The Rabbi and The Shrink

Episode #82: Keeping Speech Free w/ Breeda Miller

• Rabbi Yonason Goldson and Dr. Margarita Gurri, CSP • Episode 82

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How do we defend and secure free speech in a culture that is increasingly uncivil and disinterested in facts and logic?

This is the topic we take up when self-care guru, corporate trainer, and motivational speaker Breeda Miller joins The Rabbi and the Shrink.

Here are the bullet points:

The elements of free speech: ability, consequences, and responsibility.

Language and thought -- one can corrupt the other

Candor vs courtesy

The ability to disagree without being disagreeable

Is it okay to speak up when you don't understand the culture?

We can't legislate good behavior, but we can legislate responsible behavior.

Curiosity vs. judgmentalism.

Relationships can change hearts and minds.

Tone is integral to communication, and we have to give others the chance to know us.

We have to be willing to question where our beliefs come from.

Travel -- broadening our boundaries -- provides us the opportunity to appreciate different outlooks and perspectives.

Oppressive culture suppresses thought by controlling speech.

How do we engage people who reject facts and logic?

Challenge yourself to articulate opposing points of view.

Good intention, clear thinking, informed action lead to ethical decision making.

Free speech isn't free, freedom is earned, and rights go hand in hand with responsibilities.

Margarita Gurri:

Welcome to an episode of The Rabbi in the Shrink. This is Dr. Margarita Gurri. And then my favorite Rabbi

Yonason Goldson:

Yonason Goldson

Margarita Gurri:

And today we have my dear friend, Breeda Miller I Brita. Today the topic is free speech. My family had escaped a communist country, Cuba. And the idea of free speech is near and dear to me. So I'm going to ask the two of you Why is free speech such a big deal? Go ahead read.

Breeda Miller:

Well, I think it's a big deal, because it's the essence of being in a free country, I think. But I think the challenge today is the confusion between the ability to say anything you want, and the right to say, what you feel and what you believe. But, but people seem to be confused about there are often consequences when you utilize that or you have a misunderstanding about a sense of the appropriate and if someone suggests that something should not be said, then they are being canceled, or they are being harmed or limited in some way. So some of it is courtesy. Some of it is just I think, a mis guided thought process about what free speech really is.

Margarita Gurri:

How's that? Great start robot?

Yonason Goldson:

Yeah, absolutely. One of my favorite quotes is by George Orwell, that if, if, if, if thought can crop language, language can also crop thought, and freeze three, free speaking and free thinking go together, we have to be able to be articulate, to know what words mean to use words with respect. And to your point for you to about the canceled culture, which is really just an extension of political correctness, being afraid to say what things are, for fear of, of giving offence, which is not to say we shouldn't be civil, and respectful. But we shouldn't be afraid of calling things by their proper names. We shouldn't be afraid of ideas. When we engage with one another, thoughtfully, respectfully. Constructive disagreement means that we don't have to agree all the time. But we're in search of the truth. We're trying to understand each other better. We're trying to understand our different perspectives better. And if we shut that down, what we're doing is we're destroying the integrity of thought. And once that happens, we're we're headed in a really dangerous direction. So we know fear

Margarita Gurri:

of consequences is one of the reasons why we may not speak up. But there are certainly other reasons, including I think, I think we're losing the understanding of how to say things in a constructive way. Is it okay

Breeda Miller:

for me, I'm sorry. Go ahead. Reminds me of you know, the ability to disagree without being disagreeable. Well said,

Margarita Gurri:

Rena Miller, and Kim, Rita is a perfect choice for this topic, because not only is she a dear friend, whose opinion I value greatly, but she is the creator, the playwright, and the only perform of a one woman show Mrs. Kelly's journey home and talk about a journey for free speech. Being in a new culture, is it okay to speak up when you don't understand the culture? Well, isn't that what we are? Now? Wherever we are, there's a culture we don't understand. The young kids with their pronouns, I'm trying really hard. And I have a grandchild who's 13. Like, I call them the they have one. And they are teaching me about the culture of my ability to have limited free speech with pronouns out of respect. And doesn't it make sense to be respectful, even if it explodes my brain a little bit? Why is it I mean, why can't we legislate the issue of inappropriate speech? Why can't we just legislate that? That's the question that Paula Tuchman asked.

Yonason Goldson:

I think it really comes.

Breeda Miller:

I'm sorry, go ahead.

Yonason Goldson:

It comes down to what ethics is all about. The difference between ethics and compliance. Compliance is a structure but you can't rely on compliance to do your ethical thinking for you. You can't legislate The good behavior it has there has to be a desire to behave well. And well we need laws. Because those those are the, that's the skeleton on which holds a society erect. The flesh and blood and sinew of a society is our willingness to understand how we should behave, how we should engage people, what's a proper way of expressing ourselves?

Margarita Gurri:

Well, we so if, if I'm gonna, if I'm in government, and I want to incite a crowd, to charge the Capitol, why is that not okay? Don't we have free speech? I know I'm misbehaving by asking this question. You are? I know. Thanks for noticing. So the whole issue is if I'm in a theater, um, am I not allowed to shout out fire? No. So what are the consequences, the injurious consequences. And sometimes this speaking, thoughtlessly is incredibly irresponsible, that I believe can be legislated the consequences of what we say But why am I not allowed to shout fire in a crowded room

Breeda Miller:

because people can get hurt. And now if if there was an actual fire, and you were doing it with your intent was to save lives, so people would evacuate in in a safe manner. I guess that's okay. But if your intent is to cause chaos, if your intent is just to see what would happen and see if you could get a reaction. And then as a result, people would likely be trampled or hurt or damaged in some way. I think that's it. One, current cultural reference that when I think about free speech, and you were asking about, you know, ask, being able to ask questions, or being able to have difficult conversations, our dear friend, the great philosopher, Ted lasso, you know, one of my favorite quotes from from that television show, and I think it was originally set by Mark Twain, so please forgive me that I don't know the the origin. But it's when you when you have a conversation to be curious, not judgmental. And I think there is a difference between curiosity and asking people about their life or their actions or their beliefs, versus being judgmental and phrasing statements, or making accusations or judgmental, you know, those kinds of things. I, I think that's a really important caveat. So we do need to be able to talk about difficult things, as you well know.

Margarita Gurri:

And the difference is mindfulness. If I can stay curious, we had Darrell Davis, the rabbi and I on our show, and he stay curious. He's a jazz musician who happens to be African American. And he got curious about keh, keh, keh, and their thoughts and their position, and he started a series of respectful conversations where he listened. And he ended up changing the world. And he had a bunch of guys hanging up their robes, me just by being curious and mindful, is also very powerful person personally,

Yonason Goldson:

over 200 members left the kk k, not because he will, he started off convincing them they were wrong. But he simply gave them the opportunity to get to know him. And he got to know them. And those relationships led them to give up their their membership. You know, you're what you're saying, breed if I say to you, what's that supposed to mean? Well, it may be, it may be linguistically a question. But it's not asking you a question. I'm I'm making a statement, it's an attack. So tone is integral to communication. And there has to be that real desire to understand where others are coming from.

Margarita Gurri:

So beyond relationships, when we listen the way Darrell Davis did, we're also giving people a chance to explain like what you talked about in your TED Talk by by that? Do we question whose value is it that we're espousing it? And what makes me think that is it automatic? Because my mother or father or grandfather believed did or my favorite teacher mean, questioning ourselves without being mean or harsh or judgmental? is critical. Just as critical is trying to understand someone with curiosity? Rita, you had something to say?

Breeda Miller:

Yeah, I'm thinking about travel and the importance of experiencing other cultures firsthand and meeting people where they are Are and, and learning that we are far more alike than we are different. But if you live in a bubble, surrounded by people who look like you believe as you do, stay in the same place your entire life. It's very easy, I think for those people to feel threatened by anyone who's different, the other, and then to get sucked into this mindset of they are in danger. And they have something to fear people who look differently or believe differently or behave differently than themselves. And you know, that it's, it's terrifying. And I unfortunately, I think COVID exacerbated that problem where people not traveling and staying hunkering down for a good reason. But I, you know, this not travelled just for pleasure, but really what it does to one's brain in one's mind and one's heart. That's, that's one solution that I, I, I hope people will be able to do more of,

Yonason Goldson:

yeah, there's a there's a joke. Two guys are sitting at a bar. And they say to the bartender, settle a bet for us. We have the London Hilton or the Cairo Hilton. You can travel. But if you follow the tourist path, you can insulate yourself traveling just as well as you can insulate yourself at home, can actually go out and make the effort to meet people who are local, to engage them to try to understand them, just learn about them. That is broadening. And it teaches us that, you know, our view, our outlook on the world on humanity is not the same as everybody else's.

Margarita Gurri:

And Kevin's, I think that's what makes his business and family strong and communities.

Yonason Goldson:

Diversity should be all about his different perspectives.

Margarita Gurri:

Yeah, a long time ago, I taught at a progressive school, the Park School in, in Maryland. And it was amazing, just amazing. And there was a brilliant administrator Louise was made to her last name. Anyway, she was brilliant. And one of the things she did when we were picking new professors and teachers, were she invited kids from different ages. And we were also for any issue encouraged to invite anyone who was a vendor, anyone who was in our sphere of awareness, to get input, and try and understand all the possibilities, and how to think about something and how to respond in terms of creative and thoughtful solutions to things. I was very excited by being a part of that process. It's it gets the creative juices going to be sure.

Yonason Goldson:

I think go back to our original topic, the sages ask why the Torah was not given to the Jews while they were still in Egypt, why did they have to leave and go out into the desert? Good question, Rabbi. And that? Well, it's not my question. I'm just, I'm just recording and reporting here. But their answer is fascinating. They said that speech in Egypt was in exile. They said the culture was so oppressive, was so constrained, that it was impossible to articulate depth of idea in a meaningful way. The the labor was was dawn to nightfall. And it was relentless. And its people were so exhausted, were so completely overwhelmed. That there simply wasn't the capacity to think and you when you when you read 1984. And you see that, that Orwell describes a society where it's so oppressive, where people can't even think the language is being is being destroyed, to eliminate ideas that are contrary to the party line. And when you look at the the movements in our society to do just that, to limit speech to control speech, and the challenge is that on the other side, what we're talking about is there is there has to be civility, there has to be empathy, there has to be a sensitivity at not all SP all speech is appropriate and it's the struggle to resolve that gray area of what's proper. What's improper. That's where our humanity comes from. That's where that was mixed society helping.

Margarita Gurri:

So let's let's wind down and talk now about what we can do about it now. And I'll ask each of you to Didn't you both very wise, you both very practical people? What can we do now? When there is a problem with free speech? Because when things are going well, we all know what to do you encourage? I mean, that one's an easy peasy one, right? But when there's a problem, I think is when we are getting into Kancil culture, or restricting speech. being incredibly threatening, or feeling threatened. So what can we do now? The challenge that

Breeda Miller:

I have is, when I interact with people who I'm related to, a, a belief system, they believe things that I know, to not be true to be facts. And the best thing that I can do is to be civil. I spoke with an individual the other day about COVID. And I said, that I'm so grateful that no one in my household has contracted COVID. And were vaccinated. And you know, that's great. And his response was, Well, you should come down to Florida, you know, we didn't have it here. And we don't have it. It's fine. Nobody was mad, it's fine. And I took a deep breath, and I paused, knowing who I was speaking with. And I said, millions of people died. And his response was, Well, they probably would have died anyway.

Unknown:

And I had

Breeda Miller:

nowhere to go. And so I realized, I know who I'm talking with, and I was civil. And I made my I made a point. But I really didn't think I could go any further. And that's one of my frustrations is, I guess, knowing your audience is always important. It wasn't a life or death situation. It wasn't threatening to me. I certainly wasn't in any danger. But it was just espousing a point of view that is simply false. And it's it, it breaks my heart.

Margarita Gurri:

Well, logic certainly does not have to interfere with anyone's opinions at times. Not a constraint for so many rabbis.

Yonason Goldson:

Yeah. And, you know, great in that type of situation, all you can do is to sort of extricate yourself politely, because there really is nowhere to go. But you know, there are people on both sides that want to engage. You know, I wrote an article after the January 6, events. And, and I said, I made a statement, I said, Donald Trump is responsible for the insurrection and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. And then I said, if you agree with this, write a short essay supporting the opposite point of view. And if you disagree with it, do the same. Now, I got it, I got a significant amount of comments. Some people said, There is no other side. I got that for both sides. But I also had people who wrote me and said, I did what you said. Andy, it was very, it was very enlightening. It helped me understand the other side, they got that for both sides, too. So there is hope that we can bridge this distance, you know, we did it on this show. We had Scott Mason on and I come from a big book biblical value system, he is gay, and we had an open conversation about how it's possible for us to engage each other. And I think that's probably the proudest moment I have from this entire podcast, that we could do that. And we can do in our private lunch. We can look for people who come from different points of view, and we can say, you know, you have that look, that's very different from mine. Mine is different from yours. Could we just try to understand each other a little bit better?

Margarita Gurri:

Yeah. And that was possible because Scott Mason's a brilliant thinker, with a good heart, and he wanted to understand and he wanted to be understood and same as you. And it was a pleasure to hear the two of you talking about that is fascinating. I was very back down

Breeda Miller:

to the intent what what is our intent is

Margarita Gurri:

let's let's go back to intent because with the fire if my intent is to save lives, I'm still being irresponsible and dangerous and causing arrived by shouting fire. So we cannot have intent that's free of understanding its consequences, intense a good place to start. But we really do also have to understand the laws and the principles of human behavior. You know, if the intent is to save lives, And I think that the air pressure is wrong in an airplane and I break a window. That doesn't mean that what I did was safe. So I think we have to inform our thinking and our actions with questions that we all ask ourselves, you know, what goes behind that? Why do I think that? Why why is this is okay or not? Okay? Is there a different way of looking at it? And that was one of my questions that I raise a few kids. And I would say, Well, how do you think they thought about this? What's their point of view? And my father would would also say, so if you had the rock in your hand, why did you throw at the little Cuban girl, he would ask us? And I thought, well, that's not a good question next. But he made us have empathy and compassion, but also a 360 view that would help us have more personal power. So I think for me, one of the answers is no yourselves. Ask yourselves what you really believe in why? What are the consequences of speaking up about it? Like, like, you know, Brita, you decided it was a conversation, that was a good time to let it go. Right. So those are my thoughts. Anyone else have final words for our free speech? Discussion?

Breeda Miller:

Maybe free speech isn't free. There are consequences.

Margarita Gurri:

Freedom is earned by good choices and good hearts.

Yonason Goldson:

Yeah. And then in this country, we have so much focused on our rights, we really need to focus more on our responsibilities. Because they go hand in hand, if we aren't responsible, we aren't going to keep those rights, because society will disintegrate.

Margarita Gurri:

And I agree with that justice, freedom is earned with the sacrifice of our military and other people who have the courage to speak up or act well. And be kind. All right, everyone will thanks for joining the rabbi and the shrink. Brito we're just delighted that you joined us. Why don't you spend one second, tell us about when is your play up? When? Where can people buy tickets, man?

Breeda Miller:

Oh, my goodness, you're so good to me. Well, my website is Brida b r e da miller.com. And I keep things posted there all the time. But the next performance will be February 5 in Trenton, Michigan. And it's available tickets are available on Eventbrite. And then I'll be in Florida, on Valentine's Day at Vero Beach, Florida. And I just found out I will be in Chicago on March 10, at the Beverly Art Center. So things are happening. Really exciting. And probably

Margarita Gurri:

my join you in March.

Breeda Miller:

I would love that. That would be nice.

Margarita Gurri:

And how about Ireland? You're having an Irish tour, too.

Breeda Miller:

Yes. Anybody who has ever dreamed of going to Ireland Come with me. We're having a great excursion and Rabbi, you'll be happy to know that while we will have a group, we will have plenty of time to interact with people and get to know people, many of them my cousin's, I think, but I it's next September, and it's called Mrs. Kelly's Journey Home Tour of Ireland. 10 days, we're going to have a blast. And I'm also going to have an opportunity to perform the show in Ireland, which is

Margarita Gurri:

wonderful. Well, I think it's wonderful. I knew Brito when it was just an idea in her head, and I saw it come to fruition. And

Breeda Miller:

many times I think, you know, this script, sorry,

Margarita Gurri:

I have seen it so many times. I do know the script. And I have to say without sounding patronizing. I'm very proud of our breeder Miller. Talking about free speech, she decided to take an issue and share it with the world to open hearts and minds. So there we go. Well, this has been the rabbi and shrink and we will see you in another episode.

Breeda Miller:

Thank you for listening to the rabbi and the shrink every day ethics unscripted to book Dr. Red Shoe Dr. Margarita curry or Rabbi Jonas and Goldson as speakers or advisors for your organization, contact them at the rabbi and the shrink.com. This has been a doctor Red Shoe production