The Rabbi and The Shrink

#77: Confronting Injustice without Anger

• Rabbi Yonason Goldson and Dr. Margarita Gurri, CSP

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Why is anger like idolatry?

If anger doesn't translate into behavior, is it still a problem?

Can there ever be benefits to outrage?

These and other highly relevant questions are addressed when The Rabbi and the Shrink investigate the challenge of anger.

Here are a few highlights:

The world was not created to conform with our desires.

We have a responsibility to the world; the world is not responsible to us.

Shouldn't we respond to irresponsible behavior that puts others in danger with anger?

If we can channel anger in a positive direction it can be a force for good.

Anger often is an expression of our own ego.

Are we justified in taking it personally when others show no interest in setting the ethical bar where we've set it for ourselves?

Sister Rita's strategy: assuming responsibility for others.

Arrogance is the death of compassion.

Sometimes, being our authentic selves is not in anyone's best interest.

Civility is the filter through which we allow our authentic selves engage the world.

We're all wonderful; we're all awful. They're both true.

The lesson of the donkey, the rooster, and the lantern.

Margarita Gurri:

Welcome to another episode of The Rabbi and The Shrink. This is Dr. Margarita Guri, your shrink. And my favorite rabbi,

Yonason Goldson:

Yonason Goldson

Margarita Gurri:

the two of us thought we'd put our heads together and talk about anger. Many of the guests we've had on our podcast address issues related to anger, and our reaction to it. So let's talk about it. So Rabbi, let's start with you. Why is anger such a big deal in the world of ethics? What's it got to do with anything anyway? Well, of course,

Yonason Goldson:

my reference point is always my tradition. And the sages make a very interesting observation. They say that anger is like idolatry. Because why don't we get upset? Things are not the way we think they should be. So if we believe in a higher power, then that means either the higher power isn't in control. The higher power doesn't know what he's doing. Or the higher power is off duty. Really isn't isn't there at all. So even if we are not coming from a spiritual perspective, there is a sense that the world was not created to accommodate my immediate desires. How rude. Yes, isn't it convenient? Why doesn't the world just get us at the end? Yeah. Someone said zealot is somebody who's doing what God would want him to do if God understood what was really going on.

Margarita Gurri:

That's very funny. Well, it

Yonason Goldson:

is. But it tells us so much about ourselves. Because the moment life does not conform to our wishes and our desires, we get frustrated, we get resentful, we get bitter, we get angry. And ethics means that we recognize that we have a responsibility to the world. Not that the world has a responsibility to us. Is there a psychology behind that that you can share with us? Yeah,

Margarita Gurri:

so let's talk about anger. First off, what

Unknown:

is anger?

Margarita Gurri:

When I was reading, you recommended a book to me when I asked you about it by Rabbi Avraham, yuckiness. Am I saying his name, right? Sounds right. All right. And the book is Arcos

Yonason Goldson:

said he can? Yeah, yeah. Is that actually the author of the work? He is the presenter?

Margarita Gurri:

Oh, he's the presenter of the stuff. And it's a treasure for

Yonason Goldson:

ancient work that provided nonnamous. Otter author. Yeah.

Margarita Gurri:

All right. So he speaks about what the sages have said. And, and one of the things he says is that angle anger is an evil trait. Well, that's a philosophy that many people have that it's a disease of the soul. So let's talk about what anger is and what it isn't. So anger is a feeling that doesn't hurt anybody, or does it? So that's the first thing. What is anger? If anger doesn't become a behavior, is it still problematic? And where does anger come from? Well, we know that that's actually a complicated question, because anger comes from some brain states. So if we have too much adrenaline, if we have a hormone, hogwash, that that flows over us, we can get angry, if we have too much epinephrine. If we're not sleeping, well, if we have some brain injuries, suddenly, then anger is called to the party, and then anger please come forward. So what is anger? And is it always under our control? So I'm going to say for the sake of ethics, and your view on accountability? Let's assume that from whatever source the anger comes from, there are two parts of anger we need to address versus versus the experience of it. What do we do with the feeling whether we're aware of it or not? And the second is, what do we do with a behavior? So I'm going to pose that both can be harmful. feelings and thoughts can be just as harmful as behavior. But I don't think they're evil. So I know that you sages, and I'm going to include you as a modern day sage you sages love to do to make dramatic statements that anger is an evil trait. Well, maybe it's not an evil trait just by itself. Maybe it can be. But maybe anger is an invitation. So I think anger is the gift that keeps on giving. from whatever source, it invites us to look at ourselves to maybe ask for guidance and support from other cells or from God or Hashem. And also I think it's, it educates us about how we're doing. So we're really angry. It's an opportunity not just to put ourselves down. But to take a moment. We also know that the brain where, you know, there's the amygdala and hypothalamus different parts of the brain that get energized with different memories, experiences, and whatever. And part of that is, we know that it takes time sometimes to calm down. So whether it's something in the amygdala where you have to scratch, what's the emotional center where you're not being logical, whatever it is, we know that it's not like a helicopter, you zoom in and zoom out and get out of anger. It's more like a jumbo jet. It takes time to get there sometimes and certainly time to land from it. So what are your thoughts about the practical aspects of, of anger?

Yonason Goldson:

Well, the book that you cited is the reason I referred you to it. It's one of my favorite works on character development.

Margarita Gurri:

I love it. Yes.

Yonason Goldson:

Here's what he says in the introduction there is that there are no good or bad character traits. Yes, traits or character traits are tools I agree with. And if we think of anger, or let's say perhaps the predisposition predisposition towards anger as a trait rather than a state of being, then it does have its uses. There are times when it is proper to feel outrage. I just saw online today podcaster, Mark MeTree posted a report that was issued by some, I don't know, bored government, something or other, listing the foods that were the best to eat the most healthy to eat. And the third one on the list was something like frosted Mini Wheats are one of those cereals that you don't want your kids.

Margarita Gurri:

I love them. They're terrible, but they're so wonderful. And,

Yonason Goldson:

and he was outraged. And I think rightly so. That here is some official board, giving their sanction to food that anyone can figure out is not good for you. It's it's a perversion, of medicine, of science of research. And it's largely irresponsible. And when we see irresponsible behavior that endangers others, we should get them out. We shouldn't be upset.

Margarita Gurri:

Well, and that's the brain being call to action for the sake of survival and safety. Yeah,

Yonason Goldson:

then the question is, what do we do with it? If we can shell it in a productive way, then in a sense, we're metabolizing, that anger, and we are using it to motivate us to come up with an approach that's not going to be destructive, but it's going to be productive and constructive. If we don't find an outlet, that's when it gets dangerous and unhealthy.

Margarita Gurri:

So I'm glad you said if we can channel it, because unless you have a serious brain injury that's permanent, that might interfere with your regulation of those emotions, and inhibition of certain responses to emotions and stimuli. We can indeed learn how to channel and leverage the power of anger, which is why I think it's the gift that keeps giving it can be very motivating to be angry. And you were talking about then a righteous anger. The problem is, it's so much of our angers, ego involved. I'll never forget one of my first weeks as an adult driving in Miami, I grew up in Miami area, and I'm driving along and I'm going to speed limit because you know, I'm a kid right? Just got my license 16 years old, and 9000 lane highway I'm just exaggerating a bit, but it's a little overwhelming and I'm going to do that. And so the people behind me are beeping their horns giving me the Miami salute, you know, special finger and I'm, I'm later on so mad and uh, my instinct is a slam on my brakes or give it back to them or whatever. And then I started to laugh at myself. I'm thinking about my favorite nun, Sister Rita balm, who said Margarita? Why are you so important? That somehow it is your fault just because someone says it is. And I had to laugh that you know you do what you think is best and let them solve their own problems. And I'll never forget that that I was mad because they should behave better and why are they treating me so unfairly? But it had nothing to do with that it was their problem not mine. I'm gonna go ahead and keep doing my thing. We do get so mad when someone's mad at us which is kind of funny.

Yonason Goldson:

There's an interesting angle here that I know I suffer from and and maybe I can get on the couch and you can help me with this problem.

Margarita Gurri:

I'm on board to the red Big Red Couch.

Yonason Goldson:

You know when we Hold her says ethical people, we should try to hold her stance while we should hold ourselves to to higher standards, and aspire to continuously move that bar upward. Which doesn't mean we're gonna we're gonna write all the time. But it means we get it right all the time. We're aspiring to that. And when we see people around us, who don't appear to be setting the bar anywhere near what the US seems reasonable. I take it personally. Why am I trying to so hard to be a better person, when people around me have no interest in at all that is making? That's an assault on me. And my value of self improvement? And I take it personally. Now, of course, it's silly. I know that the distance from the head to the hardest is the longest distance in the world.

Margarita Gurri:

Until the brain, brain, right,

Yonason Goldson:

but so you know, you want what you just said is we all need our sister Rita. We all need our sister reader to remind us, oral doesn't revolve around me.

Margarita Gurri:

Yeah, I know, she saved my life on more than one occasion. I, you know, I came as a refugee and English was new. And I, I would have big reactions to things at times. And my, you know, I would just feel so sad about why are people doing what they're doing. And, and she told me once the following as well, that she said, what she sometimes recommends we do is thank you for thinking this is all my fault. Yes, I am indeed powerful. It is all my fault, because I have all the power in the world. And not to say it sarcastically but say it kind of, you know, in a gracious way, and I invite you to blame me for this, you know, that kind of stuff. And the way she would do it, you would cancel out and you feel like a fool. But without being made fun of and you'd go here if I missed the boat on that. So I mean, we do take it so personally. So then, is anger always bad? No. And yet, it's confusing the way people talk about even this book that you recommend, which I'm loving, I'm grateful for the recommendation. Anger is an evil trait. I mean, it's such a provocative statement. And I don't think it's an evil trait I think giving into it is I think taking responsibility for nothing is not letting people be human and expecting them to be perfect. Or the rudeness of them not agreeing with us all the time. I mean, how rude, especially when we're right. And we're always right. And, you know, one things that I love about about talking with you is that you and I often disagree. And I like the way we disagree. So okay, why did you get your wrong opinion. And, you know, we don't say it that way, because we're mature and pie with each other, but it's in there. So it helped me understand your opinion, I'll understand mine. And it always informs my thinking and my behavior. I mean, this is the that's

Yonason Goldson:

the key to wisdom is to try to understand why does somebody disagree with me,

Margarita Gurri:

right? And listen, to understand is just such a hard thing to do.

Yonason Goldson:

And then maybe, you know, maybe we can, we can see how what we really have are two different angles on the truth. And that we don't really have to disagree. We just are just coming out from different directions. But to go to your point on anger being an even trade, in my mind is says that the most evil of all character traits is arrogance. And he says that in general, one should go to go to one extreme, go to the other extreme and find a balancing point in between but he says when it comes to arrogance, he says there there is no positive aspect of arrogance. And I

Margarita Gurri:

agree because I think arrogance is the death of compassion. Okay,

Yonason Goldson:

but to finish the thought that I think that our anger is often expression, you've said this, when you said ego, right? What is ego is arrogance, right? That That sense of self importance, that sense of superiority. And my anger is an expression that my feelings of self importance are coming in conflict with the reality that I'm not really as important as I think I and in that sense, it is a manifestation of the most evil of traits, as my mind is reporting.

Margarita Gurri:

Well, I would agree with my mind at ease. I think that makes a lot.

Yonason Goldson:

It's a good default to agree with my monitors.

Margarita Gurri:

Yeah, I used to consult with a school called my mom or the sign I know about that wise man. This is good Catholic girls learning a thing or two along the way. So the issue of anger Many people believe that it is wise and righteous, to have a feeling. And then be honest, authentic, and express it. Well, my dad who was a Freudian shrink, and a funny guy would say it is authentic to pick your nose at the table and eat it. But it's not polite, and it achieves nothing. And so he used to eat, he would make funny things that were child friendly. And so I think that sometimes being our authentic self, is not the goal. I think it's better instead to seek civility, seek compassion, seek to listen to understand, which is one of the things you and I have been working on quite a bit with our podcast is to encourage civility and discourse with the purpose of understanding

Yonason Goldson:

say that civility is the filter through which we allow our authentic selves to I like that. I just came up with that you see that again,

Margarita Gurri:

I'm gonna take that up civility

Yonason Goldson:

forget about forgot it already. So those civility is the filter through which we allow our authentic selves to engage the world. You reminded me of that when I was in seminary, there was a fellow there from New York. And I said to him, as you know what I like about you, you say everything, I think that's funny. And you know, sometimes when you know, it's better not to say something, and the person next to you. Just lets it out. You feel oh, that was I'm so glad somebody said that. But the truth is, we really do have to watch ourselves. And, and not saying I'm being being authentic doesn't mean you say everything you think

Margarita Gurri:

absolutely. And as my father would say to me Margarita, it would have been better to study the fuzz on your knee. And we know that all of the the books on brain science and managing our temper and experiences that conflict with others say that sometimes we need that 1020 30 however many minutes for the hot wash of hormones, that our fight flight. Trigger is inviting us to go and save the world when we don't always know in our brains were seduced with a real threat. And a virtual threat, a threat of the feeling of the heart. So what I always tell everyone is to repeat after me, I'm wonderful. And then it's always fun to have the audience say I'm wonderful. And then I say I'm awful. And they say I'm awful. And now I say get over it. They're both true. And that speaks to the heart of your your whole thing about arrogance. We are all wonderful, we're all awful. And even like Will Smith, who I love at the was it at the Oscars, forgot that lesson he got into being self important. And the stoics would have said to him, that he forgot that there's no difference between a good experience and a bad experience. Good. Good luck, and bad luck is just all something that happens, or modify the love your fate, and make the most of what is happening. He took himself too seriously. And he took over the Oscars with his big bad temper, which we all have big bad tempers. So we can't blame him for having a temper. And yet we cannot be proud of the choice he made. If we were there, we would have not been proud of the choice we made to disrupt something, not only once, but three times you disrupted it. So none of us are important enough to let our temper be the star of the show.

Yonason Goldson:

Yeah, that's probably a good place to wrap it up that we we may feel anger. The question is what do we do next. And sometimes that means we recognize we have to extricate, extricate ourselves from the situation because I'm not going to be able to monitor myself properly right now. But the larger the larger approach is to adopt a worldview, where we recognize that the world is not here to accommodate us. Much better to think of ourselves as here to find our way of fitting into the world.

Margarita Gurri:

And to wrap ourselves around with the goodness remember gratitude of good people in your life. Focus on goodness, don't spend too much time watching the news and reading up on in justices and bad things. I think that we can, we can load our brain and our feelings with goodness. And I think that's one of the solutions. And when in doubt as my mother who says if you're taking yourself too seriously, go go do a good deed for someone No, it's alright. Okay Mama, I will do a good deed. So needless to say we used to polish our neighbours shoes and sweep their Porsches, porches and all that, because we had many opportunities to try and go beyond our anger and tempers and Ill chosen actions and words. You probably

Yonason Goldson:

might have a story I know you'll love my stories. I do love your stories. It's not mine. It's a story from Judaism. So in the Talmud, and I think recently, we made reference to Rebbi. Akiva. Yes. So this is another story about Rebbi. Akiva. He was traveling and it came to a town. And he asked for a place for the night and they told him, sorry, we can't accommodate you. We have no place for you. And you can't you can't loiter, you can't stay in the town, you gotta go. So he went off on the road, and he looked around, and he found a clearing in the woods. And he settled down for the night. And he said, he said a phrase that he often said, he said that everything the Almighty does, he does for the best. And he settled down for the night. And then he had his his, his donkey, and you had a you had a rooster. That was a that was the alarm clock of old. And he had a lantern. And he settled down for the night. And suddenly, there's a noise and a Wildcat came out of the woods and, and attacked the donkey and killed it. And while he was distracted by that, a weasel key out in the woods and killed the rooster, ah, and as he just taking stock of that the wind kicked up and blow out the lantern. So there he is now in the dark in the woods by himself, and he says everything the Almighty does he does for the best. Well, during the night, he heard some horrible sounds, couldn't make it sound fight violence was going on. And in the morning, he discovered that the town had been attacked by marauders. And that the town had been burned down and everybody there and he had been killed or taken, taken hostage. And had he been staying in the town which he wanted. He would have been, he would have been a victim too. And have he kept his head, his dog, keep it around the donkey could have braid and given him away, the chicken could have crawled and given him away the land and would have shown likely would have found him the ones. It says it's as I said, everything the Almighty does he does for the best, all of the things that happen that he thought were terrible. Turned out to save him from a terrible fate. And that when we get angry, talked about feeling foolish. Often that as we feel most foolish is when we see sooner or later, that what happened was actually what was best for us. We just didn't realize it at the time.

Margarita Gurri:

That is so true. whether someone has to move their house because of a flood which happens to a lot of people or they get fired from a job or whatever. I mean, I think this the more faculty, you know, love the faith, and ask, you know, ask what, what is it? You know, again, back to your sister, Rita balm. What is God trying to teach you? And what is he asking you to teach others or to learn enough to teach others so that's good. Well, I think we talked about the overview of, of anger. And that's all we have to say about that for now. Excellent. Thank you. We'll see you on another. Thank you, Rabbi. We'll see you on another episode of The rabbi and the shrink. Thank you for joining us.