The Rabbi and The Shrink

#79: The Bond of Love and Fear

• Rabbi Yonason Goldson and Dr. Margarita Gurri, CSP • Episode 79

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How are fear and love two sides of the same coin?

How do we describe something that is truly awesome?

What are the foundations that allow love to flourish?

These are some of the questions addressed when The Rabbi and the Shrink explore the interplay of love and fear.

Here are the bullet points:

What does it mean to invest love in the people and institutions that fill our lives.

How are zeal and jealousy connected?

Love comes from investment; it's not about what we get, but about what we give.

The Four Loves:

Philia -- family
Eros -- romantic
Storge -- empathy
Agape - platonic

Mary Matalin and James Carville: how a conservative and a liberal can find love

Why love is like a flame

Shalom means harmony, when all the pieces fit and work together

Bravery is not the lack of fear, it is facing fear

Agreeing to disagree diminishes diversity

Engaging respectfully despite profound differences makes us stronger individually and collectively

Margarita Gurri:

Welcome to another episode of The Rabbi and The Shrink. This is Dr. Margarita Gurri, the shrink. And here's my favorite Rabbi

Yonason Goldson:

Yonason Goldson.

Margarita Gurri:

Well, the good rabbi and I have decided to put together a series as you know, on different important emotions, and sources of strength in these difficult times. Let's talk about love and fear today. And one thing we know is we're living in a time of fear. We are in the midst of of serious pandemic. That's been pretty scary. And I think it's caused many people to reevaluate, how to handle fear. And to understand love as one of the most powerful antidotes to fear and the stressors that come from situations that seem beyond our control. The rabbi as you know, he's one of my very favorite thinkers and storytellers, Rabbi, why don't you kick it off with your, your Sage view on love because I love it.

Yonason Goldson:

Well, my view is guided by the sages, so I won't take too much credit for it. But it's very much on my mind as we record because we're just a few days out from Russia Shana, which is not just Jewish new year, but which marks the beginning of what we call the 10 days of repentance, the High Holidays, starting with Rosh HaShana, which the sages described as a day characterized by fear, it's a day of judgment, were judged on the on our actions of the past year to determine the fortunes and circumstances that will be prepared for us for the coming year. And the 10 days repentance culminate in Yom Kippur, which is described as a day of love. So love, and fear are right there together in this 10 days of the high holiday season, which are also called the days all, at all is one of those words, that is a little tricky for us. Because when everything is awesome, how do you describe something that is truly awesome. And what is all? Well, it is in fact, the synthesis, of fear, and love. So it's a slightly different formulation formulation. But really the I think, the same core idea that you suggested, Doctor with fear, or with love being the antidote for fear, but rather, fear and love are two elements of a far more profound outlook. That being in fear means I'm worried I'm afraid of what's in front of me, I'm concerned about the consequences. But when fear is fused with love, then it reaches a higher level of awe. And my experience. In feeling this, I felt this really must profoundly when my family visited Niagara Falls. And they take you out on this little boat and get as close as possible to the falls of the Maid of the Mist, I think they call it and if you haven't done it should be on everybody's bucket list. Because you get very close, and you just feel this truly awesome power. You're not afraid they've done this lots of times, you're not really worried that it is bad's gonna happen. But just that proximity to raw, seemingly limitless power. That's all. And yes, there is that element of fear not to get too close. But there's also an element of love the grandeur, the majesty, that this was created as part of a world that's here for us. And we have had the privilege of living in a world where there is such things as this, will develop the idea of war. But that's the beginning of the interplay between fear and love. I love

Margarita Gurri:

that. When I my favorite philosophers, Lao Tzu and the Dow teaching talks about love and that with true love, let me see the exact quote through love, one has no fear. And some of the research has borne that out. Now, that stated in a in a big way. And obviously fear always exists and, and hopefully we avail ourselves of love and don't misuse it. But the whole point is we know that the brain with love, even just looking at someone's eyes that you love, gives you more oxytocin and helps the amygdala with emotions, and it helps undo any of the negative effects of threats. fear, stress, it's it is awe inspiring is And then

Yonason Goldson:

it is and the truth is the way you're phrasing it, I think is very relevant. Because we have a phrase familiarity breeds contempt. And if you say I mean John Lennon said, All You Need Is Love. And he was right. Well, it's a nice idea. But the truth is that love has to be built on a foundation. Yes, of respect, understanding boundaries, limits, and a sense of concern that there are consequences. To misusing the blessings in our lives. There has to be an element of fear, that precedes the feeling of love. Otherwise love can go out of control it can it can mutate it, can it can turn into it, take the I mean, why do we take our closest relationships for granted? Because we we lose that sense of trepidation we become too comfortable, we become too secure, complacent in what we have, we don't appreciate it, and we don't treat it properly. And therefore, love does not manifest even when it seems to be the driving force in our in our relationships, unless it's predicated by that constant conceptual fear.

Margarita Gurri:

I agree. And back to the my favorite book that you recommended, because she could you say the name for us,

Yonason Goldson:

or Hasidic Kim, the, the ways of the righteous.

Margarita Gurri:

And I love that, and it has a whole bunch of traits, and then talks about them. And one of the thoughts that was shared in this book from the sages is that the biggest trait that are the trait that has the biggest impact on action is indeed love. When employed by for the sake of good, it's so powerful, but equally, when it's misused and employed for evil, then it is more evil. So it's like, it's like the, the that pivotal point that if you use it for good, yay, and of use it for bad Whoa. And I think that one of the things I've seen when people are afraid, is they begin to confuse need codependency lost with love. And then they misuse their power over other people to do things that are not in the best interest of both individuals or the family or greater good or the organization. And I think that's one of the things we've been seeing when, when we're afraid many people forget to invest in love for the greater good, or even for the good of just the primary relationships, that that hold us accountable for better life.

Yonason Goldson:

I like that word accountable.

Margarita Gurri:

Because I know you do. It's a good word, isn't it? Yeah,

Yonason Goldson:

it has to be an element of love. I mean, what you're describing is really very powerful. And in Hebrew, there's a word Kena, which translates as jealousy, or as zeal or passion Hina Kena k i n a H it would be an English.

Margarita Gurri:

Thank you. Kena. And

Yonason Goldson:

it's a warning, that extreme emotion can be very good or very bad. And we see it in we see it in politics, certainly. That you know, there's no one more dangerous than a true believer.

Margarita Gurri:

Isn't that a zealot? Yeah, if you if you open up the gates for one point of view, then you close the ears and you close the heart.

Yonason Goldson:

Exactly. And but when you when you get to the essence of love, I always go back to to Hebrew etymology, etymology whenever I can. That the word in Hebrew is I have a H AVH. I have a and it comes from the root I have which means to give. When you give when you invest in a person, an ideal a community, inevitably you come to love the object in which you have invested. This is why parents inevitably love children more than children love parents, because parents are the givers in the relationship. And children are the receivers and when did children give back sometimes they give back later in life, but most often they give back to their own children. They pay it forward with the love that they pass on to their own children. And so part of the problem in our society is that we've got it backwards. We think that love is all about what I get. And really, it's just the opposite. It's all about what I give. What is one of the Beatles say we quoted John Lennon a minute ago that they the The love you love you take is equal to the love you make. I think that was it, something like that.

Margarita Gurri:

Yeah, there was there's it doesn't always add up that way, because it depends on us and how much we put in. Well, and it depends on the other person's ability to give or take. And sometimes people are stuck in their ability to either receive, or to give. And sometimes it's permanent. But luckily, most times it's temporary. And, and we can push our way through it with enough support and reflection. It's interesting. So now that brings us to them, the Greeks, the Greeks talk about the four loves, and it's Philia, which is the friend bond. We have arrows, which is romantic love with or without sex. Store j, the empathy bond, for those that, you know, in an empathy versus compassion, as you put yourself in other place, and you had the courage to really put yourself at risk by feeling their feelings good and, and powerful feelings or destructive and scary feelings. So they weren't adopted the unconditional God love.

Yonason Goldson:

Yes. What was the third one? storagee? I'm not sure I'm saying

Margarita Gurri:

it, right. What is the empathy bond? And I think it's, it's a powerful one. And I think sometimes, what we're missing is that, because it takes a lot of courage, to have compassion, let's say there's a continuum of compassion. You're very much keeps us in, let's say, the continuum is here. And this is compassion. In the middle, empathy here on this side, though, is lack of interest. Compassion is is dead center. This is something I've created. So it's right, because I made it up, you know. So if you're having compassion, you have to have the courage to push through to true empathy. That's been contributing to you. And I talk about the canceled culture that's been going on, where people, if they don't agree politically, are no longer friends or family. We're canceling people out, because we don't have the courage to truly listen, to understand. And we want to bully people, or scare them or blackmail them emotionally into agreeing to our point of view or to doing our needs. We see that with couples all the time. If you love me, you would, whenever that you know, fill in the blank. And that is not love. That's emotional blackmail.

Yonason Goldson:

Yeah. And then this idea that, you know, you're talking about politics, which is, of course very much on our minds that the the political divide is getting wider and wider, and the two sides are unwilling or incapable of talking to each other. You know, a couple of my heroes today are James Carville and Mary matalin. He was one of Clinton's advisors, and is very, very left wing. And she's very conservative. And they have a successful marriage.

Margarita Gurri:

And their love story.

Yonason Goldson:

Yeah. And then they you know, they talked about at the end, it's inspiring, because we can be very, we can have very different outlooks on life. And this goes back to the word I have I mentioned that the root is from heart, which means give, but it's also related to the word la Hava, which means flame. So what is a flame? What's the shape of a flame, a flame is brought to the base, and then tapers to a point. And that is symbolic of a successful partnership or relationship, that people can be quite far apart from each other. We say that opposites attract. And that's for a good reason. Because the best partnerships are between people who are different from one another.

Margarita Gurri:

And so you're talking about not just love partnerships, but business and community partnerships.

Yonason Goldson:

Exactly, exactly. I mean, love does not have to be romantic I think app I think the the sages example of the most profound love is between David and Jonathan. And there's nothing romantic there. But when two people are very different, and it tapers to a point, they have a common sense of purpose. They have common core values. They may have different ways of getting there. But they want the same thing in life, for the world, for each other for everyone that allows that their their differences become a source of strength, instead of a source of division.

Margarita Gurri:

I think that's what makes our partnership strong. We're very different people. You're, you're a white rabbi, and I'm Hispanic, Catholic, Cuban. We have very different points of view, but we have very similar endpoint goals. And I think that that is been one of the sources of strength for our growing understanding of various issues. I love disagreeing with you, I always learned something.

Yonason Goldson:

Well, and that's what the whole, I think that's missing a lot in the in the conversation about diversity, we it is being a lot about checking boxes, rather than about the benefits to all of us from engaging in different points of view, understanding different points of view, seeing things the way other people do having that empathy, not because you're going to change my mind, or I'm going to change yours, not because you're entitled to this, or I'm entitled to that. But because a team is made up of different people doing different jobs working together in harmony. And that's the Hebrew word shalom, which is translated as peace. It really means harmony, means all the pieces working and fitting together and fusing into an ultimate unity.

Margarita Gurri:

I had an interesting conversation, I have a friend, you know, her Libby Kisner. And she's a woman of faith. She's Orthodox, she lives in Israel. And she and I are dear friends. One of the things that she and I were talking about was our, in our opinion about various topics that we know we would disagree on, whether it's a gay marriage, or education for women, or whatever, no, she and I agree on education went for women, but we have the most interesting conversations because we really care about each other, we will never agree on this issue. You know, and I'm all for love is love. I mean, I didn't grow up that way, being, you know, growing up that certain things were bad or evil or whatever. But I have a different point of view now. And it's been really lovely. Being able to talk to her about why we see this, and how we see it, and what would be the impact. And I think it takes a lot of courage for her not for me, takes a lot of courage for her because she could get criticized. And I even you I've asked does it cause you any social or political issues for you to deal with me since I'm Christian? And since I'm more liberal than you? Does that cause you any, any pain? Does it put you in peril, in terms of your social standing, and you have had the courage to go past fear, to lead it and build something that can help others discuss these issues in an ethical, honorable way?

Yonason Goldson:

And you know that, it doesn't mean that there is no fear?

Margarita Gurri:

Of course not.

Yonason Goldson:

The fear is put in its proper place. And, you know, we had Scott Mason on our podcast a while back. Yes, we had I asked him, I asked you and I asked him if he was willing to have a conversation about how it's possible for someone come from a biblical point of view, can have a can engage in and have a cordial relationship with somebody who's gay. And and he was very excited to the prospect. And we had that conversation, which our listeners can go go look up. But he asked me, when I proposed, he said, Could you Could there be any backlash against you? Yes, having this conversation with me? And I said, Yeah. And he said, well, and there could be some backlash against me for having a conversation with you. Indeed. And we went ahead and you know, just, I, when when we were done, I sent I sent the video to the rabbi, my synagogue is pretty seriously, in the what, what, what the media would call the ultra orthodox camp. And he loved it. He loved that we were able to have that conversation respectfully. Well, that's true. But yeah, without apologetics, and it's not even agreeing to disagree. I think that that doesn't frame it properly.

Margarita Gurri:

I agree with you, I think diminishes it. Yeah.

Yonason Goldson:

I think we do disagree.

Margarita Gurri:

I think it's agreeing to understand or to understand. That's,

Yonason Goldson:

yeah, that's the point that you were making earlier, Dr. Burton, we want to understand each other better, in order to be able to empathize, to see the humanity in other people. And the fear gives us a certain respect, it sets boundaries. And it allows love to flourish. That sense of common bond that common we're all human beings, we're all created in the image of God. We all have our our quirks and our shortcomings and and our blind spots. And yet, by working together by coming together, we can we can all become much greater than the sum of our parts.

Margarita Gurri:

That's for sure. You know, in my in my work with clients, and most recently, sometimes I do, couples weekend's retreats and or I'll work with teams in the top Book of Love comes up. But the biggest deficit that I have seen in many groups is self love. Many people have been scared to love themselves, until they perceive they hit certain metrics for success, or for for being good enough. And I think that's backwards. I think we have to know I mean, I'm Catholic. So I know that, you know, God made you the way you're supposed to be. So of course, you're supposed to love yourself and quarks, and all those are all the gifts. In fact, without the weirdnesses that we have, I mean, you wouldn't be special. And that's often the gateway to being amazing. And to risking excellence is to look at what's weird or different about you and go that route. So I'm going to urge everyone listening to say, what are you doing to build yourself love, but not at the expense of others? And what are you doing to use that self love? Help yourself, listen more kindly, with more civility

Yonason Goldson:

to others. And that message is right there in the starting point of it all. Love your neighbor as yourself, love your fellow as yourself. First, you have to love yourself. Because if you don't, you're not capable of loving anybody else. We agree on that.

Margarita Gurri:

Well, I think we've hit the topic of loving fear. In our quick little episode. And Rabbi, it's always it's a pleasure chatting with you on these things. If you guys have questions or comments, please reach us at the rabbi and the shrink.com. We have a place for comments there. We'll see you on another episode of The rabbi and the shrink. Thank you for joining.

Unknown:

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