#78: The Fear of Fear Itself

What is the difference between rational and irrational fear?

How often does fear sabotage our success and set us up for failure?

How can unfounded fear lead to unethical decision-making?

These and other questions are tackled when The Rabbi and the Shrink tackle the topic of fear.

Here are the highlights:

FEAR: False Expectations Appearing Real

Why are we so afraid?

How much of irrational fear is rooted in ego?

Don't let fear stop you from doing what's right.

Courage is facing fear, not the absence of fear.

There's the fear of "no," but also the fear of "yes."  Which is more debilitating?

We need a "board of advisors" we turn to when we are paralyzed by fear.

Don't be afraid of failure, since failure is the best teacher.

Reframe fear as excitement and eagerness.

If you're not nervous, you're not ready.

Churchill:  Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm.

NASA:  Failure to learn from failure is not an option.

Teddy Roosevelt: Not the critic but the man in the arena.

Silence your inner critic and surround yourself with people who will support you through your successes and your failures.

Risk greatness!

Transcript

Margarita Gurri: 0:03

Welcome to another episode of The Rabbi and the Shrink. This is Dr. Margarita Gurri, your shrink, and my favorite Rabbi,

Yonason Goldson: 0:11

Yonason Goldson.

Margarita Gurri: 0:12

Well, the rabbi and I are going to address an issue that is hard for people to think about and face its fear. It's been quoted as the culprit for many of our bad choices. And as the hero in motivating many of our good choices, Rabbi, let's start off with you. Tell us about fear and ethics.

Yonason Goldson: 0:36

Well, there's a there's an expression I heard, I'm sure you've heard it. Don't know where it comes from. But they see fear as an acronym. I think it's false expectations appearing real. No, I haven't heard. I think I got it right. But the, you know, another one of our great philosophical works, the path of the just by Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzatto, about 300 years ago, he says a phrase that is always stuck in my mind. He says, there is fear, and there is fear. He means there are things that are really scary. If you're, if you're walking through the jungle, then you hear the lion's roar, that's a good reason to be afraid. If your wife your your car breaks down, or a really bad part of town, that's a reason to be afraid. If a person gets a diagnosis of a terrible illness, I mean, these are all legitimate reasons to be afraid. And that's one part of the discussion is how do we deal with legitimate fear? But I think perhaps the more relevant part is how do we recognize when we have created irrational fears in our own minds, because then we're, we're harming ourselves, we're causing ourselves all sorts of psychological often physical problems, for reasons that are of our own making. And that's where I think we, we, we really get ourselves in a lot of trouble perceiving, reasons to be afraid, that prevent us from doing things that are in our own best interest.

Margarita Gurri: 2:26

That was that was very well put. I think, you know, we we recently did an episode on anger. And one of the things that I know is anger is almost never one of the first emotions, we default to fear. I mean, we default to anger. So let's say we're really afraid, well, it's easier to be angry than afraid. It feels better, it feels stronger. And it's a reactive response. So let's take fear, I think often feet with fear. That's not legit. We're borrowing trouble. The What if the What If, as my twin sister is very funny, she say, it's not time to be it's not time to be upset about it. It's not time to worry about that. It's not time to be afraid of that yet. i The time will come and she'll say, it's not time yet. And I, I think the whole idea of fear is, so many of us choose lives that are less than amazing. Because we're afraid of something afraid of failing, afraid of succeeding, afraid of looking foolish. Well, as our children always tell us, we look foolish anyway, right. So may as well go for it. You never know how foolish and unwise and, and ridiculous you are until you have children of various ages. And they're very quick to inform you. Very humbling. And you learn a lot. Once they get older, they realize how brilliant you are. But then they have kids. So you know, the cycle continues. We can never, we can never get too overwhelmed, but the whole idea of fear stopping us. And I think that the difference between a real fear and irrational fear is sometimes just the timing and how we plan on handling.

Yonason Goldson: 4:10

Yeah, and my ethics, you know, and this is related really completely to answer your question previously, that in my ethics keynote, I talked about the three enemies without ethics and number two is fear. Because when we are afraid, you

Margarita Gurri: 4:23

know than the three of them because I don't know if everyone see they should see your, your keynote, but what

Yonason Goldson: 4:28

are the three need to see a live I can't give away the story. Oh, well, right

Margarita Gurri: 4:31

to have to do it. So number two is the enemy. Okay.

Yonason Goldson: 4:35

But we'll, we'll go we'll get there. We'll get to them eventually. But number two, the sphere that you mentioned the fear of looking foolish. That's big. I mean, how often do you know students are nervous students, you have a question you're afraid to ask it. Because you thought well, nobody else has asked it. So I must be the only one that question and I'm afraid of looking dumb. And then if someone then somebody else asked it and as the sigh throughout the room because everybody had that question. Their fear of in business, work employment is fear of exceeding one's authority. There's fear of getting in trouble. There's fear of looking incompetent, I ask for help. And these are all ways we set ourselves up for failure. Yes, we fail in doing or supposed to be doing and doing what we're supposed to be doing is, is ethical. If I take a job, it's my job to do the job. And that means if I need help doing the job, it's my job to ask for help. And when we're afraid of how we'll look how we'll be seen of what might happen, then we are we are not allow ourselves to do what we're supposed to be doing. And so the answer that I give is that the the the secret for combating fear is to fight fear with fear. Because we're only looking at one side of the equation, all the what ifs. If I do X, or don't do X, what about the what ifs. The other way if I default to inaction, if I take the easy path, because the easy path is very often not the right path. And if I can look at both sides, at least what I can do is start to restore a certain amount of, of equilibrium to my decision making. Alright, so now I've got two things I'm afraid of. And if they keep they balance each other, now I'm in a frame of mind where I can start looking at them more objectively.

Margarita Gurri: 6:43

And the first thing from the psychological point of view is to ask yourself, what is the truth of this fear? Because some fears are very realistic. For instance, some workplaces are not psychologically safe, you cannot question things, you cannot point out problems. And you have to have the courage and your own ability to ask,

Yonason Goldson: 7:05

who's fear? Is this? Is that the company's

Margarita Gurri: 7:08

fear for people to give input? And so I should be afraid because I could get fired? If I give my opinion? If so, is there a way to give my opinion in a way that doesn't sound like an opinion? But sounds like their idea? I mean, they're, I think we have to ask ourselves, is this mirror them? If it's them, you have a whole bunch of different brainstorming. But if it's you, then it's easier to address. Luckily for me, I have a big brother. And so I don't have to worry about being afraid of looking foolish or feeling foolish. He he did plenty of that. So I survived that. Thank you, Joe. I love my big brother. But, you know, knowing what is my capability to look foolish, without having to feel too ashamed? Or too scared? That is the first thing, how much of it is me? Why are we so afraid? What are we afraid of?

Yonason Goldson: 8:07

I think we're going to find a theme here because it came up in our discussion of anger that it cannot be traced back to ego. Yes, I

Margarita Gurri: 8:13

think so

Yonason Goldson: 8:14

I think that we're going to find a lot of the negative character traits have their roots in ego.

Margarita Gurri: 8:22

And you have to think about what really is ego. And you know, in Freud system, ego was a balancing of the what we want the ID, what feels good, what you want in the moment. And then the super ego, the shoulds of it all. So ego you can think about is the practical problem solver, the mediator, but also I think the innovator lives in the ego. So you have to have the courage of going beyond what feels good. And you have to go beyond the courage of people censoring you, as they say, this is not the way it should be. To innovate or to

Yonason Goldson: 9:01

pardon? No, I heard somebody say once, like, I can't cite the stories, but you got to think of as an acronym for elbow God out. Yeah. And that, again, without getting into theology of it, the idea that I am accountable to a higher authority or a higher standard or higher set of values, and that in the in the moment right now, when there is this person, or this situation and are afraid how people are going to see me. Right? That pushes out that sense of higher values, higher authority, higher standards. And that's you know, it's it's it's the amygdala is taking over. And I'm so concerned with what people will think what people will say, and these maybe people are never going to see it again. Then maybe people don't even care about

Margarita Gurri: 9:57

Yeah, I mean, recently, I'm training as you know, from pilgrimage in El Camino de Santiago in Spain. And recently, I bought a big old backpack that's going to carry 2025 pounds. So I can do 512 miles if I last that long. And so I'm training. So even me this grown up, you know, old lady with the silver hair power. I'm putting on this backpack going to the gym thinking I'm gonna look like such a dork. Well, luckily, I am a dork. So I already have lots of practice. But even I who've embraced my full dorkiness as a benefit and a liability, both aspects of it. I had to take some deep breaths of saying, I'm embracing my inner dork, I'm going to look like a total jerk. And you know what happened to people came up to me and said, What are you training for when we got to talk in and some of them even kept me company, walking in the people who thought it was me for doing a Dorcy Dorcy thing kept it to themselves. So some good things happen. So worrying about fear stopping you is normal. But letting it stop you not so good. So I asked everyone out there, what is your fear right now? What? What fears are stopping you from being the best version of yourself? Being the best love partner, parent and neighbor, best friend, teacher, whatever. What's stopping you? And why? And have the courage to look at fear in the face? And look at all of the possible brainstorm, what are all the things you can do with the sphere, good or bad. And then choose some that might be not only doable, but that might be of service to you and others. That's what I would ask you to do pick a fear and brainstorming.

Yonason Goldson: 11:48

I think two of the most common fears, we look across the board, there's the fear of No. If I asked for something, I won't get it. There's also the fear of Yes. If I get it, maybe I won't be up to the task. And so we live in a kind of limbo where we don't take chances. And we don't give ourselves opportunities. And we avoid the pain of anticipating, I should say we avoid the anticipated pain. But we don't allow ourselves to to get the rewards.

Margarita Gurri: 12:35

We don't and I think sometimes the rewards are long and coming because we try something and doesn't work. So effort. One way we can sabotage our effort in the face of any fear is to try just one thing, and then let it die. So you have to get up and try it again and get up and try again. But I also think we can create a course of advisors that can enjoy our failures, and help us plan our successes. And you know, my father would often say at the table, what's the biggest mistake that you either did today or saw? And what did what happened with it. And he was trying to encourage us to take risks. You know, it's kind of interesting. So our attitude about failure. I vote that you get excited about it and learn from it. And if you don't know what to do with it, call somebody who's wise and positive. So another way you can sabotage yourself is call somebody who is putting us down or is very negative. Pick your advisors

Yonason Goldson: 13:39

carefully. I heard something not so long ago that that's kind of interesting. I think it applies here. If we think of fear as perhaps a form of anxiety, yes. And there is a physiological reaction to anxiety. There is? Well apparently it's the same physiological reaction as that to excitement. It can be yes. So in our own minds, what we can do is talking about reframing is that if I feel anxious, I feel afraid. I don't know what's coming. If I can convince myself I tell myself that, well, this is an opportunity, an opportunity for growth. It's an opportunity to learn, it's an opportunity to experience the unexpected, and try to frame it as something that's worth that's worthy of excitement. So now I'm taking the same physiological response and channeling it in a positive direction, where it can become empowering, instead of channeling in a negative direction or it's going to become debilitating.

Margarita Gurri: 14:46

My friend Dave Bricker would say turn nervous into service. And I always liked that that it's true. And my coach used to say, if you're not nervous, you're not ready. that you have to have the hype energy because it's your adrenaline that you're getting ready to compete. And some people avoid competition, like they avoid the plague. And I think being afraid of coming in second, third or last is ego. It matters more what we learn with the race or the preparation of it. We don't have to win all the time. I don't know about you, Rabbi, but I I've got a lot of great experiences of failing and failing greatly.

Yonason Goldson: 15:35

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I frequently quote, you've heard me quote, Winston Churchill, that success is going from failure to failure with no loss of enthusiasm. And then the truth is that it's not a failure, unless we fail to learn from. Yeah.

Margarita Gurri: 15:55

And if we stop ourselves from continuing the journey, or if we blame other people, I think those are the only real failures.

Yonason Goldson: 16:03

Yeah. And in fact, at the recent National Speakers Association, Association conference, we both attended one of the speakers there, I could pronounce his name, right. Michael C. anelli, I believe, one of the directors of NASA. And and he talked about the the culture that they had of failure is not an option. Except it doesn't work. Because sometimes you fail. Yeah. And so he has reframed it as failure to learn from failure is not an option. That is so much better failure. So it's so powerful and so wise.

Margarita Gurri: 16:41

So many people avoid that paradigm by not letting themselves fail. I mean, we all know people who, since high school have stopped learning new things. Yeah, they've decided they're done. And if they want to choose a life like that, I think that's to me, obviously, their choice, but I always wish them well and look forward to them having the spark of courage or curiosity that would help them start learning again,

Yonason Goldson: 17:09

there's a wonderful quote by Theodore Roosevelt, and I don't have it handy, but he talks about the difference between a critic and the Man in the Arena. Yes, it's covered with dust and sweat, and experiences, glorious victories, shattered by defeat, which makes his life so much more rich than the one who lives in that great Twilight, of knowing neither victory nor defeat.

Margarita Gurri: 17:37

And we know that people have had some experiences of challenges in their life. Not only are better problem solvers, and critical thinkers, but they have more compassion for others. And therefore, they're more likely to create a collection of friends and loved ones that add great value to their lives. So fail, and you can actually invite more love in your life. And I think that's a really good motivator to our allow ourselves the the pain of failure over and over again.

Yonason Goldson: 18:08

And surround yourself with people who will support you through your failures. Yes, and help you learn the lessons that they teach.

Margarita Gurri: 18:18

Yeah, and too many people try and support someone by blaming other people. Oh, that wasn't you. That was the boss, none. How did you contribute to the failure? Isn't in every environment, there's a way to win some environments. So the only way to win is to be unethical. And the only solution is to either try to change the system, or try to change the environment that you're in.

Yonason Goldson: 18:38

Yeah. And when I was teaching, I would never fail a student who was trying mean, either. Um, I wouldn't give them a great grade. I wouldn't give them a phase. But I would I would never, you haven't failed if you've done if you put in a good effort. And when I had to fail the student, I would say you earned that F.

Margarita Gurri: 19:04

Yeah, I mean, I used to teach college as well. And some kids would have such furious and creative minds would have learning challenges. And I would create a different curriculum for them. How can they show me that they've learned this? If they don't write and synthesize their ideas? Well, if they're crippled by anxiety and can't do a presentation from the class, how can they show me what they've learned? And the kids did such a good job of teaching me different ways of showing success in the face of

Yonason Goldson: 19:41

have different learning styles. The beautiful thing about it, you have you not only taught them the material, you not only allowed them to demonstrate a knowledge of the material but you you you taught them that it's possible to find alternative ways of succeeding when there aren't when there are obstacles that might appear to be guarantees of failure. And so help them conquer the fear. Yes, of whatever their particular challenge is. And

Margarita Gurri: 20:24

they taught me. Yeah, they taught me more than I taught them. I'm sure this goes. So my question then to all of you in the listening audience is, what fear are you facing right now? And what are all the things that are going to help you use the fear to invite greatness, risk greatness, as my father used to say? And what are the obstacles in your way, including habits, attitudes mindsets that you have, or maybe negative people that you're inviting into your world? I think we, even if they're family, we can certainly put them in a loving area without having them be our advisors. So ask yourself, Where is your fear and what you're going to do about? You have some final words, Rabbi.

Yonason Goldson: 21:12

I don't know you wrap that up such a nice bow, I think. Well,

Margarita Gurri: 21:15

thank you, sir. All right. This is the rabbi on the shrink and we've been addressing fear. And looking forward to hearing your comments on what are you doing with your fear? What are your solutions, and maybe new thoughts that we didn't present? Thank you and join us for another episode of The rabbi chemistry.

Unknown: 21:36

Thank you for listening to the rabbi and the shrink everyday ethics unscripted to book Dr. Red Shoe, Dr. Margarita, Guri, or Rabbi Jonas and Goldson as speakers or advisors for your organization, contact them at the rabbi and the shrink.com. This has been a doctor Red Shoe production