The Rabbi and The Shrink

#80: Ode to Joy

• Rabbi Yonason Goldson and Dr. Margarita Gurri, CSP • Episode 80

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How can we be happy if we don't have an accurate definition of what joy is or where it comes from?

That's the question we address in this episode of The Rabbi and the Shrink.

Here are the bullet points:

Eight words in Hebrew translate as joy or happiness -- all have root meanings of growth or progress.

Budding -- the joy of potential about to be brought into the world

Blossoming -- the joy of growth about  to reach fruition

Satisfaction -- absolute fulfillment, which succeeds joy, but is often followed by letdown

In the West, we conflate happiness and pleasure.  Pleasure is not a source of happiness, but distraction from unhappiness

Pleasure and pain are not opposites; they go hand in hand

Joy contains an element of the transcendent

Is joy a function of purpose or of connection?  Or are these really the same?

Find joy in correcting our mistakes

Happiness is a choice we make that emerges from gratitude

If I'm entitled, I have no gratitude and nothing to work toward

Achievement without struggle can be deeply dissatisfying

Happiness comes from choosing the things that matter most and relinquishing the things that matter less

We have to let go of pettiness if we want to attach ourselves to nobility

Investment is not sacrifice; maturity is recognizing that we can't have everything

Don't be a monkey trapped by its own unwillingness to let go

What's in your monkey trap?

Margarita Gurri:

Welcome to another episode of The Rabbi and the Shrink. This is Dr. Margarita Gurri, the shrink. And here's my favorite rabbi,

Yonason Goldson:

Yonason Goldson.

Margarita Gurri:

And today's topic is joy. Oh to joy, I can just hear it in the background. The rabbi in our are talking about a variety of different feeling states and blessings that can help us on our path, leading amazing lives of excellence and ethical richness forever. I talk to us about joy, sir,

Yonason Goldson:

I would love to and this is also on my mind, we recently recorded a conversation about fear and love, because we're approaching High Holidays Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur war. And then those days are immediately followed by the festival of Sukkot. So Sukkot let's call the festival Tabernacles. And that is described by the sages as a season of joy. And so it's very much on my mind right now in some minds of Jewish people right now. Now in in, in Hebrew and biblical Hebrew, they're eight words that all translate as some form of joy or happiness, and they all relate to some form of growth or progress. And I'll start off by by sharing two of them. One is the word Simcha which is phonetically related to a root meaning to bud and another is the word Sawsan which, which has the meaning of blossom. So if you think about going out to your garden in the springtime, and you're looking at your rosebush, and it's been dormant through the winter, and then the leaves are starting to come back, and then you see the first bud. And you feel this surge of emotion. This is why you have the rosebush to produce the flower. While the flower is not out yet. The bud is potential joy is the sense of potential that is about to be implemented. So it's about you're about to embark on a journey on a mission with a purpose. And then as you work your way through that, it blossoms. It comes into being and as the flower blossoms that's a different manifestation of joy. You're approaching the fulfillment of, of your desire of your purpose of your mission. Now, what's interesting is that when that mission or purpose is fulfilled, there's this momentary elation of satisfaction, but then it's often followed by a kind of a depression, a letdown. You're reading a really good book, you're watching a really good movie, you listen to a wonderful song, you get to the end, and it's over. Now what where do we go from here? So that's not joy. You know, we seek satisfaction, but satisfaction is a it's a double edged sword. Joy is the is being involved in reaching and attaining a meaningful purpose, that is going to give us satisfaction. And being involved in that process, is what is ultimately the source of genuine happiness and joy.

Margarita Gurri:

So that goes to the heart of a lot of conflict in various researchers and philosophers. And I'll just put out the questions and then we can discuss them. Is happiness a choice? is joy choice. is joy available to everyone? Or is it predicated on good deeds or good thoughts? The whole idea of deserving joy and happiness is an issue that has been very controversial. So let's go back to that, but that potential is that been available to everyone?

Yonason Goldson:

It is but not always in the way that we have come to expect it. In, in in modern society in Western society. I think our biggest problem is that we conflate happy happiness and pleasure. Yes, we do. And pleasures, great. Ice creams, wonderful. sensual pleasures are part of life and should be enjoyed.

Margarita Gurri:

Well, I'm getting dark juices on my foot right now. So yes,

Yonason Goldson:

I can help with that. But it's not there's nothing joyful because what's the evidence? Same thing we just talked about. You finish the bowl of ice cream, you finish the the chocolate bar, you you finish the central pleasure that you're you're reveling in. And what do you have? What's left?

Margarita Gurri:

A great memory and sensation?

Yonason Goldson:

Yeah, except Except the sensation doesn't last very long.

Margarita Gurri:

But you can't recall it.

Yonason Goldson:

But you can. But what all that does is it makes you want more? Yes, it does, right. And when a person is in a state of joy, they're gonna be upset, they're gonna be downs. You know, there's really there doesn't have to be a contradiction between joy and pain. Some pains are good, right? I have not personally been through childbirth. I have I have I have it on good authority. It's not the most pleasant experience.

Margarita Gurri:

Oh, we wasn't bad. And it was so exciting.

Yonason Goldson:

Why do women put themselves in a position especially when they've been through a once? Why do they put themselves in that position? Because they know that that pain is necessary to bring about something that is supremely valuable. It is so worth it. And and you know, one of one of our recent rabbis Rabbi know, Weinberg, he said, you ask people, what's the opposite of pleasure? They say pain. But then you ask them, what's your greatest pleasure? And they say, your children? What's your greatest pain your children? That's the universe universal. They go hand in hand. It's the it's the struggle. And I think even there, again, it's a misunderstanding of the word pleasure, because children are not necessarily pleasurable. But they certainly can bring us joy. Well, and they

Margarita Gurri:

can be very pleasurable, but nothing's with kids, because they're growing up, of course, is not pleasure palace, you know, on a, you know, 100%, you know? So let's go back to the issue of happiness then, in looking at some of the research and some of the philosophers, that no one seems to agree on what joy and happiness is. And one of the things that you and I were talking about is that maybe we don't agree on much, but that joy does seem to be blessed with a bit of grace, that there's some sort of spiritual component too much of joy. And not necessarily to happiness is that are we in agreement on that as a as a starting point for this discussion? Or nowhere?

Yonason Goldson:

Can you develop that idea a little bit more for me, for sure.

Margarita Gurri:

So some of the more controversial

Unknown:

readings that I've

Margarita Gurri:

that I've come across, and people with whom I've spoken, take it to a different level that I don't agree with that. That joy is comes from God and Heaven only and happiness is secular. Its day to day and one's internal one's external. I don't agree that my point of view is that I believe, for me, joy, could be a happiness that's imbued with grace, some spiritual extras, supersize element of connection, of pleasure, of ecstasy and whatever. And that's how I see it. Now. I don't know if you agree with that. What do you think, Rabbi?

Yonason Goldson:

I think there's definitely something to that. You know, I had a guest on my on my ethics panel, JC Glick. He's a former Army Ranger Lieutenant Colonel, we should have him on the podcast. Oh, yeah, let's do a really, really remarkable fella. And I we got into this topic, and I explained my formulation of joy and happiness as a function of purpose. And he pushed back. And he said he thinks that's wrong, because he said he thinks that people can have misguided purpose. And he felt that joy was really a function of connection. Yes, that's the grace. I agree exactly. And and I said that I didn't disagree with him, that when I say that joy is a function of purpose, one has to have a worthy purpose. And then one is connected to the goal, the ideal, which could be God. And at the same time, one is connected to all those who are engaged in the same purpose, which is what we talked about in the previous segment about love, that sense of connection through common purpose. So I don't see that there is an either or there. Certainly, people can make themselves very unhappy by pursuing the wrong goals and the wrong ideals and engaging in in in purposes that are not beneficial to them or to mankind.

Margarita Gurri:

And yet that is part of happiness, realizing that you're going down the wrong path, and getting excited about the failure or the frustration and then switching gears. So even in that misguided effort, I think there's a lot of happiness enjoy to find your, your main purpose or where you need to be to achieve the goals that you thought were good, maybe rewrite the goals, or rewrite the path to those stated

Yonason Goldson:

goals. Now that requires tremendous emotional maturity. You know, we don't like being wrong. You know what my my college professor Max birdie said, I don't understand why people complain about being disillusioned. I would like to be relieved of my illusions. And even as a college student, I I push back and I said, Well, yeah, but that's fine. Who wants that? are illusions we like, yeah,

Margarita Gurri:

no, I think I think many of us die die on that hill defending an illusion that can no longer be defended. I mean,

Yonason Goldson:

if you've ever had the unpleasant experience of being an argument, and suddenly realizing in the midst of the heated debate, you realize you're wrong.

Margarita Gurri:

Oh, anyway, double down and start arguing harder. Anyone with children knows the experience of discovering that they're wrong, as they tell us all the time. It's kind of interesting. So let's talk about happiness for a second. You know, I came to this country as a refugee. And I learned something very early on, when we were in Flagler Street in Miami. Not the best neighborhood in the world, we were in a little house with an orange sectional couch, I mean, just when we first arrived, next to the cemetery, and behind the firehouse, if that tells you it. And what I learned is that we choose happiness, because many other refugees came. And many of them brought their, their service, is that the right way you're saying with them, and they brought their pain, their their grief with them. And instead of embracing the freedom, the United States, my parents taught me happiness, because they would say I weird, my mother would say, We're in America now. We are free. Of course, we're happy. We are free. We don't have to talk about that. That man. She would never say Castro that man. We don't have to talk about him. We are Americans now. And we are grateful. So they chose to not tell me they were wealthy in Cuba. They didn't ever talk about what they lost, ever. I never heard them once complaining. Now maybe they did to my older siblings, as my twin sister and I were the two youngest by quite a few years. But I never heard it. In all the years I knew them. I never heard them complain, not once. No, she would complain about our manners. I have been. We've been in America too long. These children have bad manners, you know that? That kind of thing. But I learned that happiness was a choice. It's not only a state of mind. But it's in that sense, a state of grace. You choose your gratitude. You choose people that you hang with, you choose the news, you watch. If it's too negative, it's not going to make you happy. It happiness, I believe, is a choice. Do you agree or disagree with that? Steve?

Yonason Goldson:

I think that's absolutely right. And I think that that that really sums up so much of the popular discontent of our age, that sense of entitlement, if I'm entitled, that I really have nothing to work for. And so I have no purpose and why are so many rich people on Happy wire. Why do vital to successful people. I mean, I heard this story a while back, and I wish I could remember the name of the artist. Because I heard her tell it on in an interview and it was just so compelling to what she was a little girl. And she she was at her first school play. She wanted to be in the play. And so the next day, she tried out she got in the play. And then when she got the play well now she wanted to have a starring role. And she got the next time she got the starring role. And then she wanted to sing a solo. She can sing a song. And then she wanted to be a performance artist. And she became she wanted to record a song and she did and she wanted to record an album and she did and she wanted it to be successful. It wasn't she wanted to go gold and it did. And then the next one went platinum or the next one double platinum. And then she attempted suicide because she was in her early 20s. And what else is there? There was nothing else to strive for. And here's somebody who got everything she wanted. Perhaps too easy, perhaps too soon. And was left with now what's the rest of my life going to be about? It was such a sad story.

Margarita Gurri:

When see I see as psychologists have seen that so many times. And I think we forget that achievement. Whatever the metric is, whether it's money or certain levels of success, in our striving for that we can neglect our self love, but we can also neglect our relationships. Because without someone to share it with, without cultivating the love of good people all around us, life is indeed empty.

Yonason Goldson:

And to go back to your point about grace, when King David says in the Psalms serve God with joy, which suggests that if you're not joyful, you're not serving God. And if you are serving God, then joy should be the natural outcome of that that connection, that purpose, exactly we've been talking about. And it's not just God, it's, it's the divinity of every human being, yes, find relationships,

Margarita Gurri:

including ourselves. We have to treat each other as if we are dear. You know, it's interesting. And so many religions, cultures and superstitions dictate that love that happiness comes from suffering, that we must suffer. And I certainly don't agree with that. If we suffer, we can use that and as, as a calling card to, to dive into more joy and love and whatever. But I do not believe that suffering is a necessary element to happiness. Enjoy sacrifices, though. Well, yeah, I don't this is my there's my take on it. I don't believe that we can have joy and happiness without sacrifice. And let me explain. If I want to have a great relationship with someone, I have to sacrifice pettiness grudges, I have to sacrifice. Let's say someone's married, and they see someone that might be cuter or sexier. Will you sacrifice? Because you say no, because you work on the relationship that you hold dear. So I do not believe that we can have everything. I think we get happiness by choosing the things that matter. And by being grateful for those things we have, and back to the stoics a motor Fathi. If we have a bad thing happen, find a way to love it and look for the grace there. And there is happiness and joy within all events that feel good or feel bad. Without I think some sacrifice, not pain and suffering. I believe you cannot have joy.

Yonason Goldson:

I think that's a good try. Mic drop moment. Doctor and I made this dough on you rabbinic ordination. Oh, well, thank you. I was I was at a virtual lecture yesterday last night, and this was exactly the rabbi's point, that we have to let go pettiness, if we want to attach ourselves to more noble ideals, I would I would tweak it a little bit and say, you know, in the in the temple in Jerusalem, they would bring offerings of animals on the altar. And that's often translated into English as sacrifices. But that's not really the word that's used. The word for offering shares a route with a word for for intimacy. And what we talked about before of giving, we talked about love investment. Investing, is investing really a sacrifice. You're giving up something now, but I'm not really giving it up. I'm simply channeling it in a direction. I used to tell my students that when I was young, I had two goals in life. I wanted to be a trapeze artist in the circus I wanted to be and I wanted to be a sumo wrestler. Now, of course, I never really wanted either of things, things blinded by the making the point, you know, I could choose one or the other if I really wanted it, but I couldn't do both. Now, different body types. And maturity is recognizing you can't have everything. And if you try to have everything I mean, you know, we know dilettantes we've got 27 different degrees and never worked. Because they just can't narrow down your people who can't form intimate relationships. Because, well if I commit to this person, that means I can't play the field anymore. I can't all those other people out there.

Margarita Gurri:

Well, but that's when they're thinking of love is external to them. You have to have self love first. Love yourself, then it's easier to make those choices.

Yonason Goldson:

But it's also that focus that investment and yes, the inevitable a I'm going to cut out other options when I make one choice, but to think of as a sacrifice is perhaps not so helpful. Because then it get the sense of I'm looking at what I'm giving up. Well, I have to give up something to get anything.

Margarita Gurri:

But it is a sacrifice. But for the for the greater good. It is a sacrifice. But it's also for my good. Yes, it's also Yes. Also for your good, I agree.

Yonason Goldson:

You don't have to think of it as a sacrifice.

Margarita Gurri:

Well, that's because you're you're mature. But for people who are greedy or scared, they have to accept any sacrifice, if you've chosen Well, begins to be a blessing. It feels like a blessing.

Yonason Goldson:

But you'd have to work through it. And that's why I prefer to call it investments. But Well, I

Margarita Gurri:

agree it's an investment because but because I deal with so many people who are holding on one of my favorite images in like Homer Simpson is when he was trying to get the coke from the machine, the the soda machine, and he had his hand in there, but he couldn't get his hand down. But he had to let go of the coke. So he couldn't make a choice. He he could not invest in his freedom. He was stuck in the machine. I just

Yonason Goldson:

need to work on that one. But there is the famous monkey trap. Yes, yes. Where they put the wherever is the marbles or the whatever the monkeys want, they put it in, in a big burden where vase or urn around with a narrow opening and the monkey reaches in grabs a

Margarita Gurri:

handful, and then can't pull its hand out. Right.

Yonason Goldson:

And the hunter just walks up with a club and hits it over the head. It doesn't run away, because it can't let go.

Margarita Gurri:

Well, and life is a monkey trap. I mean, many ways. It's fascinating, isn't it? I love that

Yonason Goldson:

I decided to say grab too much you grab nothing. Grab, my

Margarita Gurri:

mother used to say, you can't ride. You can't ride two horses with one seat. And she would often say how many horses you're working on right now. You know, just like multitasking. So let's talk about multitasking. Two people get joy by looking at their texts and whatever. But they also have a tremendous sense of dread. And they're losing the opportunity to join other people to create new info. I

Yonason Goldson:

don't think they're getting any joy from that, oh, they're just getting a dopamine buzz?

Margarita Gurri:

Well, I think there can be a joy. There's a habit, but some of it is artificial joy. It's the brain chemistry.

Yonason Goldson:

That's and I think it's important to make that distinction that yes, you're

Margarita Gurri:

right. It is not true joy. But for some people if they have a joy in a topic or a community, that's a little different. But that's more complicated.

Yonason Goldson:

So as pleasure distracts us from the lack of joy in our lives,

Margarita Gurri:

it absolutely can. And one of the antidotes to friendship, let's go back to to picking people and deciding is not letting go of things like resentment, and dread. That is one of the monkey traps, or the idea of being right all the time, or being loved by everyone, or having everyone agree with us so so I'm going to ask everyone out there, what is what's in your monkey trap? What's keeping you in that in that container? Trap so anyone can bop you on the head? And take a look at it and what are you going to do about it? That's that's my thought about joy and happiness.

Yonason Goldson:

That's a great place to leave off and then I'd like to we can we can use that as a meme or, or a future article. What's in your monkey trip?

Margarita Gurri:

What's in your monkey chat? Let's do that. But actually, you and I should create a TED talk about that in a keynote. I like it. I think it's a good too. Well, as always, Rabbi it's been fun. This has been an episode of The rabbi in the shrink. Check us out on the rabbi in the shrink.com and join us for another episode. Thank you it may you find yourself allowing joy into your

Unknown:

thank you for listening to the rabbi and the shrink every day ethics unscripted to book Dr. Red Shoe, Dr. Margarita Guri or Rabbi Jonas and Goldson as speakers or advisors for your organization, contact them at the rabbi and the shrink.com. This has been a doctor Red Shoe production