree. You need to rely on friends, and they need to rely on you. And whether it's an alliance like NATO, or whether it's a partnership, like we have with, in the case of April, we wrote on Afghanistan, the partners that stood with us for 20 years fighting, you need to be a country of your word. Or that will be remembered by both your allies and your adversaries alike. And I think that is something that we fell far short out during the exit of Afghanistan. And although that decision is made, and those things happened, we have an opportunity to still make it right, to still do everything we can to get the people we promised out of Afghanistan, which is turned into a completely authoritarian, almost dystopian state. And get them here, which is what we promised and resettled the United States. So I know that's a specific thing. But I do think it's going to define in many ways, the way the United States is looked down upon around the world. And as a people, whether you agreed with going to Afghanistan, and whether you agreed with leaving or saying we still did make an obligation to a set of people who fought and by my estimates, some 60,000 died fighting alongside of us in the last 20 years, we still did make a promise to them. Yes, we have an obligation to keep it.

Margarita Gurri: 7:12

We do. The rabbi and I love what you're saying. The reason we started this podcast in the first place, is that we realize that maybe young Americans need a little help, in speaking up the right way, thinking about things in an effective and ethical way, and doing right action. And I'm thinking now maybe you can address that what can each American do an American ally, to help freedom and to help our integrity be the beacons of not only this year, but of our future?

Michael Patrick Mulroy: 7:48

Well, the first thing is voting. And I know that's kind of the answer. Everybody says, But if you believe in what we stand for, and I think most Americans do, then actively seek people that are going to promote that on both sides of the aisle. You know, I'm a non partisan a political person. So I'm not. I'm not here to push any, any side. I'm here to push our side. Right, which is to promote this around the world. I know, we talked about it before the podcast, I think there's an exception, but I don't know the author remains an apple bomb. It's called the twilight of democracy. And it really talks about how the world is lurching back to authoritarianism. Even some people that would turn themselves and maybe others, as intellectuals, are finding reasons to support an anti democratic, authoritarian regime for their own purposes. And it is up into your question, it is up to every American who doesn't want to see that to realize that the United States is the force in opposition that we are the, you know, essential superpower, if you will, to push back against this surge in authoritarian regime, whether it's China, Russia, North Korea, Iran, or just keep going down the list. These are places where individual human rights don't exist. Period, the United States and a lot of our allies are what's going to push back against that and we have an obligation in my opinion, that's why I'm attaching it to integrity. It's our national integrity to be that

Yonason Goldson: 9:37

literally play devil's advocate from let me say that I agree with everything you said, which in fact, I do. But what do I say that, you know, it's a great idea. It sounds wonderful. It just isn't realistic. We can't afford to be the policeman of the world. We can't afford. We have we have to spend money on our problems here at home. We don't want to put our young men and young women's lives on the line. And while it's a nice idea, it just isn't realistic. We have to deal with our own priorities first, what's your response to that?

Michael Patrick Mulroy: 10:17

Well, first of all, Rob, I think we are going to get to the problems at home. So I think that's a that's going to be the next part of our discussion. But I, first of all, I think are Second of all, I think you make a good point. So if we can agree that we should stand for this democracies and individual liberties and human rights, then the question is, what does that mean? Right? Does that mean you become the police to the world, and there's a good argument to say, you know, in the last 20 years, we spent trillions of dollars, and, you know, lawful long lives, and it wasn't that. So I, I'm the first one, to recognize the argument against being the police of the world, as you said. So I think we have to, we have to look at how we do what I just said we should do, which is to be this beacon. The answers probably not going to be to invade a country and try to topple a regime and then create a democracy. One, it just doesn't seem to work. So even if it is a noble effort, it has proven in practicality, not necessarily to be successful. I would argue that we did, even though I was personally against going into Iraq, we have a democratically elected government in Iraq now. And we're still there in support. I would also point out that we still have an obligation when it comes to those who seek to attack us that we need to do things like go into Syria work with people on the ground in Syria to feed a group like ISIS, for example. But I do think we need to look at how we do this going forward, is it that we actively promote democracies, maybe we use our national economic strength to do that? Right. So maybe we start focusing our efforts on on foreign aid and development, on those that are pushing human rights for their people. That's another way of looking at doesn't all have to be military upstanding, we can focus our diplomacy, which should be the number one thing we do way before US military, on promotion of democracy, and our like minded people around the world. The second thing is our economic law. And we can do that by promoting development to aid into society, that, that promote our same values. And then the third, and I think last resort, is action, whether it's military or covert for my background, but that should be the last. But to your point, we should look at how we do this, because it's easy to say, you know, we should, we should do this around the world. But you have to make it fit into practical terms. And that doesn't necessarily mean using our military against every authoritarian dictator. It's not necessarily successful. And it's not, it's not really the right thing.

Margarita Gurri: 13:17

So I have, I've been talking to lots of people, I just did a long car trip, which speaks to my lack of mental wellness, really 20 hours in the car with kids and dogs. But we met a lot of people from all around the United States and even different nations at the different restaurants and stuff. And I was asking about what they thought was important for the year and I even asked, What does ethics have to do with how you live your life this year? I know I looked like a crazy lady. But that's okay. I like to look crazy grandma and Kima wanna she works for me? I got some answers from people from all around the world. It says we need to all be stronger individually. I like that. But then I got some disturbing responses, many from Americans, that it doesn't matter what we do, because what we say no one listens to. And some were saying even like or the issue of wearing mass that we become there we're saying that we become just puppets, and that it's like a communist nation being told what to do, and we have to do it whether we agree with it or not. Clearly, that did not sit well with me as someone who escaped communism of Castro. I didn't fight back. I was there just to listen, Rabbi, I did well, I did not argue. I just had my big ears on listening. And I asked more questions, and maybe they thought I agreed or didn't agree, but I just listened to Nast. What do you have to say to these Americans who say doesn't matter what they do?

Michael Patrick Mulroy: 14:51

So I first started by commending you for listening. It was hard. Thank you. It is it is hard sometimes. Again, I already mentioned I'm an a political person, but I have identified on both sides of the aisle. Some of them are a little further out than I, quite frankly, would have expected. And I do a lot of listening because I if I start talking I'm probably be turned into an argument. Right? So listening to understand their perspective eg obviously not agree with it is important. I would, I would, in that discussion, ask them to do the same. Right, where they can potentially listen to you or somebody, somebody else. So first of all, the Americans, you think we're in some kind of situation of authoritarianism, know nothing of authoritarianism. They've never had the experience that you just referenced of living in communist Cuba, or communist China, or Russia, current day Russia, or a lot of the other dictatorial, dictatorial countries are. So I would just, that's why maybe that's one of the reasons why I advocated reading that book, The Twilight now, democracies, they need to understand that they have a lot more than they think they do. In the United States, they literally have the ability to say whatever they want, even if it's extraordinarily misinformed about the government. I mean, that should tell you, you don't live in an authoritarian state. I mean, right now in China, if you say slapped against the government, your social score goes down, you can't even get alone. If they consider you a threat, just because of your religion, you get incarcerated, there's over a million weekers in what we would call camps. They are camp, they're essentially, in China. So you need to realize that that is the case in the United States. And you may might need to have a two those who think it is a reality check. The other thing I would say to people is, it's easy for the middle, you know, middle of the centrist of the United States, just to cut both sides out and say, you know, just gives me a headache. Like, I watched the documentary that was recommended to me on one of the conspiracy groups, and quite frankly, gave me a headache. I couldn't, it was hard to even get through it. It's an obligation, I think, of those of Americans to, to understand their perspective, and to have the courage to actually talk back against it. I don't mean arguing. But it's easy just to say, You know what, I'm not even going to engage in this. The problem is it's not going away. And there's extremist groups on both sides, the, in the United States, on the far right on the far left, that need to be addressed. Not just because you're promoting bogus ideas, but there are deities are turning into violent action, whether it's, you know, an assault on the Capitol or burning of a police station. That's unacceptable. And as a society, we can, as you both so eloquently said, disagree. And that's the right, you have a right to disagree, and you shouldn't be okay with that as an American, but you don't have the right to conduct violent acts. And that's where people need to stop, start saying, Stop now. And start being more in the stoic terms courageous, because courageous isn't just being a soldier or marine. It is being a civil rights activist. It is being the person that pushes back against those who want to bring us back into a time of which certain people weren't welcome in the United States. That is courage. And that is part of integrity that I think is on every American, as much as it just might give you a headache, and you don't want to engage. I think you have.

Yonason Goldson: 19:00

We pointed out before that courage is the see and ethics. And the courts can take different forms. Courage can be standing up in the face of danger, or objection, confrontation, it can also be standing up, even though it appears that I can't make a difference. And I have the courage to live my integrity to live my values to promote them, even when it seems pointless. And I emphasize seems pointless because I think one of the really serious challenges and I'm getting to the point where I think it may be our biggest challenge is that we have a media that promotes a vision of America as a society of war against itself. And the danger is that can become a self fulfilling prophecy. If it appears that we are divided into militarized camps that absolutely refuse to have anything to do with each other, then that promotes the taking of science. And and I believe I have a friend who's a truck driver. And he says that he stops and he talks to people as you did, doctor. And he said that most people that he meets are good, decent people who don't have extreme viewpoints, who don't want to engage in, in the politics of, of extremism. And if the majority still yearn for that sense of consensus, moderation. Why do we feel like we are on the road to destruction and self destruction. And then the courage to persevere. And to I like to call it the passionate moderation, which doesn't necessarily mean planting a flag in the middle somewhere, it just means moderating our rhetoric moderating our dialogue. Dr. Is there a psychological explanation or approach to interpreting this or suggesting a solution to it?

Margarita Gurri: 21:25

Well, I think that a lot of people like to think about, like you wrote the book grappling with a gray, who wants to grapple with the grave, they don't want to think about things. Gray is messy. So it's better to just think about someone in your past or someone in your present, and follow them, whether they're all the way, one end of the continuum or the other. Whatever color we make those, I don't want to make it black and white, because those are, those colors are tricky. But at the end of the gray continuum, right, all the way nine grand and all the way super great. I think that people are scared to think they're scared to be wrong, they want to be liked. It's a lot of work. And they don't always know who to believe. So we asked you and I were talking to make before we said, so how do we get the information to support decisions and conversations that make sense? Who do we trust with what's really happening in America and

Yonason Goldson: 22:22

globally? Question for me. Yes, sir.

Michael Patrick Mulroy: 22:30

Yes. To the rabbi's point, perseverance was a word from left. So that's a good good Lincoln, I think is a point on the rabbi's comments, and I'll get to them. Doc, the the issue of extremist groups in the United States and the political polarization. Whether you consider it most people consider themselves in the middle, I've noticed, even though you're like, Wow, you're really not. They somehow think they're mainstream. I would only ask everybody, wherever you think you sit, to take time to listen to the other side, you know what it is, you know where to find it. Go ahead and without yelling at the TV, without, you know, just I have to give credit to my business partner, we get a we get the news on because the year analysts, he makes us keep switching from news channels. So we get it all I would, I would publish, I would advocate for people to do that. Listen to the other side. Without common without talking over. One, you need to know what they think. And two, it gives you a different perspective. If you only listen to what reinforces your beliefs, then you're going to get more and more extreme in your beliefs, in my opinion. So who do so Margarita? Who should we listen to? From stoics perspective? You know, they have four main principle principles, and one of them with in wisdom isn't just being a smart person. I mean, yes, it's part of it being you know, intellectual and reading and learning and listening. But it's also the willingness to understand when you're wrong. So if somebody told you something, and it's your cream, you know, sorry, there's my there's my building something in the back of my house. What if you're hearing that Apple,

Margarita Gurri: 24:27

that it was a good a side effect for what you're talking about? Yeah, nobody's

Michael Patrick Mulroy: 24:30

breaking into my room. Brilliant. Yeah. But Wisdom means your willingness to learn new things and accept when what you thought was right, is not. And that is a core of, I think, what would make political discourse in the United States you have to be willing to, you know, it's almost like now, each side of the political spectrum just gives a list of what you should believe and you have to accept Why? I mean, there's very few people that will take a platform from any party or no party at all, and believe everything in it. So why be in the party, why not just decide for yourself on every individual issue? In look at both sides, don't just take it from some, I say talking about on TV, but I guess I'm talking on TV. Don't take it from us just read, listen to a lot of people and and come up to your own conclusion. And don't do it premium. Don't do it based on what particular group you happen to identify, be your own person and be your own thinker. So stoicism is that if the stoicism doesn't tell you what it tells you that you should take all steps available to you to come up with what you think.

Margarita Gurri: 25:51

Well, one thing rabbi and admit, as a psychologist, I had the experience of dealing with people who join cults, which is, to me the total opposite of what we're all thinking is the wise thing to do. So they pick one person with an interesting delusion, or point of view that's not based on reality. They, they get a message from a galactic something, they become somehow a god or demigod, and then amazingly bright people follow them. That to me, is alarming. How does that happen? And I think you both are talking with me about a solution to that. Understand the Colts understand this extreme point of view, that extreme point of view and all the middles. And then somehow, you have to have the courage. Because it's messy, it's scary to really decide, well, what do I really believe? Not just what my family believes, or what the rabbi believes, or what MC believes, but what do I really think and that's hard work. I think that's hard work. So what do you all say to that? What can we how can we provide more courage and more guidance to the people who are maybe ready to take the plunge to see what do they really believe? In view of lots of information?

Yonason Goldson: 27:14

I want to I want to riff on something you said for a second, go ahead. Because when I was in seminary, you know, from time to time, or rabbis would be asked, you know, are you engaging in brainwashing? So one of my rabbis said, No, we don't we don't wash brains, here we dry clean them. And well, it's clever. But when he went on to say is that here, we encourage asking questions. And we don't encourage simply accepting answers. If you don't like the answer, keep pushing. If you understand the answer, keep arguing. There's nothing disrespectful about saying, I don't understand your point of view. If you say politely, or as Doctor, you'd like to say, could you please help me understand better where you're coming from, but it's that willingness to challenge and be challenged. And to your other point, MIT, when you talk about sort of being in lockstep with it with a platform? I think one of the things we talked about this before we went on air, that you know, we don't live in America, we don't live in a true democracy without a democratic republic. And that means that we don't vote for policies, we vote for people. But who are the people that we want to vote for? People who have integrity, because we have integrity, you're trusted. We want to trust our leaders, and we don't. And that's really the crisis of confidence that we have right now. That's why we feel like it's so lost, cause that's where we come ideological extremists because, well, I can't trust the people. I just have to pick a side.

Michael Patrick Mulroy: 29:07

Yes, a lot of points. There are a lot of good points. It's almost a philosopher king kind of concept. So firstly, Doc's point on cults. You know, I'm not even mentioned that group because I was because I don't want to, incidentally, promote them. But I watched this documentary on, I caught that by their couch calculations. If you added all the Lutherans, Methodists and Presbyterians in the United States together. They still outnumber them now. Which is scary. Right? So there's no reason apparently according

Margarita Gurri: 29:47

they left the Catholics out and we like to make babies so this is good. Yeah,

Michael Patrick Mulroy: 29:51

yes, you have Irish component. We do like to make vlogs. I can say that obviously. Not anymore. comparative. But the point being is there's cult. What I think most people would call cults in the United States right now that are significant. And they're having a massive effect on our politics and the stuff they believe. I mean, it's unbelievable. To be offered to go to that way. And I think Americans should educate themselves. But the to the rabbi's. Yeah, I understand how people say, you know, I'm not going to vote for anybody, because they all I think black and I would say, find somebody that does, ask them to run, run yourself, pick the best, because what's happening is that people, some people are just opting out. And the only people that are getting elected are the people that the, I think the extreme Pfizer are voting for. And so we're getting extraordinarily polarized country. Another interesting phenomenon that I learned through ABC News, actually, I'm a security analyst, by by listen to the political analyst, of any United States, people have decided to actually live where people think, accordingly, like them. So if you go back to the 80s, most congressional districts were somewhat split. You'd have you know, 4555, Republican, 45. Democrats. So regardless of what side you were on, or what part of you ran, you still had to pay attention to the 45% network in your party that were in your district. Now, their waist cube was like at 20. Either way, so they don't, they don't even listen to the other side. So you're getting people that have to play to the base of each side. And they tend to be the more extreme sides of the party, both ways. So when they get, again, I'm not a political analyst, but like, I certainly do trust the political scientists have told me this, you're getting those people going to Washington, and then they're, they're going there at complete loggerheads with one another. So they are much more inclined to do nothing than to do anything that would benefit the other side. So how do we change that? Well, we're not going to change the, you know, migration, internal migration pattern of Americans. But I would say, we have to start pushing for people that have integrity, that are going to do what's right for the country, before their own, you know, political future. So, again, I'm tying all this to integrity, where those political personalities are willing to do things that are against their own political interest, is what I count as those with integrity on either side of the political aisle. They should go in there with the idea that they're promoting the policies that they believe in, and that they stated, and if that those policies, for some reason, get them on elected, they should just be okay with that. I just say that I'll get a nother job. That is what I think we should be looking at for our political leadership. And our policy leadership that isn't necessarily the same. The policies, the people who make policy in the US are mostly in the executive branch, and quite frankly, most of them are not elected. They're, they're appointed in their profession. They need to go in there with the idea that the policies that they're promoting support the good of the United States internally,

Margarita Gurri: 33:31

and how can our listeners help these policy? Reviewers and makers, that are going to help us with this internal challenge to to United States and its functioning? To keep away from extreme extremism to remember, they're all part of that beacon of freedom? What can we each do?

Michael Patrick Mulroy: 33:57

So we talked about voting, we talked about speaking out against extremists on either side, and I would love it. If you if you consider yourself on one side of the aisle, then you should talk about the extremists on your side of the aisle. Right? It? I mean, if you want to actually have any say, if you're on the right or left, and you talk about the extremes on yourself, because you will have most more say in that. And then the last thing I'd say is the first crop of credential for anybody you're voting for is integrity. Right? They can be they can be aligned with you and policies, but if they're not good people, good men or women. Find somebody out. Find somebody else. That's what I would say. And if, if you think you are somebody who has the right integrity, and you know, you know it's good place to make a point I practice the stoic philosophy. I don't consider myself the greatest stoic at all. I consider myself in ever trying to improve stoic And I know that's why a lot of people be religious. It's not about being the perfect person, it's about trying to be better. And I think everybody's better off when everybody tries to be better. So if you think you're on that path, then maybe you should look at whether it's, you know, the school board or local city council, or Congress or Senate. Try to be the person that pushes for people with integrity before anything else you don't like?

Margarita Gurri: 35:27

And what are some of the things to look at the Rabba. And I've been dismayed by how we think we see certain things and we identify that this person may not have integrity. So maybe you could make it really simple. What are the signs of integrity or lack thereof? Because I think people miss them. Yeah.

Michael Patrick Mulroy: 35:49

I mean, for me, this, this is simple, because it is it. There's the four principles of sources are wisdom, justice, courage, and temperance. Temperance or moderation is everybody understand when you say the first three, but I like temperance as well, it means not being extreme, it means not being excessive. And, you know, I know a lot of people that that fourth one is the one they're most challenged, to be honest, whether it is an actual temper, or whether it's, you know, over indulging on things, to be quite frank. But to say them collectively, is what they should look for in people that is going to be there leaders, I think is, is what amounts to integrity, right? If you take them all together. So that's, that is what I'm saying they should look for somebody who's willing to, to work together, somebody is willing to understand when they're wrong, and change their perspective. If someone is willing to just say, you know, what, I know, this is wrong, and I'm not going to go along with it, just so I can keep my point. That's courage. That's moral. Right? It's, it's not necessarily the, you know, the Marine guarding the gate, or John Lewis on the bridge courage. But it's basic courage. Right? It's, it's what I think we can all do is say, I identify that this is something that is right. And I'm going to do it, even if you know, for some reason, in terms of my career, you know, again, it's what I'm calling basic courage is not life and limb, it's just doing the right thing, even though it might not necessarily be the right thing for you

Yonason Goldson: 37:30

professionally. We know if we surround ourselves with people who have that type of integrity, then they hold us accountable. And we start expecting more from ourselves, because we want to continue to be welcome in their company. I think it was Tip O'Neill neighbors before that, who said that all politics is local. And I think that part of the I think today all part of our politics is national or even global. We're much more focused on the national level than we are on what's going on in our own backyard. And I think what you're saying make is that that's, that's a good place to start. There is maybe I can't influence a national election. But maybe I can have some influence over what's going on in my neighborhood. Even if I can't affect like, for instance, in my district. My wife in particular, gets fulminating over our representative who doesn't have to care about us, because we're not in her demographic. And so there's no response. There's no interest, there's no explanation. And so, so even below the the the the congressional level, the city level, the neighborhood level, the school board, there are areas where we can have our voices heard. And if I promote a message of integrity, you're giving me two candidates to vote for. Neither one of them has integrity, I will not be forced to vote for the lesser of two evils. I'll vote for a third party candidate. All I'll somehow take a stand. And then when other people hear me say that, instead of saying, Well, you vote third party, that's a wasted vote. No, you reject. You reject a choice, it's not a choice. And if more people hear that, and more of us may start thinking that way.

Michael Patrick Mulroy: 39:49

I agree. And most people that say if you vote, third party, you throw your vote are part of the other two parties. Right? Because if more people vote in third party, we'd have more parties, and you'd have a lot So that's what I would say to that. I think it's a very rational answer. I'd also point out that I totally agree with your point on local, everything is important. Where you can do a lot for your community. That's not necessarily politics. Right? It's it, there's a youth, right? There's a lot of kids that are left out period. Either because their economic situation, or they have a single mother at work all day, and you can do a lot to change society for the better. And you can do it through integrity. And you can because you can promote that when you're dealing with, you know, if you're volunteering at the boys club, or girls, Bobo, or whatever it is that you think is something valuable to do, or coaching or anything like that. So I do think it's important that we do promote, through the political system, those that we think have integrity. But I'd also point out that it's not all about their opinion on national politics, because that's important, but there's a lot more that that you can do, and that is on the local level. And it's, it's also, you know, promoting the value that that I think we all would say we hold true. Wow.

Margarita Gurri: 41:16

Yes, that's amazing. Well, I think we've gotten to the time when the rabbi is going to do a word of the day. And then we'll come back to you, sir. And you will do some final words of wisdom for us. Rabbi, what is the word of the day, sir?

Yonason Goldson: 41:36

Well, the word of the day, I'd like to introduce this with a short story. From one of the great wise men of our times,

Margarita Gurri: 41:43

I love your stories, Alfred, the

Yonason Goldson: 41:45

butler. We're in one of the Batman movies, he, he says how he was in the military in the jungles of Africa. And there's this tribal warlord that they were trying to get to cooperate. And they gave him this big box of jewels to pay him off. So he do what they wanted. And they found that the he just kept doing what he wanted. And they found that the box of jewels had just been abandoned. He didn't even keep the bribe. And he said, some people just want to see the world burn. There are people like that. I don't think there are that many people like that. And the distinction I think one of the problems that we have today is that we vilify people who would disagree with this. If you don't think like I do, you're evil. And if you're evil, I don't have to talk to you. There's no point in talking to you. I don't I shouldn't compromise with you, you're the enemy. And I am justified to oppose you in any way possible. And so the word of the day, is invidious. invidious, which means calculated to create your will, or resentment, or give offense, offensively or unfairly discriminating. So saw this word recently used in an article by David French, who said that there are different types of discrimination. The words, you discriminate, who gets to go into the locker room, males or females? discriminating? Okay, who gets to play basketball for people tend not to be gained interested in the NBA. It's not because there's some sort of a conspiracy or a plot. It's not because we want to discriminate. It's just the nature of the situation. And what we really want to want to we want to object to is invidious discrimination, discrimination for reasons that have no basis. And that, you know, even the word discrimination, we want to be able to discriminate between differences that are substantive differences. And it doesn't make us racist doesn't make us bias doesn't make us this doesn't it doesn't doesn't reward that we'd be tarred with the label of discrimination, to be discriminating to recognize that not everyone who disagrees with us is invidious. Then now we can start to talk to each other. If I see that you have a position that's thought out, that comes from a place of good intentions. Now we can talk now we can understand each other better. And maybe we'll find that our differences are not quite as extreme as we thought they were.

Michael Patrick Mulroy: 44:56

Bravo well

Yonason Goldson: 45:01

So, Mick, thank you for joining us. We really do. We're grateful for your wisdom, your insights. And is there a final thought you'd like to leave us with?

Michael Patrick Mulroy: 45:12

Well, first of all, he happened to be did hear all the noise. Sorry about that. It was literally when we started the my guy that was helping me was nothing showed up. And now he just drove away with like, perfectly dyed bourbon. I guess my my last thing is really to just highlight everything we talked about today. Can you hold yourself accountable? Right, be harder on yourself than you are other people. Listen to him. Challenge and challenge yourself. Try to make a difference. Select people who will promote what we think collectively is the right way to be. Keep your promise as a nation, or we're not going to be able to promote it because people won't believe it. And then have the courage to stand up against those inside United States who want to polarize the country. And take us away from the principles of which were founded upon. So it is all the things I mentioned all the principles that make up the integrity of the person and the country. And I think we all have an obligation to hold ourselves accountable, and to promote those in the nation.

Yonason Goldson: 46:35

I think that's a great message. Because it's easy to point, fingers across the island blame people on the other side. But if I hold myself accountable, and I hold my side accountable, then there's at least room to start working to start solving problems instead of perpetuating them. So thank you for that message. Doctor, what is your last word?

Margarita Gurri: 47:01

Well, my last words of the day, is that I encourage everyone first to look up know, Mick Monroe Roy's website. And I think that if you go anywhere you see behind him is the logo. The wolf, he is not a lone wolf, he is part of a great tribe of individual thinkers is the Lobo Institute, is his website, I urge you to go there. And then I urge you to go back. This is 2022. I know some people say there's no magic in New Beginnings. And I say bah humbug there is because there's an energy of renewal is a do over a fresh start with the rabbi in the shrink, our whole idea is to help all of us, including the rabbi and I and all our guests, think about things ethically, talk about things in ways that further the ethical education and understanding that we all have, and to create opportunities for right action. So I'm going to sign off with everyone to have an ethical 2022. And I started off well, look, I have a rabbi, and I have a patriot who knows how to do policy and think about things I'm off to a good start. I just have to not mess it up. And maybe even make it even better by my effort and my courageous thinking. I urge everyone to have at least 10 minutes a day to think about what makes sense for them to do ethically. And how can they help themselves and others, making sure that the world is a better place? And Americans we have a free country. We have a good start to have a big difference. So let's not mess that up. Until the next episode of The rabbi in the shrink. You can check us out at podcast at the rabbi in the shrinking please send us questions. Everyone be well